8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 PMPS 273+2=250+4=225

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Marilyn and Sheldon

Member Since 2014
Yesterday

Recap 8/4

271 AMPS
305 +2
266 +4
255 +6.5
305 PMPS
266 +2.5
236 +4.5
276 +7.5

Damp day in the neighborhood. Monsoons here in the high desert. Rain and thunder most of the night. And Polly hurked a firmly packed hairball this morning just before T/F/S.

Looks like it's time to move from 7.5 to 8.0. Although those greens two evenings last week held me back this morning. Again, I could use some advice. Uncharted territory for me.

New pen this morning, too. Guess I'm just being too cautious.

Off to work again.

Vines and wishes.

Marilyn and Polly
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288

Lucky you on the monsoons. Mid summer rains are good for the gardens although I can do without the thunder.

Looks like Polly might be thinking of breaking her bounce with that drop to +2. I'd wait to see where she gets to once the bounce from her greens two night ago is done, before planning an increase. Once kitty is getting into greens, we slow things down a bit. But this is where having the MSU test results can help guide us on how aggressive we need to be.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288

Thanks Wendy. I'm having trouble figuring out what might be a bounce and what might be a general oh-phooey-she's-numb-to-this-dose situation. Will hold off on the increase.

Will call vet today to see what might be available re: Polly's tests.

Marilyn
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288

i think she's definitely in a bounce right now from night before last's greens. But based upon you waiting through the last time for the full 3 days, it's likely to be a dose gone bad as well. however, i'd wait the 3 days from the low numbers anyway. it'll be good information if she does it again.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288

Marilyn, I still have trouble deciding if Cobb is bouncing or if the dose has gone bad. I leave that to Julie and Wendy to tell me! :lol: It's so nice to see Polly visiting the greens though. It's frustrating when you see them, and then they don't visit them again though, isn't it? :-x I sympathize completely.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

don't have copies yet. numbers via phone from vet.

Growth: reference 12-92. polly 311
iaa: reference 20. polly 36

guess I've got some more learnin' to do.

But we'll keep plugging along. And we'll need help.

Marilyn
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Help is on the way!! :lol:

The results probably aren't what you wanted to hear, but at least you now know why Polly is insulin resistant.

The best advice I got after Cobb was diagnosed with IAA...ask questions. Ask LOTS and LOTS of questions! Ask questions, even you think they are dumb questions. Ask questions and, if you don't get an answer that makes sense, ask it again. If you have a theory, float it out there - at least I do. :cool: I like to read other people's theories and see how they apply to our situation. They might not apply, but you never know!
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

(((Marilyn))) Sorry about the results but now you have answers. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: You are not alone - we'll do what we can to help you. When I got the results it felt like a big relief as then I knew what I was up against. First things first, Polly is still the sweet little girl she was yesterday so keep on lovin' her the same.

At the New to the Group Sticky, there are a couple of links to high dose condition discussions. The IGF-1 number doesn't mean much other than it's positive. The actual number doesn't have anything to do with the size of the tumor. Neko's IAA was 52, so Polly's is less and she doesn't seem to visit the red floors as much as Neko did, so that's a good thing for Polly. So are her recent visits to the green floor.

You must have a million questions. I did at this point of my journey with Neko. How can we help you?
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

I'm sorry about the results too. At least now you know what you're dealing with and can get a plan in place to help Polly. :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Suzanne & Cobb said:
Help is on the way!! :lol:

Funny, Suzanne. I live in a town famous as the setting for lots of 1940's-50' western movies and some TV shows (think Gunsmoke). I envision the Cavalry riding over the red cliffs west of me to save the day! Oh, I think I hear bugles. Thank God I hear bugles; I'm going to need the LL Cavalry.

The results probably aren't what you wanted to hear, but at least you now know why Polly is insulin resistant.

Absolutely. I'm almost relieved to have answers. Even if they aren't the answers I want.

The best advice I got after Cobb was diagnosed with IAA...ask questions. Ask LOTS and LOTS of questions! Ask questions, even you think they are dumb questions. Ask questions and, if you don't get an answer that makes sense, ask it again. If you have a theory, float it out there - at least I do. :cool: I like to read other people's theories and see how they apply to our situation. They might not apply, but you never know!

I will. But right now I don't know enough to even have any questions. My task at first is to find and read everything I can. And, of course, enjoy that Polly doesn't have a clue. And she's feeling fine. And she still likes to snuggle close on the couch for scritches. And she can hiss a good one at her sister Rowsie from time to time.

Thanks, Suzanne. Miss P and I will just keep plugging along and do the best we can. And the experience from LL will let us do a lot better than if we were floating out there alone.

Marilyn
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Wendy&Neko said:
(((Marilyn))) Sorry about the results but now you have answers. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: You are not alone - we'll do what we can to help you. When I got the results it felt like a big relief as then I knew what I was up against. First things first, Polly is still the sweet little girl she was yesterday so keep on lovin' her the same.

Thanks. I do focus on how well Polly feels. And I love that the sugar dance has turned her into a snuggle kitty. I can even pick her up from the floor now!

And I will need help. Right now, I just don't know enough to even know what kind of help we'll need. But I can learn. And I will learn.

At the New to the Group Sticky, there are a couple of links to high dose condition discussions. The IGF-1 number doesn't mean much other than it's positive. The actual number doesn't have anything to do with the size of the tumor. Neko's IAA was 52, so Polly's is less and she doesn't seem to visit the red floors as much as Neko did, so that's a good thing for Polly. So are her recent visits to the green floor.

Yes, I'm reading. And trying to process. Sort of like some lit finals I took in college when I tried reading all the books the week before the tests. Not much sticks. But I'll read again and and again...and then again.

You must have a million questions. I did at this point of my journey with Neko. How can we help you?

A few:

1. This will change the dose protocol, I suspect. How?
2. She's got both conditions. Do I focus on one or both. Or is our course of action the same regardless.
3. A selfish question. Will I ever be able to leave her with a pet sitter for a night or two at a static dose; no testing? (my pet sitter will shoot but won't test and wouldn't know what to do even if she saw pre shot numbers.

Thank you. I'm so relieved to have help. Woooo.

Marilyn
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

carfurby said:
I'm sorry about the results too. At least now you know what you're dealing with and can get a plan in place to help Polly. :YMHUG: :YMHUG:


You're right! I'm feeling almost energized to start learning. Miss P sends headbutts and thanks for your visit.

Marilyn
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Sorry about the diagnoses but, now you have answers.

The easy answer about the protocol is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When the pituitary tumor is turning off, you may have to take a big decrease to enhance your margin for safety. Some of how the increases and decreases are done is based on your knowledge of your cat. It's going to become more of an art than a science. In part, once the dose is over 10u for example, increasing by 0.25u doesn't really make much of a dent in the numbers. It can help to think in proportions vs. an absolute number. (Decreasing 0.25u at a dose of 2.0u is a lot different than decreasing by the same amount at 10u.)

Acro vs. iAA -- they will work in much the same way. Acro typically trumps IAA but you won't necessarily know which condition is effecting the numbers. If you opt to treat the acro with sterotactic radiation treatment (SRT), the IAA may come more to the forefront. Keep in mind, acro is not a diabetic condition. Diabetes is a side effect of acro which is due to a pituitary tumor that releases growth hormone. IAA is directly related to diabetes in that your kitty develops antibodies to insulin.

Just like most of us, you would probably want to reduce Polly's dose if you were gone and your cat sitter can't test. It's exactly what I do with Gabby. She doesn't permit anyone but me to test.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Here's my attempt at your first lot of questions:
1. This will change the dose protocol, I suspect. How?
2. She's got both conditions. Do I focus on one or both. Or is our course of action the same regardless.
3. A selfish question. Will I ever be able to leave her with a pet sitter for a night or two at a static dose; no testing? (my pet sitter will shoot but won't test and wouldn't know what to do even if she saw pre shot numbers.
1. The protocol per say doesn't change, but it does mean you should probably err on the aggressive side of things when increasing. You don't linger on a dose that isn't producing results. With acromegaly you are just trying to keep up with the output of the pituitary tumor but you need to be more aggressive to stay ahead of IAA. IAA is supposed to be self limiting - in humans studies have shown about a year. Naturally there's no research on cats. With Neko it took a little less than a year. With reductions, due to the higher doses, some people will do a larger reduction for one time only to drain the larger depot, then carry on with a new dose. I did that only once and only because Neko was traveling with us. As Sienne says, you have to learn what works for Polly. We've had members with IAA/acro cats see .25U increases/decreases make a difference at high doses, other not. When the IAA breaks, dose reductions can be fast and furious.
2. The saying is that acromegaly trumps IAA. IAA is a temporary condition and it means resistance to insulin, but can be overcome. Acromegaly is more important mostly because of the effects of the growth hormones. Read what you can about that. When Neko was found to have a heart murmur, I got an echocardiogram. Enlarged heart is a concern for acros. I've also seen excess soft tissue in her gums. For dosing, I try to get Neko into a dose where she sees nadirs of 70s. For her, I've found that range reduces bouncing. And one other thing which relates to the protocol, you don't need to increase with the goal that Polly earns deductions. My goal is to keep Neko below renal threshold as much as possible.
3. Yes - you'll get to a point where you understand Polly's cycles fairly well. You can always have a pet sitter shoot a reduced dose for a few cycles. That's what other beans do for their diabetic cats too. I had a regatta I was attending a couple of weeks ago and was pretty sure I wasn't going to be able to get mid cycle tests, so I reduced the dose.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

fortunately, you're surrounded by help, marilyn. many of us have dealt with those conditions and we'll stick with you.

it's good to know what you're dealing with.

i agree with what everyone before me has said. in many ways, you keep on as you've been doing, but perhaps a little more aggressively. one thing that can vary from one cat with acro to another is how they respond to carbs. punkin reacted just like any of the other non-acro cats here. i gave him a teaspoon of gravy and his numbers came up. I think he didn't have a working pancreas, even though he had acro and initially they all do. but the Rand/Roomp study showed that 3 days at sustained high numbers (i think it was over 540 in the study) is enough to cause a pancreas to decrease its own insulin output by something like 97%. Whether or not she has a working pancreas is something you'll be able to determine by giving her carbs and retesting her in 3 hrs to see if the carbs bring her numbers down. Neko's P is a working one.

the significance of that is that you want to know how to handle low numbers. You may need to give more carbs to pull up numbers. if you give a medium carb, it might be enough to stimulate her pancreas to drive down the numbers - the opposite of what you want. this is a trial/error thing, but i think it's important for you to pay attention next time you see polly in greens as to how she responds to carbs. she isn't going to suddenly change just because you got this diagnosis. Her patterns are her own and as far as i've seen, they will remain the same.

For now, just keep up with what you're doing. You might consider whether or not you want to have Polly's tumor treated with SRT. Both punkin and Neko had it done at CSU. That's the only chance for remission for an acro cat, unless their tumor shuts down. some do, and the cats stop being diabetic. some cats have the SRT and they still don't go off. punkin didn't. neko hasn't, although she still could.

You might want to try managing her with just giving her the amount of insulin she needs. i'm pretty convinced that keeping cats in normal numbers is still an appropriate goal for acro/iaa cats, although there are people on the facebook group with high dose cats who disagree with me. There are plenty of cats who've done very well with staying in green numbers and basically following an amended protocol, Tommy for example.

That iaa is present, but fairly low. it might not have too much of an effect on things. we'll see. all cats have some iaa if they have insulin being injected into them. It's a foreign body, so the cat develops antibodies against it. iaa will run itself out, so people usually make dosing decisions based upon the acro.

big hug. you already knew this was likely the answer. knowledge is power. :YMHUG:
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

our son lived with us for a while after punkin was diabetic - he'd just finished college and he was willing to learn how to test punkin and give him shots. DH & I went for several days to California and our son took care of punkin - he'd call me with test results and i'd tell him what i wanted him to do.

you can reduce dose and get a petsitter just to give shots.

you can find places that allow pets - we go to a particular beach house regularly, and while the people usually don't allow pets, they let us bring punkin and anya with us. we took him along to a weekend overnight at a resort once, and we traveled with him to Colorado to get him treated, finding pet-friendly motels along the way and in Ft. Collins.

yes, you can and should still have a life.

adding to Wendy's comments - you're going to want to read those couple of posts at the bottom of the New to the Group sticky about acro. I already linked them for you, but you might see them now with fresh eyes. One common issue is excess throat/airway tissues that cause a snoring sound, even when the cat is awake. punkin had that - it went away after the SRT. The acro deepened punkin's voice - he sounded like a pack-a-day smoker! that really didn't change post-srt. the symptoms he had from the excess growth hormone included big feet, big tongue (child-sized), enlarged colon (which improved post-SRT), and rattling breathing (called stridor). Many acro cats seem to get to a dose that stays stable around 20u. as i said, i think it helps to keep the dose down if you try to keep her under 200 as much as possible. Glucose Toxicity plays a part in the dose size getting bigger. There is a post on that in the New to the Group sticky, in the same section as the other single-topic posts.

i don't want to overwhelm you with too much. getting this diagnosis can bring on more attention than you want and for some people that has been very difficult.

let's take it one day at a time.
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Marilyn, Of course I don't have any advice or even any solid understanding of the challenges you are facing, but I know that it has to feel better to have some answers rather than being left in limbo land( been there done that) I just wanted to offer hugs and encouragement, I can tell by reading your posts that Sweet Polly is going to do just fine in your loving hands, plus the support from the absolute angel advisors here on this forum. :YMHUG:

(I just had a big long post disappear on me because somehow my tablet logged me out, grrr!)
 
Re: 8/4 Polly AMPS 344+2=288+7=305 MSU RESULTS!

Hi there :cool:

I didn't know you were awaiting results - glad to see you got Polly tested.
Now you can roll up your sleeves and get down to business ;-)

You have received guidance today from the voices of experience.
I don't want to overwhelm you with additional info on IAA today.
Just to let you know Polly will be under my radar and I'll pop in where appropriate.

I will say from the IAA side of the house that 36% is not bad - it's closer to normal than it is to extreme.
Also Polly does see green from time to time - which is good

Gotta find the bright spots :cool:
 
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