8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131 +2 156

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Paula

Member Since 2014
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=122796
Good Morning wonderful people!
Michael started today with 266 which is lower than pmps +2 358 from yesterday. Maybe he will keep going down and hopefully stay in safe #'s. I gave 1 u @5:15am. It seems he stays somewhat steady for a few cycles on 1 u then plummets. Should I reduce to .5u @pmps tonight? I wish to heck I knew what I was doing.
Is he starting to clear his bounce from 8/2?
By trying different doses, I am afraid that it will kill him.Doesn't his body have to get use to the insulin? Will things ever become consistent? Again, I'm terribly confused!
Thanks all for being so patient. (You must be wearing your patience pants. LOL)
Paula (Michael's Mom)
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

Can't really give dosing advice, but I do know that you don't want to be trying different doses, unless it is in line with the protocol for when to reduce and increase doses.

That is a nice AMPS and hopefully he will slide down to the blues for you today.

Remember that Michael's body has been thinking that the higher numbers are "normal" for him. So when he goes below what his body is used to (even though those numbers aren't actually normal), his pancreas goes OH CRAP I am below my normal, I must kick in and start producing insulin and quick! Which is the wonderfulness that is a bounce.

My understanding is the bouncing in a way is helping his body learn what is normal and his bounces will hopefully not be as extreme or common as his body gets used to the lower numbers. Take a look at Skooter's spreadsheet. He was AAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL over the place for the longest time. It has really been in the last few weeks where I think his pancreas is finally learning to embrace those lower numbers and not fear them :)

You are doing an awesome job!!!!
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

since you're in an earlier time zone, you'll want to always recheck your previous day's posts (condo) before you shoot in the morning, if there is anything unusual that has happened that day.

I posted this to you last night:

julie & punkin (ga) said:
Hi Paula!

it was fine to give the 1.0u tonight, but tomorrow morning you really need to reduce to 0.75u, even if he's still high. it's important in a newly diagnosed cat to take reductions of the full 0.25u when they go below 50 so that when the bounce clears he won't be overdosed.

His bounce might last up to 3 days from today, so in other words, he might be high until Tuesday evening. If he is, don't worry. He will come down. He might come down before then - there's no way to predict it at this point. However, at the point he comes down, you don't want him to be overdosed.

The high numbers this evening are also from having skipped his dose this morning. It was fine to skip this morning, but next time just know you have more choices than just skipping.

From the Shooting & Handling Low Numbers sticky:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy

A good plan for the next time you have a number that is too low to just shoot (for newbies, we suggest if it's less than about 150) post here and ask for help walking through it. While you're waiting for someone to help you make decisions, don't feed Michael. We'll want to see his blood sugar rising and then you can shoot as soon as it starts up.

In any case, don't panic about his high numbers tonight. The combination of a bounce + a skipped shot means high numbers, but they aren't a crisis and they will pass, probably by Tuesday night. big hugs - it's nerve-wracking when you're starting and no one expects you to already know all of this. that's why so many of us stick around to help teach.

enjoy the night off of testing since he's high and have a good night's sleep! see you tomorrow. :YMHUG:

Please for certain reduce his dose tonight. It's really important for you to go to 0.75u instead of continuing with the 1.0u dose. We know that dose got him into the 40's, and for his safety, he's going to need less at this time.

You probably want to get a +2 so we can see what he's doing today, and then i'd encourage another test around +5 no matter what. Newly diagnosed cats can clear bounces quickly and go down the dosing scale quickly sometimes, so we need to know how low he's getting in case he needs help.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

Thanks Skootersmom,
I feel better. I peeked at Skooter's SS and I see that Michael is doing the same thing that Skooter was doing. Bouncing?
Every time there is a bounce, do we start all over until the #'s are consistent? ex. stay with the same dose? This is what is so confusing. Maybe I need to get on my patience pants on.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

we might have been posting at the same time - i want to make sure you see what i said above about Michael's dose.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

Thanks Julie,
I gave the 1u this morning. I didn't see this until a few minutes ago. I will test +5 And try to reduce to .75 tonight. In the future, before I shoot, I will try & check the previous condo for any new messages.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

I would test at +2 also, just to see how fast his blood sugar is moving today.

Glad you saw it - it's really easy on here to miss posts sometimes! especially if people are posting at the same time, which often happens if someone is having low numbers and multiple people are helping. :-D

When you move to 0.75u tonight, just look at the lines of the plunger and the unit markings in relationship to each other. i'm thinking you don't have 0.5u markings - is that right?

one thing that can help is if you make a sample syringe of what you think 0.75u looks like, using colored water (tea, coffee) and save that syringe. then when you draw up the dose again, you can compare against your sample. your 0.75u doesn't have to look like anyone else's - you just want to reduce from the 1.0u and then be able to replicate the dose again and increase/decrease it as needed.

if you have trouble seeing the dose, you can stack 2 pair of reading glasses on your nose! looks ridiculous, but it works. also, every craft store sells magnifying glasses either on a stand or that can clip to something like your kitchen cupboard door. that can really help. if you still have trouble, both ella/rusty and anne/liz/zener use optic lenses like a jeweler uses and they could refer you to their sources.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266

Glad it helped you to take a look at Skooter's spreadsheet.

As for what to do with dosing when they are bouncing, that I leave up to the "experts" and I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too new to be considered one of those :-D

I still have trouble confirming when he is clearing his bounces, when he does bounce. I sure as heck can see them when they start though!


As for the patience pants, I am not one to give advice that I can't seem to follow myself...I am still rather impatient myself and I want him to feel better now, darnnit!

Sending safe surf vines to Michael.....
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152

Hi Julie,
I do have 1/2 markings on the syringe but it is still hard to see .75. I will just have to do the best I can for now.
I just tested @ +5 Bg 152 so he is going down. Does that indicate he will keep going down?
I have to go out for a couple of hrs. today I hope he will be ok. I'll leave food for him. I should be back around 4 pst.
Do I give .75 u pmps?
Thanks,
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152

if he's clearing the bounce and skipped shot, which it looks like he is, he might keep going down. he's not dropping too fast, though, so that's good. i think if you need to go out, i'd go right now, if possible, then check him when you walk back in the door.

yes, even if his numbers are high, you want to go to 0.75u tonight.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152

ah, i just reread and realized maybe you have a specific thing to go to from 2-4pm. that's 3.5 hrs from now, so i'd check him again in 2-3 hrs and see where he's at then, before you go out.

if he's lower than 100, leave him plenty of low carb regular food while you're out.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152

Julie.
A big thank you!
I will try to test before I go.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152

:-D you're welcome. there is so much to learn with this - we all understand the steep learning curve! keep asking questions!
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

Hi Julie,
I just gave (I think( .75u pmps) I tried & tried to get the plunger between the 1/2 mark and the 1 mark.
I think I got it closer to the 1/2 mark because i didn't want to give 1u. I feel more comfortable with the .5 than the .75. The .5 I can see. (a Least I know its the right dose. .75 is way too hard to see and I'm not sure if i got the right dose. I have special prescrip. glasses and a large magnifying glass I use.
For now i will put .75 on the SS. Let me know if i should change it.
There has got to be a happy medium to this .25 dosing.
Thanks,
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

i'm not sure what syringes you're using, but i've helped people in person with the Relion ones and i think they are MUCH harder to adjust by 0.25u than the Terumos. Whenever you need to get new syringes, you might keep that in mind. It seems to be hard to find the Terumos in the stores, so you have to allow time to mail order them if you want those. They just have a more slender barrel and it stretches out the markings, making it easier to fine-tune.

i'm sure whatever you did on the ss was fine. Just so you know what it means.

i'd get a +2 with Michael and see if he's going significantly lower than the preshot. He's doing well! that was a very fast recovery from the bounce, which is a good thing. that means his body isn't completely unused to normal numbers. Looks like he's headed back into normal numbers tonight.
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

Thanks, Julie.
I will do the +2. and look into the terumos syringes. Right now I am using Monoject 29G x 1/2" 3/10cc
I have been trying to regulate Michael for 4 mos. I hope this is the beginning of normal #'s.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

Hope doesn't decide to play bouncy ball!
BTW, I have been giving M tapazole in pill pockets. 1/2 of a pill pocket sid. I hope it isn't to much carbs.
Its the only way I can get the pill down him. I tried looking for the greenie pill pockets for dogs (duck & pea flavor) (even on line) but apparently they don't make that anymore.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

Thanks all for the replies and encouragement!
Thanks Darin for the link. I'm assuming if Petco on line carries them ,then maybe Petco by the tyler mall has them.
Paula
 
Re: 8/3 Michael AMPS 266 +5 152 +8 109 PMPS 131

i bought ours at a locally-owned small pet store.

if you're giving other pill pockets, Michael's getting some carbs with them. I think they're fairly high carb - if you look at the ingredients, isn't corn syrup in there? it may be making a difference in his numbers.

are you giving it in the morning or evening?
 
In the morning.
It looks like Michael is on his way up. (+2 156.) Might want to play bouncy ball!
 
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