8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/192

[Jen&Eddie]

Yesterday's Condo

Yesterday: AMPS/241, +1/274, +2/236, +2.5/256, +6/192, +10.5/313, PMPS/383 (dosecrease), +1/414, +2/376, +3/344, +4/298, +6/241, +7/224
Today: AMPS/147 (7%), +1/142 (18% + 1 drop karo), +1.5/92 (18%), +2/74 (15%), +2.5/75 (7%), +3/55 (8%), +3.5/50 (8%), +4/65, +4.5/75, +5/94, +6/195, +7/394, +10/314, PMPS/354 (4%), +1/335 (4%), +2/290 (5%), +3/192 (5% +14%), +4/203, +5/197, +6/177

Hi LL!

Eddie's condo; in which he demonstrates his bounce-clearing dive technique.

Glad I have the day off today, but Eddie's not going to let mamabean sleep in! That's OK though - even though I'm off work today, I have to do a couple telephone conferences, so I'm never really off work.

I'm trying an experiment with holding back on the carbs just a little bit to see if Eddie will surf without quite as much carbing. We'll see how that goes. I may need input on whether to continue with the increased dose experiment or not...

Marje - thank you so much for your thoughts on Eddie's condo last night. I noticed on Gracie's SS that she did the bounce clearing slide with a low pre-shot and then dipped low on you like Eddie's doing. I like the idea of maybe doing a late snack if he's doing an all-day slide. If Eddie's sliding, I can usually spot it fairly easily. DH's in the door test at +10.5 in the AM has been a pretty good indicator as to whether we're going to have a low PM preshot situation. Sometimes he goes back up before pre-shot, but maybe if I have DH feed a tiny bit of low carb at +10.5 on the days where Eddie's doing the long slide, it might give him just enough food on board to ease into the next cycle at little less dramatically. For the AM cycle, I try to drag myself out of bed occasionally for a +11, but I just can't force myself to do it very often.

Julie - thank you for your input on the use of R. I'm thinking that for Eddie, I don't think I could shoot at the same time as his L dose, as he drops too often for that to be safe. I'm thinking more along the lines of cutting off the bounce like you described. I really like your analogy of the backpack , and I think it could be a useful tool to help with Eddie's bouncing. However, I'm not going to consider adding R into the mix until I see what happens with the increase experiment.

I do like the idea of Levemir - but for now, I want to keep trying with Lantus. Eddie's done well with it in the past so I think he can do well with it again, but it looks like he wants to use Lantus a little differently than the standard protocol, maybe. Remains to be seen I guess. If/when the time comes, I'm guessing that our vet would probably be open to it. She's been awesome about giving us the green light to pretty much do whatever we want, although I don't think she has any cats on Levemir.

Hugs and vines to all in need today, especially for Billie - some feel better vines, Neko - some tummy and eat better vines, JD - some tummy and eat better vines, and to Tyler - some tummy and poo vines.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +4.5/75

Good job at preventing a drop under 50!! Surf it Eddie. Thanks for the help with Max. It's so appreciated.

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +5/94

Hi Elise! It makes my day to see Max doing so well - and I continue to hope that Eddie will get back into the swing and start copying Max again. :smile:

Eddie had a 50 point drop in half an hour from +1 to +1.5, which 18% + karo didn't stop, so that's probably more than sufficient to trigger the next bounce. At +5, Eddie's already starting to gain upward momentum. Bummer! I anticipate another rainbow day. :roll:

Makes me wonder if on these long slides, his nadir is actually at like +13 or +14 so he's nadiring from the last cycle at the same time as he's onsetting from the next dose. That might explain the crazy drops that are are almost impossible to stop.

 

[Deanna & Billie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +5/94

Billie says thanks for the vines!! They are much appreciated. I'm glad Eddie is getting in some green time today. Paws crossed that the dose increase helps to flatten him out!

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +6/195

Hi Deanna! Thanks for stopping by. :smile:

Well, full blown bounce by +6. D*mn. :sad:

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +6/195

Makes me wonder if on these long slides, his nadir is actually at like +13 or +14 so he's nadiring from the last cycle at the same time as he's onsetting from the next dose. That might explain the crazy drops that are are almost impossible to stop.

interesting observation! looking at his ss, i can see why you'd say that. It's hard to tell if he's bouncing most every cycle or if his cycle is really long. I think either way, the solution is what you've just done - increasing his lantus.

right now whatever you're doing is working - so keep it up! i can understand not wanting to tinker with it at the moment with R or Lev.

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +6/195

Makes me wonder if on these long slides, his nadir is actually at like +13 or +14 so he's nadiring from the last cycle at the same time as he's onsetting from the next dose. That might explain the crazy drops that are are almost impossible to stop.

interesting observation! looking at his ss, i can see why you'd say that. It's hard to tell if he's bouncing most every cycle or if his cycle is really long. I think either way, the solution is what you've just done - increasing his lantus.

right now whatever you're doing is working - so keep it up! i can understand not wanting to tinker with it at the moment with R or Lev.

Hi Julie! With Eddie's current dive/bounce pattern, he seems to head downward for a full cycle, and then drops like a rock early in the next, so maybe a "normal" cycle for him that covers something like 14 hours or so till nadir. Then, of course, he heads into a full on bounce, tries to clear a couple times, and then eventually does about 4-6 cycles later when he hits greens at the start of the cycle again.

Obviously ProZinc and Lantus work in very different ways, but on ProZinc, part of the reason we switched was because he regularly had 14-16 hour duration and really late nadirs that resulted in a lot of skipped shots and/or a ton of stalling. Eventually, we were more or less shooting as needed (as much as our schedule would permit). I had hoped given his propensity for long duration, Lantus would fit...allowing us to shoot much lower numbers, and it did for a while...

I was chewing on an idea...if he does have coinciding nadir and onset which is causing the early cycle drops, would it be worthwhile to try a one time reduction or skip when he's got a low pre-shot (like this AM), to prevent a drop and try to break the dive/bounce pattern? Or am I better off trying to prop him up during these early cycle dives, and hope that the higher dose will put a lid on the bouncing? I don't even want to see what the rest of today's cycle is going to look like with him going up 100 points to 195 at +6. :sad:

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +6/195

i've rarely seen a dose reduction work to eliminate bouncing - well, sometimes it does but it does so by leaving the cat in higher numbers that they aren't bouncing from.

in general, you want as much insulin in a cat as the cat will tolerate in order to get them flattened out and regulated. I'd go with your second option - propping him up to try to prevent the early cycle diving. Having the slightly larger dose of insulin will help take off the highs.

My image for that one is to think of putting a hand under Eddie's belly to lift up his sagging tummy, while pushing down on his back. You want to narrow the range he's moving throughout the cycle, even if it's to higher numbers. stopping the swinging from highs to lows is key to getting regulated, although there are some kitties who bounce all the way to OTJ.

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +7/394

i've rarely seen a dose reduction work to eliminate bouncing - well, sometimes it does but it does so by leaving the cat in higher numbers that they aren't bouncing from.

in general, you want as much insulin in a cat as the cat will tolerate in order to get them flattened out and regulated. I'd go with your second option - propping him up to try to prevent the early cycle diving. Having the slightly larger dose of insulin will help take off the highs.

My image for that one is to think of putting a hand under Eddie's belly to lift up his sagging tummy, while pushing down on his back. You want to narrow the range he's moving throughout the cycle, even if it's to higher numbers. stopping the swinging from highs to lows is key to getting regulated, although there are some kitties who bounce all the way to OTJ.

Deep breath. Putting on the patience pants. I definitely get the analogy with narrowing the range. My trouble is understanding the physiology as to how to get the bouncing to settle down without, as you pointed out, the usual response of higher, flatter cycles - and of course the practical challenge of keeping Eddie propped up when he does the dive in the AM cycle when I'm at work...I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy, but I'm not sure how workable this approach is going to end up being after my vacation is over. :YMSIGH:

Edited to add: +7 = 394!!!

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +6/195, +7/394

it seems to me that often, just getting a day or two of flatter cycles can make a world of difference. just depends on the cat. but yes, that isn't something you can do and leave a cat unattended.

my, that 394 is very impressive, eddie. :shock: way to show everyone what a REAL bounce looks like! ohmygod_smile

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147, +1.5/92, +3.5/50, +7/394, PMPS/354

Hi Julie,

You're totally right on the impact of flattening a kitty out. ECID but Eddie definitely is one where getting him to flatten out even for a few cycles makes a huge difference.

I know I have to give the increase a chance to work, but that bounce was/is pretty disheartening. Hopefully, the extra juice will help him turn it around tonight.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Looks like he's turning it around already. Slow and steady wins the race Eddie! Sliding is easier on the bean than diving.

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Looks like he's turning it around already. Slow and steady wins the race Eddie! Sliding is easier on the bean than diving.

Yeah, that +3 is a bit of a surprise. :shock: It will be interesting to see where he goes tonight. I added a tiny bit of leftover 15% to his fourth supper to see if it will slow him down a little, but I think I probably missed the opportunity to stop the drop.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Wow, can you slow down, Eddie? You have 12 hours.

 

[MollynSkooter]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Eddie, your killin us with those drops!

Why is it that our kitties seem to think they have to EVERYTHING in like the first 2-3 hours....I always tell Skooter, you have 12 hours in this cycle...share the love....

Hopefully Eddie starts listening and slows down a bit....

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Eddie, your killin us with those drops!

Why is it that our kitties seem to think they have to EVERYTHING in like the first 2-3 hours....I always tell Skooter, you have 12 hours in this cycle...share the love....

Hopefully Eddie starts listening and slows down a bit....

I know, right?? :roll: Eddie used to usually be a later nadir kitty...until he wasn't anymore...Looks like the little bit of FF Medley's did stop him. Hopefully he'll take it down a little slower tonight.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Wow on the +3 tonight.

As I indicated about Gracie on Lantus....she did the same thing as Eddie. For the longest time, I had to shoot dropping numbers Into the 50s and then work like a dog to get her up before she onset. That is one of the reasons we switched to levemir. It did get better when I started feeding late cycle meals just before +10. It would help to slow down the insulin and shorten the duration a bit. But we switched before I got it "perfected".

It might be better to try Julie's suggestion and feed higher carb food at PS, +1, and +2. If you can flatten him out to stop the drop, you can perhaps avoid the bounce.

The whole goal is to flatten the cycle....then the dive bounce circuit can stop. Hopefully I'm trying to do it with R. I think I have the right basal dose but she's diving and bouncing. If I can stop the bounce, then she doesn't have so far to come down.

We will all keep working on it with you!

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

It might be better to try Julie's suggestion and feed higher carb food at PS, +1, and +2. If you can flatten him out to stop the drop, you can perhaps avoid the bounce.

Hi Marje!

Thanks for stopping by. With the cycles that look to be bounce clearing, I have been feeding higher carb (18%) and/or karo at +1 and +2 (if he's still dropping like a rock). If my pre-shot is green, I've been feeding (usually) 7% or 8% at pre-shot. At one point, when we had a really low pre-shot a couple months ago, I was told at that time not to feed higher carb at pre-shot, but the game has changed since then. And just to clarify, by "higher carb," are we talking higher low carb or actual HC? Should I also be feeding the higher carbs when Eddie's bouncing, like tonight? If so, again...higher carb low carb or actual HC?

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

I think I would use a higher low carb all the time and then add the H as you need it. It won't happen over night but at some time, he might flatten out.

I also didn't pull my two ideas together......when he's coming down, feed a snack before +10 and then feed the higher LC at PS, etc.

 

[Jen&Eddie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

I think I would use a higher low carb all the time and then add the H as you need it. It won't happen over night but at some time, he might flatten out.

I also didn't pull my two ideas together......when he's coming down, feed a snack before +10 and then feed the higher LC at PS, etc.

Got it! Thanks for clarifying. I've been reluctant to feed the higher LC when he's bouncing, but moving forward, we'll just stick with the 5-7% which is the normal food range - used to be 0-3%.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 8/29 Eddie AMPS 147 +1.5/92 +3.5/50 +7/394 PMPS/354 +3/1

Sorry about that. It's starting to get into my "brain disconnect" time...in other words, bed time. :lol: :lol: :lol: