8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEIGHT

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Shai and The Pirate Fitz (GA)

Member Since 2012
Fitzel's Condo

Ack. Didn't hear the alarm this morning and got all off schedule. The Pirate's AMBG is really a +1 - and thankfully no insulin is warranted - :YMSIGH:

This blueness to yellowness is getting very old-ness. I wish I could figure out what it means - am I draining her shed in the morning by not shooting, just to refill it at night? Yet, shooting low means a hypo incident for her and that is the scariest thing of all. She was so exhausted by those back to back crashes.

I'm hopeful she'll even herself out. Her 5P were all in place this morning - and she's sleeping in front of the open back door (screen locked) and just enjoying the first cool breeze we've had here in SoCal in about a month.

Off to finish morning medical Bean stuff.

Shai and Pirate Fitz
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113

Hi Shai, I am no expert so can't guess what is going on with Pirate Fitzel's shed. It seems you are already at the lowest dose, I dont see what you would shoot twice a day while avoiding hypo. I read that there are some rare cats that do well on one shot per day, is it possible Fitzel is one of them? Good luck with the next cycle and have a great day!
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

@Jane - hugs right back - thanks for checking in before bed.

@Leslie - Thank you for checking in on us. I really appreciate your input.

I thought I'd noticed Pirate Fitz losing weight a few days ago - felt down her spine and her ribs and feeling flesh I convinced myself - nah - she's fine. But this afternoon I saw that dreaded dip between her flanks and her hip bones and sure enough - now I can feel her ribs and a bit of her spine. I'm scared and completely confused as to what I should do.

Her appy hasn't been good, but her litter box habits haven't really changed. She's poops daily, sometimes twice, she's not peeing anymore than usual for her. Her water consumption has not increased. What I am noticing is a listlessness about her. I grab onto any sign that this is passing, but it inevitably shows up again during the day or night. This really started after those two hypo incidents back to back. Could those have broken something within her? Triggered a secondary diabetic issue?

She picked at her dinner tonight - nibbled at her favorite PureBite treat and spit out a second piece. Now she's up on her favorite sleeping place and is curled up out to the world. I'm so worried. I don't know what else to try here in treating her diabetes. As Leslie mentioned, we're already shooting so little. Her morning numbers are so low in blue - I'm nervous to shoot and send her into another hypo incident and now I'm nervous what I'm doing is making her sicker.

Okay, rambling. I guess I ramble when I'm scared.

Shai
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

Has her appetite been lessening since you got the kitten? I know her mood was low just because of the shots, it can take months to adjust
to a new cat.

Have you pulled out your typical cans of daily food and assessed the other nutritional values on them?
We get so wrapped up in the carbs that we don't pay attention to fat, and protein and fiber.
A cat that eats pure protein is usually quite svelte. Think of how skinny a wild cat is that lives on it's own eating birds.
It keeps them pretty lean.

I haven't tried any of the duck foods yet because they are so much higher in fat. You might want to try one and rotate it in your food cycle.
Depending on which one's you are feeding to Fitzel, you may have unknowingly chosen all the lowest fat food choices.


And I assume the kitten was checked out by a vet for parasites like worms. If Fitzel got something like that, that could affect weight.

That's all I've got.
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

Hi Shai. Tucker was looking a bit ragged and smaller. I started free feeding him canned food and made sure he had food available at all times. Also, I tried "FortiFlora" sprinkled on top the food. Boy he loved it and ate it all up!
Since he was OTJ, I think he's gained 1 pound and his fur looks great too!
Also, I put a small container of "Fancy Feast Appetizer" on top sometimes, and he licks that clean. Good luck!
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

@Rhiannon -
thanks for stopping by. It's really appreciated. Re: the baby; Amma was dewormed at the vet when she first went in at 4 weeks of age. She's 6 and a half weeks now. Amma is kept segregated from the other cats. She has her own room, her own toys and food bowls. Until she's at least 8 weeks old we can't get her shots or blood work. But, the other cats know she's there - and this has been very much on my mind re: the Pirate. (at least she still has the energy to growl at me when we do blood testing). Amma was in the house before those back to back hypo incidents and while Fitz wasn't happy about the intruder, it didn't seem to effect her appetite.

I never thought about the svelte protein look. That could very well be playing into this. And I like the Duck food idea. I've stayed away because the carb ratio has been higher in that than I wanted. Time to revisit. As well as to check out the nutrients other than carbs. Good idea

@Chris - I've heard of 'FortiFlora' but where would I buy this? Is it sold at pet food stores or markets or? I know I can probably find some FF appetizer. Great idea. I've thought about free feeding, but I've wondered if that would interfere with some of the glucose tests as there might be a food spike in there somewhere. I'm really glad to hear that Tucker is doing so well and has plumped up a bit. :mrgreen: Hope he and all the rest of the furrs at the Falls are having fabulous picnics and romping in the surrounding meadows.

Shai
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

If you look on Dr. Lisa's site, there is a formula for calculating daily calorie needs:
Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
If the amount of calories you're feeding is under this formula, Fitzel gets more food! If you're feeding close to this amount, Fitzel needs a visit to the vet to discuss the weight loss.
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

http://www.amazon.com/Purina-Veteri...ment/dp/B002CM7BOC/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20


feeding to avoid food spikes.
my cat takes 2 hrs 20 minutes to clear , I have discovered that by testing after the shot and when the numbers drop.
So I rarely test Shadow until 2 1/2 hrs after her breakfast/dinner is finished because I know it's a food number.
Marge told me to try to make the food absent time a little longer before the PMPS so I now try to feed no later than a +7 so there is a 5 hr
gap between food and PM shot.
so I feed at shots, usually a +4, and a +6 or 7. But if there is another one in there anywhere I just note it for my chart.
Shadow's influence tends to be on 25 or more higher than without food.
Of course she gets treats if I test her.

I haven't had to count calories because she's gained her weight back and feels pretty good to me.

Now Sienne doesn't agree with me on the high protein being hard to gain weight but I take that principle from the Southbeach diet.
The principle of that diet is to gve up carbs and the weight starts falling off.
I've done it, it works but who wants to live with only 1 carb a day for the rest of their life. ( skinny people, I guess :lol: )

Yes you can gain weight on an all protein diet but it's difficult because you have to consume a lot of calories. Your body has to convert it.
And the same principle, ECID applies to all individuals.
We all have different metabolisms, etc...
So do take another look at what you've been feeding Fitzel because you may have inadvertently picked the lowest fat ones without meaning
to.
Everything in moderation.... works for just about every aspect of your life. :-D
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

Sienne and Gabby said:
If you look on Dr. Lisa's site, there is a formula for calculating daily calorie needs:
Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
If the amount of calories you're feeding is under this formula, Fitzel gets more food! If you're feeding close to this amount, Fitzel needs a visit to the vet to discuss the weight loss.
Click to expand...
i second sienne's comments. we often tend to look at amounts fed rather than calories consumed.
free-feeding is fine...
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

I like to call it the "Catkins" Diet. I think our kitties will put the weight back on because their bodies are regulated now. The FotiFlora is great to have anytime their appetite is a bit lacking. I bought mine on Ebay and got a $5. rebate coupon too. I couldn't believe how the kitties gobbled it down!
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

Hi Shai,

I'm reading through your condo and looking at the spreadsheet, and I have a couple of other questions... First, I agree with Sienne's suggestion to calculate the number of calories you are feeding Fitzel and be sure she is eating enough for her weight. If she is, then I also agree with seeing the vet and having some bloodwork run to see if anything is going on. Rapid weight loss is a concern, but there are way too many things that could cause it to try to guess. A senior blood panel should give some clues (be sure they test her thyroid too).

Have you been checking for ketones? I would, since you have reduced her insulin. Usually we don't see ketones developing in cats whose numbers are this good, but it does happen sometimes so definitely get a ketone test. That is an easy thing to rule out.

My other thought is that I'm wondering if you might be able to shoot as soon as you see a number over 150, as long as it has been at least 12 hours since her last shot. For example, today when you saw the 212 you could have given a shot then since it had been 20 hours since her last shot. Obviously that will only work at times when you are home to catch the rise in numbers, but it looks like you can do it sometimes. Just a thought that might help her hold the numbers a bit lower.

The other idea is that you might be able to lower the no-shoot number a little bit, maybe to 140. I would do it the first time when you can be home to see how she responds. Overall her numbers are running higher now than they used to, so I don't think it will be as dramatic as it was before, but of course I can't be sure about that.
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

I'm typing this on my iPhone so please forgive the typos.

Per the calorie formula Fitz should be consuming 172 calories/day. Her optimal lean wieght is 7.5lbs so times that by 13.6 +70 = 172. Is this right? It seems like not enough. I checked a couple cans like Core and they show a bit over 1,300 calories per can. I think I must be calculating wrong.

Some of the cans don't list their calorie content. Is there a way to calculate this by the analysis of nutrients given? When I can get to the computer I'll check Janet & Binkys page? Or maybe Dr. Lisa's.

The problem also consists of Fitz not interested in food. I baked her some chicken breasts tonight as this is a real fab treat but she only picked at the offerings. I hate to think it but if her appetite isn't better tomorrow I'll have to take her for a vet visit. This is something I've dreaded as my vet strongly disagrees with home testing and the last time we spoke he very firmly told me that if I changed her insulin dose from what he prescribed without him telling me to I was as good as killing my kitty. I'm not even sure hell see us once he finds out what I've been doing. The thought of trying to find another vet on an emergency basis who supports home testing isn't something I look forward to but will do what I needs to. The vet who saw Amma was open to home testing but she's on vacation and won't be back until after labor day.

I havent checked for ketones. I didn't think it an issue at her numbers. Where can I pick up test strips for this? I hope it's not something I have to get at the vet.

I can definitely lower her no shoot number to 140. Re: shooting during the day as long as its been 12 hours is doable though the shot on the other end of those 12 hours would be an issue because of me. This is where I get so angry at my situation. I've been sick for most of my life but the only one in pain because of it was basically just me. No one else's life literally depended on what I could and couldn't do. Yes Judith can help but not every night and I'm pretty much out of the picture for middle of the night anything.

Sorry venting when I am really extremely grateful for everyone's help, ideas and suggestions. Would someone let me know if I'm messing up the calorie formula? 172 calories per day just doesn't seem right.

Thank you Libby and Lucy, Sienne, Rhiannon, Chis, Leslie, Jill and Jane!!!!!!!!
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

keto stix are available at any pharmacy sitting next to meters and strips and other diabetic supplies.
Walgreens, CVS. etc..

You could try a post like

need a vet in __________, any recommendations.

Your profile just says southern california so fill in the blank.
Maybe someone out there will pipe in.
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

shai said:
Per the calorie formula Fitz should be consuming 172 calories/day. Her optimal lean wieght is 7.5lbs so times that by 13.6 +70 = 172. Is this right? It seems like not enough. I checked a couple cans like Core and they show a bit over 1,300 calories per can. I think I must be calculating wrong.
Click to expand...
sounds right to me.

shai said:
Some of the cans don't list their calorie content. Is there a way to calculate this by the analysis of nutrients given? When I can get to the computer I'll check Janet & Binkys page? Or maybe Dr. Lisa's.
Click to expand...
i'm sure ann/tess or marjorie/gracie have the formula at their finger tips. you might want to send either one of them a PM and ask.

here's a link to one of the newer food lists: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmkyagqUb3nudG9sRVhTVnFEWlhaU19ZUXkxTnlhYXc#gid=0. according to that list, the wellness core chicken, turkey, and chicken liver have 218 calories in a 5.5 ounce can. the "New to the Group?" sticky towards the top of the forum has links to some of the other food lists.

shai said:
The problem also consists of Fitz not interested in food. I baked her some chicken breasts tonight as this is a real fab treat but she only picked at the offerings. I hate to think it but if her appetite isn't better tomorrow I'll have to take her for a vet visit.
Click to expand...
here's some ideas for getting kitty to eat from cheryl/winnie:

Remember -- getting to the bottom of why he is not eating is most important. That way you can treat the underlying cause ( or symptoms of underlying cause) . It is always very important to get cats to eat, as they can quickly develop hepatic lipidosis from lack of food.

Here are some things you can do do entice your cat to eat:

-sometimes in order to get a cat to eat you even have to resort to dry it is more important that they eat. there are a couple low carb / grain free brands -- EVO and wellness core.

-making a buffet to give him choices
- heating food

sprinkle food with :
- forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
- parm. cheese
- smashed crumbles of dry food
- bonito tuna flakes
- halo chicken treats -- crumble into dust over food -- my Wolfie loves this stuff.
- poor a little water from tuna in water over food ( I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats-- check labels)
-powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:
- trader joe tuna for cats
-baby food -- beechnut turkey and broth or chicken and broth. they have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
- kentucky fried chicken
- deli turkey /chicken
- plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
-canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
- chicken broth -- low sodium

shai said:
I havent checked for ketones. I didn't think it an issue at her numbers. Where can I pick up test strips for this? I hope it's not something I have to get at the vet.
Click to expand...
BG numbers and ketones have no connection. a cat can throw ketones at a BG number of 120 or 520. the only reason BG numbers seem to have a connection is that a BG number of 520 sends up a red flag that not enough insulin is getting into the cat while a BG of 120 doesn't arouse concern. a diabetic cat can be in full blown DKA with a BG of 120 from not eating, vomiting, and being septic. most won't, but it can happen.

in other words, just because fitzel's numbers aren't extremely high, don't become complacent about testing for ketones.

an inadequate supply of insulin + inappetence + infection/other systemic stresses is the recipe for developing ketones... which can quickly escalate into DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis). you can pick up ketostix at any pharmacy. if you don't see them near the other diabetic supplies ask because sometimes they keep them behind the pharmacy counter.




hope this helps...
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

Jill and Rhiannon. Your posts are extremely helpful. I'll pick up ketone test strips tomorrow.

Jill thank you for such a specific breakdown on food, entisements and the hard facts that DKA and low numbers are not mutually exclusive.

There's no doubt that something here needs to be worked out to shoot when called for and test the same. I dont know how that's going to look yet or how it will be I just know that's what needs be done.
:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
:YMHUG:
Shai
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

The easiest method for managing your vet, unless you find a new one, is to not tell the vet what you're doing. The vet isn't at home with you. There are also papers from vet organizations and accrediting agencies that support home testing. I would not avoid a vet visit because your vet likes to think that the guy in the white coat knows everything. It's your cat and the vet works for you.
 
Re: 8/27 Fitzel - AMBG (+1)-113/+8-212 NOTICEABLY LOSING WEI

shai said:
I can definitely lower her no shoot number to 140. Re: shooting during the day as long as its been 12 hours is doable though the shot on the other end of those 12 hours would be an issue because of me.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't worry too much about that at this point. Most likely Fitzel wouldn't need another shot after 12 hours anyway, since it looks like she is currently going much longer than that between shots. If she does, then you can cross that bridge when you come to it. It's just an idea, anyway, and if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work.
 
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