8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +5=52, +8=58, +9=71

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Onyx & Klepto

Onyx & Klepto

Member Since 2013
Good Morning.

It was a LONG night of testing every hour. But Onyx held her own beautifully in the 60's for most of it. Only had to use carbs once to bring her up, which was when she went to 54. I was afraid I'd fall asleep and miss her dropping low. I'm assuming she was going into the 40's since the Catlax kept her even. But she did great.

Should I do another 1.5, or should I decrease again to say a fat 1.25?

EDIT: Does anyone have any idea how mucy traction 1ml of medium and high carb gravy will give me? That's the size of the syringes.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110 DECREASE AGAIN???

If I remember correctly, doses are based on nadirs, not usually with the PS #s. As per the protocol, in order to earn a decrease you need to make sure that the kitty hits #s in the 40s 3x within a cycle, or have a # in the 30's only once. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I have about doses will come by to help you. That 110 is a very good #, though! :-D
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110 DECREASE AGAIN???

Thanks, Angela.

It's not really the 110 I was cconcerned about, it was how low she went over night. She was going into the 40's again, but I stopped her with carbs. I can go ahead and do another 1.5, I'm just worried her poor ears are gonna fall off from all the testing the last 2 days.

:smile:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110 DECREASE AGAIN???

Brandi, Lantus does best on consistent dosing. At this point, I'd do away with the fat and skinny doses and stick to .25 decreases, unless you are trying to fine tune things. Having said that, Onyx didn't technically earn a decrease last night. The depot from the previous dose can also influence a few cycles after a decrease. How tired are you are from last night, and can you monitor today or do you need to sleep? That would determine a 1.5 or a 1.25 dose.

On the other side of the equation is the fact that you'd have to resort to syringe feeding or more Catlax to bring up her numbers. With the YA, I seem to remember someone suggesting that until we know more about it and how best to bring cats up from low numbers, it might be best to be a bit conservative. In that case, I'd go to 1.25 units. As the saying goes, you hold the syringe. What do you want to do today?
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110 DECREASE AGAIN???

Nah, her ears won't fall off. :lol: They'll harden over time, and eventually she may not feel anything. You may want to try gently going in at an angle, but only the tip and a small bit of the bevel part to draw a small drop of blood. That may help with easing some of the pain, and if you don't have any handy, Neosporin with Pain Relief works wonders, too, after you've tested. You're doing a great job.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110 DECREASE AGAIN???

Thanks, ladies.

Wendy, since you're probably right about the depot, I decided to go ahead with another 1.5. I'll be home all day to monitor, and yes, I am exhausted. I have plenty of carbs to bring her up if it's needed. I'll see how she does today, and if it's a true repeat, or lower than lastnight, I'll reduce to 1.25 tonight.

Thanks for your help.

:smile:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57

Oh crap. Looks like I probably should have done the 1.25.

Several hours before nadir, and she's already 57. UGH!

~O) Sleep...I miss you.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57

It may not have made much of a difference had you given the smaller dose. There's a residual effect with many cats when you reduce the dose, where the depot still has some influence. So in effect, you could still see "1.5u" on the first couple of cycles after reducing to 1.25u.

See if she keeps falling by +4? If so, you know the "routine" to slow or stop the drop, right?
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57 GRAVY QUESTION

Will do, Carl! I have a feeling tonight will be 1.25 for sure. But who knows. She could surf safely in the 50-60 range again all day. Which would be awesome!

I will try to keep that in mind about the depot. I think I keep thinking her depot was drained because we skipped the 1.75 shot 2 nights ago. I guess I'm still not 100% sure how missing a dose truly affects things.

And I'm ready for lows. Can you tell me if 1ml of high or medium carb gravy will have much of an affect to bring up numbers? These syringes are so small.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57 GRAVY QUESTION

And I'm ready for lows. Can you tell me if 1ml of high or medium carb gravy will have much of an affect to bring up numbers? These syringes are so small.
Click to expand...
Fill one with water and squirt it into a teaspoon, and see how many syringes it takes to fill it. The usual routine is a couple tsps of gravy and test again in 30 minutes. So you will probably have to give multiple syringes full.

Nevermind, here's the conversion:
1/5 teaspoon = 1 ml
1 teaspoon = 5 ml
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

lol...I know how much it is, what I'm asking is, how much can I expect it to boost her numbers up? I"m not sure if I should be using medium or high carb gravy. I don't want to boost her TOO much.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

That's pretty cool. Thanks, Carl.

I have a finger sized dropper, but she hated getting the milk from it. But maybe this won't be so bad becuase you can control the speed the liquid comes out.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

The only way to know that is by doing it. Every cat responds differently. In most cases, one or two rounds of HC gravy, 2 tsps at a time will get the numbers up from under 50 to maybe 70 or 80. It also depends on "when" in the cycle the low number happens. Numbers that happen early in the cycle are usually more "work" to bring up because the insulin is still working best compared to later in the cycle.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

I don't want to boost her TOO much.
Click to expand...

When you see a 40, don't worry about boosting it too much. You don't want it lower than that. And the 40 means that the reduction in dose has been "earned" already, so you don't need to be concerned about pushing it up to 100 if that happens. Onyx has "made his point" already. She needs less insulin going forward.

The carb-boost from gravy doesn't last forever. It wears off before the cycle is over. If you see higher numbers at PMPS, they won't be due to over-carbing her in the first half of a cycle. They'll be because of a bounce, and there isn't a whole lot you can do to avoid bounces from 40s.


edited to fix "gender". Sorry, I called her a him!
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

Okay, that helps. And of course, her nadir varies drastically. Or at least it DID. She's looking pretty consistent to how she was overnight on the same dose, and if that's the case, THIS hour is her nadir. Oh I hope so!

Come on Onyx...climb, baby climb!
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

Two tsps gravy, test in 30..... "lather, rinse, repeat" until you see a number around 70 or so.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

Carl & Bob said:
When you see a 40, don't worry about boosting it too much. You don't want it lower than that. And the 40 means that the reduction in dose has been "earned" already, so you don't need to be concerned about pushing it up to 100 if that happens. Onyx has "made his point" already. She needs less insulin going forward.

The carb-boost from gravy doesn't last forever. It wears off before the cycle is over. If you see higher numbers at PMPS, they won't be due to over-carbing her in the first half of a cycle. They'll be because of a bounce, and there isn't a whole lot you can do to avoid bounces from 40s.


edited to fix "gender". Sorry, I called her a him!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Okay, that's what I was thinking to. I gave her the catlax or now, since she LOVES it and it gives a gentle boost. If I have trouble holding her above 50, I've got the syringes with gravy on stand-by!

And no worries on calling her a "him". Some days she acts like a boy...lol.

Also good to know the gravy doesn't last long. I was worried about that.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40 GRAVY QUESTION

Also good to know the gravy doesn't last long. I was worried about that.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why gravy is the best way to go if possible. It does the job pretty quick, and it doesn't stick around long. The other side of that is because it doesn't last long, you will sometimes see the number climb up until you get to where you want to be, and then it might come back down an hour later, so you have to test beyond that point to make sure it stays up.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40

Okay, she's back up to 69. The catlax usually only lasts 30-60 minutes, so I'll test in 30.

Medium carb gravy is ready...
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69

69 is good!
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69

Hi guys .. wow, look at these numbers! Surf those 60's onyx! Have a great night guys!
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69

Carl & Bob said:
69 is good!
Click to expand...

It sure is!!! :smile:

Sadly, it didn't last long though. So I'm experimenting right now. She didn't handle the gravy syringe with the sweetness I was hoping for, so I don't have the heart to give her 4 more immediately. So I'm gonna see what 1 ML of med carb gravy does. If I gotta give her more, I will. But she looked at me like she wanted to chew my eyes out when I squirted it down her gullet! *GULP*

:YMSIGH:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69

PeterDevonMocha said:
Hi guys .. wow, look at these numbers! Surf those 60's onyx! Have a great night guys!
Click to expand...


Thanks, Peter!! Hopefully she doesn't fall of the surf board anytime soon...lol.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

Can I ask a dumb question? ... (it's dumb because I don't know the history here.) :-D

Why just the gravy if you want to get the kitty's BG levels up? I understand you don't want to fill up the kitty in case you need to give more food to raise the BG again.
But if the gravy wears off soon and the BG goes down then what was the point? Why isn't it recommended to give a little food with that little bit of gravy so the BG rises and stays steady?

I'm sure I'm missing something. Every kitty has different needs of course. But I used to give a little HC gravy food and get my kitty's BG to go up. Then if he needed more I gave more, keeping in mind I didn't want to fill him up. But giving just the gravy seemed like eating just the icing off a cupcake. Sure the BG will go up, but it would come back down pretty soon too. With a bit of food, things stay steadier.

Does Onyx not eat when her BG is low? I understand that happens in some cases.
Again, I apologize for not knowing the history here so just ignore me if I'm all wet. :lol:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

CD and BigMac said:
Can I ask a dumb question? ... (it's dumb because I don't know the history here.) :-D

Why just the gravy if you want to get the kitty's BG levels up? I understand you don't want to fill up the kitty in case you need to give more food to raise the BG again.
But if the gravy wears off soon and the BG goes down then what was the point? Why isn't it recommended to give a little food with that little bit of gravy so the BG rises and stays steady?

I'm sure I'm missing something. Every kitty has different needs of course. But I used to give a little HC gravy food and get my kitty's BG to go up. Then if he needed more I gave more, keeping in mind I didn't want to fill him up. But giving just the gravy seemed like eating just the icing off a cupcake. Sure the BG will go up, but it would come back down pretty soon too. With a bit of food, things stay steadier.

Does Onyx not eat when her BG is low? I understand that happens in some cases.
Again, I apologize for not knowing the history here so just ignore me if I'm all wet. :lol:
Click to expand...

No worries at all. Onyx, unfortunately, is one of those snotty kitties who WILL NOT EAT WET FOOD, no matter the brand--or flavor. She won't eat treats. She won't eat tuna. She won't drink milk. So given that, 10 days ago I put her on Young Again Zero Carb dry food. Which thankfully is helping her a lot. If I give her gravy, it's in a syringe. Which really sucks. But becuase her numbers are staying so even, I didn't want to give her too much, and make it shoot up, regardless of how long it lasts. I was just trying to get an idea of what to expect when I give it to her. Since she doesn't eat carbs now, she also doesn't need as many carbs to gently boost her up. I'm basically experimenting with things, since this is such new territory for the group. It's really difficult when you have a cat who won't eat ANYTHING.

Does that make a little more sense now?
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

Brandi--with regard to decreases--it is your call, but keep in mind Onyx is a newly diagnosed cat ("newly diagnosed" = 6 months or less).

Per the Protocol:

Reducing the dose:

If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further.

If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose.

You hold the syringe...
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

No worries at all. Onyx, unfortunately, is one of those snotty kitties who WILL NOT EAT WET FOOD, no matter the brand--or flavor. She won't eat treats. She won't eat tuna. She won't drink milk. So given that, 10 days ago I put her on Young Again Zero Carb dry food. Which thankfully is helping her a lot. If I give her gravy, it's in a syringe. Which really sucks. But becuase her numbers are staying so even, I didn't want to give her too much, and make it shoot up, regardless of how long it lasts. I was just trying to get an idea of what to expect when I give it to her. Since she doesn't eat carbs now, she also doesn't need as many carbs to gently boost her up. I'm basically experimenting with things, since this is such new territory for the group. It's really difficult when you have a cat who won't eat ANYTHING.

Does that make a little more sense now?
Click to expand...

Absolutely makes sense!
Thanks for letting me know, I knew I was missing an important piece of the puzzle.

There have been a few kitties here on the board in the past that just wouldn't eat wet food. It's like they don't recognize it as food at all. ohmygod_smile
Best of luck! I know it can be a hard thing to deal with. :shock:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

Onyx & Klepto said:
...Since she doesn't eat carbs now, she also doesn't need as many carbs to gently boost her up. I'm basically experimenting with things, since this is such new territory for the group...
Click to expand...
If you are referring to the YA Zero Carb when you wrote that she "doesn't eat carbs now" that is actually a little inaccurate because the YAZC actually does have a small percentage of carbs: about 5%. I had thought it had no carbs when I started feeding it to my brats, but was corrected. It still is the lowest dry food out there (that I know of). With that in mind, when you think about it, she is still going low (and showing some purrty purrific numbers) with carbs in her diet :-D I like that you are "experimenting.....new territory for the group"; very interesting. You may want to share that in Think Tank down the road.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

It's REALLY hard. Now my civie on the hand, Klepto, will eat anything you put in front of him. Bugs included! So I have wet food out every day. At least I've gotten 1 cat transitioned to wet, right?..lol. I'm hoping that once she's feeling 100% again, she'll be more willing to try something new. "When" I get her OTJ, I'll probably do the "starving" trick to see if she'll eat it. That's about the only thing I haven't tried.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

Onyx & Klepto said:
It's REALLY hard. Now my civie on the hand, Klepto, will eat anything you put in front of him. Bugs included! So I have wet food out every day. At least I've gotten 1 cat transitioned to wet, right?..lol. I'm hoping that once she's feeling 100% again, she'll be more willing to try something new. "When" I get her OTJ, I'll probably do the "starving" trick to see if she'll eat it. That's about the only thing I haven't tried.
Click to expand...
Hahaha! About that "starving" thing.... I tried that with my 2 kitties. Trying to get them to eat Weruva food. It was supposed to be good tasting and good for them so I ordered a case. They wouldn't touch it. But I'm stubborn (Ha!) and wouldn't put out anything else. After 36 hours, I gave up. I mixed it with the food they like (Fancy Feast) but they'd eat around it. Good grief! The definition of stubborn = CATS. :mrgreen:

I hope you have better luck or are more patient than I was. I was only trying to change flavors wet to wet. But, nope, no go. :lol:
My cats sure taught me a lesson. :roll:

At least the outside feral kitties liked it.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52

[/quote]If you are referring to the YA Zero Carb when you wrote that she "doesn't eat carbs now" that is actually a little inaccurate because the YAZC actually does have a small percentage of carbs: about 5%.[/quote]

Hey Kat. I'm waiting for confirmation from the company, but according to the website and bag, the Zero Carb food is truly zero carb. Their original cat food is the one they tout as being less than 5%, but all documentation says the one Onyx is on, is zero carb. From what I have seen on her SS, this food does nothing to boost her BG, which for me, confirms the zero carb belief. I know it's hard for folks to believe it's zero, but from using it everyday and closely monitoring her numbers, I totally believe the company. Data don't lie...lol.

But I will definitely share the data I collect. It's interesting to see how things affect her now. VERY interesting. Every day is a new experience.

:smile:
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +4.5=69, +5=52, +6=5

things like liver do have some carbohydrate in them, so the YA 0 carb is actually 5% calories from carbohydrate (not weight)
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +5=52, +6=54, +7=51

OK Onyx, time to head up again please! Enough with surfing in the 50's. She's definitely earned her reduction this time. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Paws crossed you get a shootable number at the PM. On the other hand, if not, you get sleep. :-D Great job managing her today Brandi - amazing considering how little sleep you are running on.

The Young Again folks have not paid to have a lab provide the "as-fed" or "dry matter" basis analysis of their "zero carb" food, which is what we need to provide the carb % included on Dr. Lisa's list. Until then, I think we are assuming low carb. It's not really important what the actual number is, as long as it's below 10%. The website, and probably the bag, just list the guaranteed analysis numbers, which can be ranges.

Is Catlax the only treat Onyx will eat? Just wonder if you could spike something with karo or honey - even a drop on her YA might help. Anything she'll eat willingly would be better than forcing her, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
 
Re: 8/20 Onyx - AMPS 110, +3=57, +4=40, +5=52, +6=54, +7=51

Hey Wendy.

Yes, Onyx's surfin' has officially WORN ME OUT!!!! But I suppose it's a good worn out, considering the alternative. Her body just wanted to completely side-step the blues--and head straight for the greens. Woo hoo!!! Each hour she stays in the 50's, I can't help but be excited for the healing she's doing.

Thanks for explaining the zero carb thing to me. Makes more sense.

And yes, Catlax is the ONLY treat she'll eat. I can definitely try to put syrup on her food sometime. She likes the way sweet things smell--but not wet cat food. Fortunately, so far, what I've been doing is working. The syringe with gravy didn't go over well, but it helped keep her in the 50's that hour.

I'll definitely welcome the decrease tonight. Mama needs some shut eye.

Thanks, Wendy.

:smile:
 
Wow Brandi!! Onyx is on a mission isn't she??

Looking great!!
 

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