8/2 Julia - Vet Update

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We’ll be heading to the vet tonight. Yesterday Julia went in her box and the pee smell was noticeably stronger and quite intense. She had gone into the kitchen last night and meowed uncharacteristically loudly for her when not demanding food. I thought she might have to go potty and that’s when I took her and noticed the smell. Then last night she went on the couch right in front of us. Then she was in the bathroom over night and went into the walk in shower and went to the bathroom there. For sure she pooped and probably peed, too, but there was blood in the shower where she went. The bench could have been wet and when she sat on it and hung her butt off, there was blood going off the bench but we could not tell if it was from #1 or #2 or exactly how much it was. There was also a drop (or more) of blood in the bathtub. I didn’t see it but Mom said it was definitely red and more than a drop for sure. I’m thinking she has an infection and hoping that’s all it is. I can’t afford the vet right now that’s for sure, so, if you could keep us in your thoughts it would be most appreciated. I’ll update when we get home tonight (6:30 appt.). Also, fingers crossed for no projectile vomiting in the backseat this time would be great!

Her BG was around 200 @ +11.5, AMPS at 160 and +2 around 140 (#'s written down at home with Mom and I'm at work) so I think her depot is emptying out a bit. We’ll hang with this dose though to see what happens and if she has medical issues/infection going on that could affect her numbers.

Do UTI’s cause enough pain that I need to ask for buperenex? I know she’s had the medicine before.
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

It does sound like a UTI. While it's more expensive, please make sure the vet get's the urine sample via a needle (cycstocentesis) and runs a culture and sensitivity. It's the best way to target the kind of bacteria that's causing the UTI so you don't waste time and more money on vet visits and antibiotics that aren't helping.

Most cats don't get pain meds for UTIs. If there are crystals or a blockage of some sort, then pain may be an issue. The vet (and you) can probably best assess if Julia is experiencing any pain.
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

It definitely sounds like UTI, and I would follow Sienne's advice about getting the urine sample done to find out about the kind of bacteria that's causing it. I wish for Julia to make a full and speedy recovery.
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

Thank you! We'll definitely do the cycstocentesis and culture and sensitivity. I know it's more but like you both mentioned, we want to target the right bacteria and avoid further trips to the vet. And Julia in the car is not a pleasant experience for anyone involved. She needs a bath each time we get to the vet before they can examine her. :lol:
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

Good luck at the vet tonight. I had to take a civie in to the vet for a FLUTD flare on the weekend. Line the carrier with lots of pee pads and take spare for the ride home. It helps a bit to keep things drier. Actually the vet offered me some for the ride home. I guess they are used to it. :lol:

Get better soon Juila.
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

We're leaving in a few minutes equipped with pee pads, newspaper, plastic bags to cover the car (last time she projectile vomited she was so scared) and a ponchos (kidding on the ponchos). :lol:

I still have to put her numbers into the spreadsheet but her AMPS today was 163 and nadir was only 140. She's 325 now (pre-vet and +10.5) with 0.75 as our dose. What do you think about going back up to 1.00 tonight? If she has an infection her #'s might be high and I know ketones are an issue with not enough insulin on board and infection. Luckily she's eating fine. I will be home to monitor all weekend but I'd rather see her lower.

Also, on antibiotics she tends to get "runny" and the vet recommends plain yogurt. How does that work in regard to diabetes? Or is there something else I can give her?
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

Just sending along good vetty vines...I hope all has gone well with sweet little Julia!
 
Re: 8/2 Julia - Vet Tonight

I just want to add my good vetty vines and calm car ride vines to the pile for you and Julia. I hope there's no need for ponchos.

Julia, all us kittehs will come by when you get home to make sure you're feeling tip top! xoxo ollie
 
Update is reallllllly long but it was interesting to say the least...

We saw the vet. :? I went in prepared with her spreadsheet to show them how she was doing (which was good, I thought) and it didn't quite go as expected. I'll start off by saying it's a large vet practice with over 10 doctors so depending on the need and urgency you don't always see the same doctor but rather who is there at the time. Regardless, I still like the practice, it's 10 minutes away and has a 24-hr ER and hospital that always has a vet there which is great. It's not always an ER, just a huge, busy, regular practice that has that as an added feature so they're never closed.

The car ride there consisted of projectile vomiting and peeing in the carrier. However, we and the car were prepared. I lined the backseat with garbage bags so the mess was easy to clean up. However, because she was so filthy from her mess they took the her still in the carrier to the back for a bath. This happens every time we go. Except the tech brought her back and said the doctor examined her back there and was looking at the urine sample now (found out it was urinalysis only). Huh? The vet came in and let us know she does have a lot of blood and sugar in her urine and she was going to get her on an antibiotic. I asked about sterile sample, culture and sensitivity and she said because of the amount of blood and sugar she saw and that being a bad combination because diabetics have trouble fighting infections she was automatically going on an antibiotic. She wanted to give her that shot that lasts two weeks but I know better so I at least got her to give her pills (Julia will eat them with pill pockets as she's done before) and so, she's on Clavamox for 2 weeks. She already had her first dose while refilling her belly after the vet. She was starving which I was happy to see. And ketones were negative yesterday for me and today for the vet.

Interestingly enough, after her bath Julia was brought back in the room in her carrier meowing like she was being skinned alive. As soon as Mom opened that door on the carrier and started petting her she quieted down. Then she came out and laid on the table looking around and quite calm. Could Mom's calming her have anything to do with the difference in the BG I talk about in the next paragraph?

As for her BG...when the vet tested her she was well over 400 (during her exam in the back away from us)! I forgot the exact number but I can get it if I have to. Huh? I know about vet stress so that can account for some of it of course. She probably tested her right after her car ride, puking, bath, and exam which is stressful. However, we then tested her right in the room in Mom's arms and she was 257 which is close to a 200 point difference. The vet said based on the number she had and the amount of sugar in her urine, she thinks our meter is reporting lower than what she actually is and she's not as controlled as we think she is. Also, I don't think she's controlled yet (those were the vet's words). I think we're simply a work-in-progress hopefully doing things early and aggressively enough that we have a chance at going OTJ. For the record, the vet said they use a human meter with animal test strips calibrated to 700 for cats that will work on that meter. What the heck? I have never heard of such a thing.The vet proceeded to tell me what a Lantus curve should look like and because Julia bounces I know her 12 hour cycles don't quite follow the norm as she seems to clear a bounce every night/morning. I told her about Julia's lower #'s on 1.25 and 1.00 units and she asked about symptoms when she was that low. For the 38 I could feel her shaking a bit (not a seizure or anything) which seemed to puzzle her because that would mean she really was as low as I said she was.

I decided to go back up to 1.00 unit tonight (from 0.75) because of the infection. Also, I think her depot was a bit emptier from the 1.25 dose being gone in that she never hit green today when she's more recently been a frequent visitor in the morning cycle. I am home all weekend and would rather try to keep her on the lower side until this infection clears (and all of the time of course) - proactive rather than reactive. Of course we'll adjust as need be. Does this sound like a bad idea to anyone?

The vet's plan is for me to shoot 1 unit twice daily for the next 4-6 weeks and then we'll do a fructosamine (sp?) to see where things stand. As far as the fructosamine, this sounds reasonable to me in that it will give an overall view and not just the spot checks. However, in my head I know that steady and holding at 1 unit is not how Lantus works best (from what my newbie brain knows). It's amazing that as much as I know from this site and people here, the darn vet can put so much doubt in my head as to what I'm doing for my cat. She talked about us micromanaging her like a human would do for themselves but cat's are different. Duh! I do think we micromanage our cats as we adjust dose, feed certain kinds of food at certain times, and test. But somehow the vet made me feel like it's a bad or negative thing. I would like to think I'm doing the best I can for Julia. I try to shoot as low as possible even when she's dropping and then controlling with food because I know the consistent 12 hours is best and she's always dropping before her morning dose. Stalling would just make life more chaotic and unpredictable as we're dropping more times than not in the morning. Keeping those numbers low is better for her. I do wonder if she was "somewhat" (term loosely used of course) controlled how much sugar shows in the urine? She said there was a lot which is part of why I doubted if she was as really low as I think. Or could that much sugar show up because she still goes into the 300's even with the bounce, which, just happened to be happening at the time of the vet visit (an hour before normal shot time)?

I don't know what to do about the C & S (that we didn't get but not for lack of trying) now that we've seen the vet. Should we give the meds a chance to work and watch her? She peed with blood in at least 4 places we could see today (shower, 2 different bathtubs, and on a plastic bag) so should we just keep our eyes open? Her behavior otherwise is perfectly fine, appetite was great today.

We're still sticking with our Relion Micro and dosing on here but boy-oh-boy did she mess with my head today. I am going to get a new Micro tomorrow just for peace-of-mind since it's so cheap to see if she tests any differently on a 4-yr old meter vs new. Should I be using the control solution every time I get new strips? If so, I need new control solution. Even Dad suggested since they're so cheap, go ahead and get a new one. We do have a Confirm as a backup. And I got some needless syringes (for hypo kit) from the vet so that was a win. *Winning!* :lol:

Last question...When on antibiotics last year Julia had plain yogurt to help with the upset belly and runny poops. Is that okay to use with the diabetes (she loved it) or is there something better we should be doing?

If you made it this far I thank you very much for reading and any advice and kind words shared. I know I don't get to as many condos as I would like (where does time go?) but I still receive support and advice and for that I am grateful. As a reward, these videos on YouTube is hilarious and a must-see for anyone, especially animal lovers. Disco the Parakeet and Disco talks to Daddy
 
I did read the whole post and I'm glad things went as well as they did at the vet. You did great, Elizabeth! It's hard to stand your ground when you are up against a professional, and one who doesn't really listen to want you want. I wonder if the vet has actually ever treated a diabetic cat, talking about "micromanaging", or if she just advises people about it. Oh well. Quite frankly, I wouldn't pay for a fructosamine test. Just look at the 30 day average on the meter. That's free. :lol: :lol:

Sending tons of healing vines to Julia and for the ABs to do their thing.
Liz
 
I also read the post. There are two vets in Neko's office and if Neko's regular vet is away I have to talk to the second one. He always asks about a fructosamine and I always decline. The regular vet knows better than to ask, and she's seen how much I test. The regular vet also uses a human meter (Onetouch) with human strips for doing her own testing in the office. I figure if a vet uses a human meter, it's good enough for me.

People here have used plain greek yoghurt with active cultures to help with the runny poops if that's what you get from the AB. I've also seen people use Fortiflora or a probiotic.

The civie that I took to the vet on Sunday tested at 207 at the vet and 53 the next day when the blood tests came back and the vet called about them. So, a 150 point difference is entirely possible, and he didn't even do the projectile vomiting. :shock: Neko's been pretty consistent lately about bouncing during the day, so we always get high BG/sugar in urine too when we go to the vet.

You do plenty of testing, so long as you keep an eye on things, the new dose might be OK. Just be aware that when the ABs start to work (soon I hope) you might need a quick decrease.

Paws crossed Julia heals quickly.
 
I've been collecting some folks meter comparison data and running some simple analyses. If others have any, please send them to me or send me a link to them.

In numbers at or below 207 - The Alphatrak reads an average of 37% higher than the ReliOn Confirm with 65 pairs of tests.

In numbers at or above 274 - The Alphatrak reads an average of 20% higher than the ReliOn Confirm with 8 pairs of tests (not a lot of observations in these ranges).

It is akin to reading temperature in Celsius vs Fahrenheit. Freezing is 0 degrees celsius and 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Both are correct.
 
Just one comment about the probiotics. Do not give them at the same time. They will cancel each other out.
You want the antibiotic to do it's job so give the probiotic at least an hour later. :mrgreen: (Same thing for humans.)
 
My guess is that because Julia peed on the way over to the vet, her bladder was empty. You would have had to bring her back or they would have needed to keep her in order to do a cytocentesis. As for the sugar in her urine, if you can pick up a box of Ketodiastix, they will test for both ketones and urinary glucose. It's a way for you to have a better sense of where Julia's renal threshold is. (If you can get tests when her numbers are in the 175 to 250 range, the number where she stops showing glucose in her urine is her renal threshold.)

The hassle with not getting a C & S is that if Julia has sterile cystitis, which is another reason she could have blood in her urine (vs. a UTI), the antibiotics won't help.

I agree with Liz -- a fructosamine isn't needed. All the results tell you is a 2- 3 week average for BG levels. You have more accurate data on your SS. Vets aren't used to people testing the way we do. As a result, they use a curve done in the office and a fructosamine test to adjust dose. Given that's their typical practice, it's no wonder she views what we do as "micromanaging." Frankly, if this is good for people, why isn't it good for our cats?

I don't know that I would have raised Julia's dose so please keep an eye on her numbers. She's dropped into the 50s on the 0.75u dose. In addition, if there is an infection present, once the antibiotic kicks in, numbers could drop.
 
I read your whole post too.
I'm with you on the not staying at one dose for too long.... that just show me that the vet is still regarding the lantus too much like the older insulins that work that way.
I'm glad you are here getting better advice.

FWIW, my own cat got large spikes after throwing up and then it would rapidly go back to normal after an hour. Maybe the vomiting in the car caused Julia's spike. Just a tho't.
 
The study that was done on cats, to test their stress levels, was giving them a bath. I find it ironic that Julia got a bath at the vet's and her numbers were in the 400's. It's no wonder it was high after the puking and peeing car ride, and the stress of that bath.

Vets are used to a "generic, one size fits all" approach to treating diabetic cats. We try to tailor the approach to the individual cat and what we are seeing with the testing. Most vets are not used to committed caregivers like you and the group of people here on the FDMB.

Watch Julia's appy. Some cats won't eat much when they are on Clavamox. Broad spectrum antibiotic, may not target the specific bacteria Julia has and if she does not have a bacterial infection, she will just build up a resistance to the antibiotic.

Fructosamine test? Why? You have the 15 and 30 day averages on your meter. Pull those up and save Julia the stress of another puking car ride to the vet.

You said you already have a Confirm meter. The Relion Confirm and Micro use the exact same strips. You could test with the Confirm instead of going out to buy another meter.

Tell your vet, you don't micromanage, you are simply a concerned and committed caregiver to your beloved cat Julia and will do all you can to get her not only regulated but in remission. That is your goal, remission, so no way will you hold the dose for 4-6 weeks. :roll:
 
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