8/14 Toeby - +9 snacks

Laurasboyz

Member Since 2020
Last post August11: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...7-pmps-169-2-5-122-4-104.251257/#post-2834546

Well, the power of suggestion on here must be strong.
I woke up at just before 4 am and stared at the alarm clock; more than a wee bit annoyed to be awake.
Then I realized that it was the +9 hour for Toeby...
I hadn't put down a timed feeder.

So I got up and trundled out to the kitchen.
He did still have food in his bowl, but I heated some up with warm water and he ate a snack for me.
I laughed to myself, I guess @Sienne and Gabby (GA) and @Bron and Sheba (GA) would be glad to know that their advice doesn't go unheeded, not even to my unconscious mind.
Haha!
 
Until I started using the feeder, I was you at those +9 feedings. Trundling is a great verb! :p

Looks like the snack helped keep the PMPS down after the budesonide last night. Let's hope he stays in those nice blues.

See how the +9 snack experiment goes. If Toeby starts to dive again I was wondering if you could get .25 mgs of budesonide compounded so you could give it twice a day on the days when Toeby would get it to keep his BGs a little more even. Another experiment to try if you still have a hard time with .1 units. Keeping him in blue numbers is a good thing to do, as it keeps him below renal threshold and in a more safe zone out of the greens. This has been my goal with Ruby.
 
I heard from the vet today and they will be re-ordering the 0.5mg Budensonide from the pharmacy and would like me to keep giving it to him on an every other day schedule.
I learned today that it is primarily intended to treat suspected cancer, not just IBD, and stopping it or reducing it could trigger a rapid growth of the cancer.
I always knew intestinal cancer was a possibility for him, but I didn't know that budesonide helps keep cancer in check.

It's been suggested I could try giving him a small dose of insulin on the days he gets his steroid, or try going off it altogether and see what happens with his blood sugar, as he MIGHT be going into remission.
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with a dosing schedule other than daily?
Budesonide is a steroid that locally acts on the GI system. Which is an advantage over pred in that you don't have impacts on other parts of the system. The down side is it's action is not as even as with pred. But for kitties with certain conditions that should not have pred - such as Neko's heart condition, or some cats with diabetes, it's a good alternative for GI disease. Budesonide does help reduce inflammation. There is some thought out there than repeated inflammation can lead to cancer, though not I think any research studies to show it happens definitively. So if there is no other way to get rid of the inflammation (such as a novel protein diet for IBD), longer term budesonide may be in the picture. We could not get a definitive diagnosis on Neko whether IBD or SCL, again cause the diagnosis involved anaesthesia which her heart could not take, but her IM vet and the oncologist he consulted thought it was likely SCL. Also given where the inflammation was and a few other clues, I agree.

It's been 7 cycles on this dose so far, and no joy, ie. green. I think maybe the reduction has failed. Can you measure 0.3 units?
 
It's been 7 cycles on this dose so far, and no joy, ie. green. I think maybe the reduction has failed. Can you measure 0.3 units?

Hi, sorry for the delay... I was AWOL yesterday, I guess!
I hope you had a good vacation!

I actually did have a bit of joy today, a green reading at AM +4, which was nice.
I haven't been poking him as much as I do sometimes... I guess we're both taking a bit of a break, so maybe he's had other greens I didn't catch?

More specifically to your question:
I think it's a two-part question, can I measure 0.3 units, and more of a question for me - why 0.3 units?

a) I'm not honestly sure if I can measure a 0.3, other than my best guess, like I have been doing?

I purchased calipers to measure small doses with the BD Ultrafine syringes with half unit markings that I use.
I watched the videos, looked at Steve Rapaport's Fine Dosing Visual Guide, read the info from Germany with a chart that can be printed on A4 sized paper (except I haven't figured out how to convert and print that with the el cheapo printer I have), etc.

I just don't see how the metal arms, no matter how accurately they can be spaced, are useful to eyeball a dose of less than 1 millimeter inside the syringe when you must hold the metal caliper arms up against the syringe.
I have seen calipers in use and know they are extremely accurate when the metal arms of the calipers can actually touch the item being measured.
I just don't see how they're accurate in this application - I would be happy to document what I am doing with photos and post them for help if I need to - If I'm being a dumb ass, let me know!

b) His BGs dropped below 50 three times on 0.4 units (July 31, Aug 3, Aug 5) - so I reduced to 0.2 units on August 6th.
He then went below 50 twice on 0.2 units (on Aug 7 and 11).
By TR guidelines I should have waited for a third lime green reading on a cycle before reducing from 0.2 units, but his vet called me that afternoon, on August 11th.

I am wondering why you are asking if I can measure 0.3 units.
Wouldn't a return back to 0.2 units be my next step if this reduction has failed?

When his vet called me, she looked at his spreadsheet to date, including the lows of that morning.
She thought I should try dropping the insulin altogether on his skip day, and give 0.2 units on the day he got budesonide.
That's when I asked the question about skipping days here, I got the impression that it's not a great approach.
I elected to just go to 0.10 units on a regular schedule, rather than on/off for now.
I have to check back with her next week when she is back from vacation.

His vet would be happy to see him from 6-12 mmol/L, with or without insulin.
That's essentially blue numbers - which I know is NOT the goal of TR and not what I have been trying to do.
Her biggest concern is his safety, and she wants me to keep the budesonide to keep any possible intestinal cancer under some control, but not to keep pushing his BG levels so low with his insulin.
While she thought I was doing a good job with him, she is concerned that he is going to hypo on me.
SO! That's the story to date.
Looking forward to hearing back from you, @Wendy&Neko, please, with why 0.3 units is your suggested dose.
Thanks!
Laura (possible dumbass)

Edit to add: August 16 PMPS 137, +3 59
I was going to check him at +2 like I normally do, but he was happy looking out a window, so I waited until +3... nice to see another green. He seemed to feel good today - he was playful this morning, and was bound and determined to put a beating on his brother tonight before supper - I had to give him a time out in the basement to separate them. I will check him again in an hour as I am not sure if he is on the way up or down...
 
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