8/12 Ducia AMPS 221,+9 36/43,+10.75 41,+11 60; PMPS 39, +13.5 77, +14 61, +17 346

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Tanya and Ducia

Tanya and Ducia

Member Since 2017
Yesterday

Hello everyone,

Cycle N. 40 :):cool: on the 1F dose and the 2nd since last Green - naturally, Ducia bounces :rolleyes:.

As much as I hate and distaste bouncing I must acknowledge its positive - a bean could rest. Last night I slept some decent number of hours, maybe up to 5 hours uninterrupted and it made huge difference in how I feel this AM. :D:D:D. It's been a while since last time I slept that long. Hard to believe it's how some people sleep each night.

Wishing everyone very happy weekend!
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
I'm glad you got a nice long sleep. When I was posting regularly, I was told that humans sleep in 4 hour increments. I don't know how true that is.
I used to try to get 4 hours stretches whenever I could and they helped me. Yes, take advantage of sleep when you can get it ;)
Come on down, nice and easy, Ducia :cat:
 
Glad you got 5 hours, Tanya. You have my sympathy. I don't sleep a lot anymore either. Maybe you'll get two nights in a row of 5 hours. Hoping for you.

She hasn't had pinks a long time. That's great.

Hey, crashing your condo here, but really quick...you had said something about AB affecting their BG. By causing BG to go up?
 
Glennie said:
you had said something about AB affecting their BG. By causing BG to go up?
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That's what I was told - the antibiotics (some of them, and sometimes but not always) cause the BG to go up (nothing will take it down, eh?;) apart from insulin). I was told not to fuss about higher numbers until after the AB is out of the system. You had Convenia, right? It is long lasting AB. Whether or not it'll cause a raise - IDK. If that's your concern I'd increase the oral water intake, watch the clinicals and either keep the dose until the AB is out, or (best of all) post to consult on he dosecreases wit the Wise Ones.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
That's what I was told - the antibiotics (some of them, and sometimes but not always) cause the BG to go up (nothing will take it down, eh?;) apart from insulin). I was told not to fuss about higher numbers until after the AB is out of the system. You had Convenia, right? It is long lasting AB. Whether or not it'll cause a raise - IDK. If that's your concern I'd increase the oral water intake, watch the clinicals and either keep the dose until the AB is out, or (best of all) post to consult on he dosecreases wit the Wise Ones.
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Hmmm ... Gizmo saw his best numbers ever right after he started his last antibiotic. I thought maybe it was because it was treating some infection (that caused his numbers to be higher). Could just be a coincidence also ... his numbers are typically high and not very consistent yet. That's interesting to know that some AB cause higher numbers!
 
Chubba said:
Gizmo saw his best numbers ever right after he started his last antibiotic
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by the "best" do you lower? For how long has he retained that low level after the AB?

Were Gizmo's numbers just as good as after he finished his AB course?

Ducia was on Metranidazole after the Amoxi course for a few days. The Metro dose was minimal but was held for 10 days straight. Ducia's BGs were high. I was told not to expect normal numbers until after the AB is out of her system.
Chubba said:
That's interesting to know that some AB cause higher numbers
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Some members here do know for sure which AB cause the glucose levels to go up. I cannot remember at this time which ABs are bad or who are the members to ask for guidance. Hopefully someone read and post the correction, if needed.
 
I wonder if it's just because of the stomach upset from some antibiotics? Any kind of discomfort like that can cause BG to rise temporarily.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
by the "best" do you lower? For how long has he retained that low level after the AB?

Were Gizmo's numbers just as good as after he finished his AB course?

Ducia was on Metranidazole after the Amoxi course for a few days. The Metro dose was minimal but was held for 10 days straight. Ducia's BGs were high. I was told not to expect normal numbers until after the AB is out of her system.

Some members here do know for sure which AB cause the glucose levels to go up. I cannot remember at this time which ABs are bad or who are the members to ask for guidance. Hopefully someone read and post the correction, if needed.
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Yes, lower numbers. They actually started within a day or two of starting the antibiotic, doesn't seem like that would possible due to the antibiotic. Would think it would take a little longer, but who knows. He earned his first reduction after slightly more than a week on the antibiotic. It didn't hold though. Then his numbers started going back up about 4 days after he finished. He had a lot of bouncing going on during this time also, so he wasn't consistently in lower numbers while on antibiotics. I think there might be/probably are several other issues going on with Gizmo also. We haven't been able to get him tested yet for insulin resistance, acro, and hyperT. So several other variables that could be causing his numbers to fluctuate.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
That's what I was told - the antibiotics (some of them, and sometimes but not always) cause the BG to go up (nothing will take it down, eh?;) apart from insulin). I was told not to fuss about higher numbers until after the AB is out of the system. You had Convenia, right? It is long lasting AB. Whether or not it'll cause a raise - IDK. If that's your concern I'd increase the oral water intake, watch the clinicals and either keep the dose until the AB is out, or (best of all) post to consult on he dosecreases wit the Wise Ones.
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Yes, Callie was on Convenia. Good memory, Tanya. I was actually hoping it wouldn't cause an unexpected drop. She drops when other cats rise though so I never know. Thanks! Hope tonight is another sleep night for you.
 
Glennie said:
She drops when other cats rise though so I never know.
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I have noticed several times that many kitties go lower collectively, so to speak, at about the same time. Is that what you meant , Glennie?
And that Callie goes in the opposite direction? Wow! :D At least some sort of warning,eh?
Callie's SS looks so normal, I hope Convenia will not cause any raise in BG or cause other troubles. Wishing speedy recovery to all of your fury family!
 
Dyana said:
I was told that humans sleep in 4 hour increments. I don't know how true that is.
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Hi Dyana, I personally know several people who sleep either by 4 hours increments or only 4 hours per night and do not complain/feel tired at all. I only wish I can learn how to fall asleep in minutes so I can use the full 4 hours break for sleeping - it takes me awhile to go to sleep.
 
Nan & Amber said:
I wonder if it's just because of the stomach upset from some antibiotics? Any kind of discomfort like that can cause BG to rise temporarily.
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Perhaps.. It was a while since Ducia had AB and the only thing that stuck in my mind is that AB=no good numbers. I could be mistaken. The last time we took AB was after the eTube infection -I was in a "state" and could mix things up easily..
 
I have some stubborn Lime Green that just would not go away.
Fed MC at +9.75
Fed HC at +10.75
I wonder if she'll eat at pre-shot...
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
I have noticed several times that many kitties go lower collectively, so to speak, at about the same time. Is that what you meant , Glennie?
And that Callie goes in the opposite direction? Wow! :D At least some sort of warning,eh?
Callie's SS looks so normal, I hope Convenia will not cause any raise in BG or cause other troubles. Wishing speedy recovery to all of your fury family!
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I really need to be more clear when I write things. Sorry. No, I just meant that when most cats are stressed their BG tends to rise. (vet visits, traveling, etc.) It seems Callie's is just the opposite, going down rather than up when she is stressed. When we travel or are at someone's house visiting, her BG goes down, and I haven't noticed it going up at all at vet visits. Of course, now that I said that, I'm sure that will change.

It doesn't seem the Covenia caused any movement either way. I was just wondering so I could store the info away in my little brain so I could forget it later.

The kitties are all doing better except for one that still has the diarrhea. I can't figure how which one is still suffering with it, but I am dosing the probable kitties with probiotics and slippery elm bark. So I am running to the LB anytime anyone sounds like they're going potty. But I can't catch them. Thank you for your speedy recovery wishes.

So sorry for making this condo about me. I didn't mean to. :bighug:
 
Glennie said:
Wow, that came out of nowhere, didn't it?
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It sure has!
And now my PS gives me an attitude. Sigh. If it rains it pours, nothing new.
Glennie, good to hear the pack is doing well. I heard only good feedback re:SEB. I hope it'll work soon!:bighug:
Ducia had a bout of diarrhea just the other day, just once but it was an eye stinger/room clearer for sure:joyful:. I got away with just a little of FortiFlora, thank goodness, and full LB cleaning.
 
Hi everyone, whoever is not comfortably sleeping yet,

Ducia came to 39 @pre-shot for the PM cycle and I fed her right away - instinct, couldn't let her go around in the 30s without food.

My question is - do I shoot reduced 1U dose right away in hopes she 'll eat more, or do I stall?
Waiting for what?
Skipping isn't an option but I can stall for as long as needed.
 
Do not shoot a number in the 30's!!!!! Even the most experienced members never do that.

I'd skip, to be honest. Now that she's had the MC, you won't know if she's coming up herself, or if it's just the food-- you'd have to stall quite a while to be sure it was safe to shoot.
 
Why do you say skipping isn't an option?

I don't have dosing advise, only what I would do for my cat. I am not willing to hope he eats. If I gave a shot and there was a thought he may not eat/eat enough. I force fed him.

Wondering why would you give a shot in the 30's? That's really low.

Is there such a thing as higher number vines? We sending some for her numbers to bump out of lime green.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
less than 6 months since DKA?

Certainly - the HC food - at +12.5 she is 70. Looks as if wants to eat more.

Sorry, I am lost - what do I do?

THANKS A LOT FOR BEING UP SO SO LATE @YOUR TIME!!!
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I think you're a long enough way from the DKA that it's not the immediate danger in a situation like this. You can think of the skip like a furshot.

The 70 is good, but I'd still vote for a skip. Maybe if someone more experienced than me checks in they could advise how to assess the situation differently-- I'd think you'd want to give her some time without food influence to be sure, but I don't know the details. And you'd definitely have to be ready to monitor all night.

I can't actually stay up-- I'm only up in the middle of the night to get a glass of water, and checking in briefly.
 
Tanya

You can shoot up to two hours late but you need to be sure that the HC has worn off....we don't want to shoot a HC influenced number and then have her drop back down to the 30s.

She's been running low for several hours now which tells me she has a really full depot. If you do shoot late, you need to absolutely reduce her dose. I would even suggest you shoot a half dose and let the depot drain some more.

Another option is to shoot an 18 hour schedule so at +18, if she's up sufficiently, you could shoot her new reduced dose and then shoot again 18 hours after that to put you back on schedule.

However, If she has been eating well, has been ketone negative, and had no symptoms of DKA, I would skip tonight, if she were mine, and shoot tomorrow with her new dose of 0.75u (I'd probably take the fat off of it).
 
Marje and Gracie said:
You can shoot up to two hours late but you need to be sure that the HC has worn off....we don't want to shoot a HC influenced number and then have her drop back down to the 30s.
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That is my fear, too. The current 70Bg reading is FF gravy lovers 20%.
Marje and Gracie said:
She's been running low for several hours now which tells me she has a really full depot. If you do shoot late, you need to absolutely reduce her dose. I would even suggest you shoot a half dose and let the depot drain some more.
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Marje and Gracie said:
If she has been eating well, has been ketone negative, and had no symptoms of DKA, I would skip tonight, if she were mine, and shoot tomorrow with her new dose of 0.75u (I'd probably take the fat off of it).
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For all of my time on this Forum I dreamt of hearing just that, and now, when the time has come I am so uncomfortable with skipping. There were I thing two DKA related deaths reported in past week or so. I am worried.
Marje and Gracie said:
Another option is to shoot an 18 hour schedule so at +18, if she's up sufficiently, you could shoot her new reduced dose and then shoot again 18 hours after that to put you back on schedule.
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Not sure I am understanding it fully.. I can shoot tonight at +18, six hours after the regular time, no problem. But how shooting again late tomorrow at +18 gets me back to the schedule.:confused: Sorry, I feel stupid even asking that but I don;t get it.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
For all of my time on this Forum I dreamt of hearing just that, and now, when the time has come I am so uncomfortable with skipping. There were I thing two DKA related deaths reported in past week or so. I am worried
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We certainly never suggest a cat with recent DKA have a skipped shot, in general, and if a cat is showing ketones, not eating, etc, we are cautious about about skipping.

But shooting too low and having the numbers come right down on you from a full depot is also dangerous if she has been totally stable, ketone free, and she is eating.

Let's say you usually shoot at 7/7, to shoot on an 18 hour schedule, you would shoot at 1 a.m. and then the next shot would be tomorrow night at 7 p.m. and you're back on schedule.
 
The Bg at +13 is 85, 60 min after the HC food.
I think I will wait another hour without feeding, test and if she has gone up I'll shoot the new reduced dose 2 hours after the normal shoot time.
Does it sound like good plan to you?

Question: I thought I should reduce to 1 Unit. Marje suggested 0.75 and I like it. But again, given her DKA history - should I shoot 0.75U tonight, or should I make it 1U?
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
Question: I thought I should reduce to 1 Unit. Marje suggested 0.75 and I like it. But again, given her DKA history - should I shoot 0.75U tonight, or should I make it 1U?
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I would take the full reduction, as Marje suggested. Going from 107 to 36 in one hour warrants nothing less, IMHO.

Better an hour too high than a minute too low.

That should say -

Better a day too high than an hour too low...

 
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Tanya and Ducia said:
The Bg at +13 is 85, 60 min after the HC food.
I think I will wait another hour without feeding, test and if she has gone up I'll shoot the new reduced dose 2 hours after the normal shoot time.
Does it sound like good plan to you?

Question: I thought I should reduce to 1 Unit. Marje suggested 0.75 and I like it. But again, given her DKA history - should I shoot 0.75U tonight, or should I make it 1U?
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While it's "ok", I'd be sure that you absolutely know that HC only lasts two hours in her. ECID. Because of the depot, even if you reduce and shoot late, she might come back down when she onsets and you could be struggling with numbers a long time. You hold the syringe, but unless she shoots way up by +14, my suggestion would be to skip.

Ducia is a newly diagnosed cat and so the reduction is 0.25u. Especially when they drop below 40, we strongly urge you to reduce by 0.25u. That would take you to 0.75uF. Just to make it easier, you could just take the dose to 0.75u.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Ducia is a newly diagnosed cat and so the reduction is 0.25u.
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She was diagnosed late, most likely she lived with high BG for several months prior to the Dx. That's equate her to a long term diabetec. IDK myself, I was told so by someone whose experience I must respect. That been said, I take her reductions after she goes 3 times below 50 on separate occasions, or below 40 once, like today. I am glad to take the full quarter of a unit down for her.

Marje and Gracie said:
While it's "ok", I'd be sure that you absolutely know that HC only lasts two hours in her. ECID.
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I never had the need to employ HC, the MC up to 15% usually did... I assume two hours off the food will reveal the "true" BG number. No experience here with my own cat...

Update for the +13.5: BG 77 - 90 min since HC meal. Will retest in 30 min.
Somewhat lower than the +13 =BG 85.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
She was diagnosed late, most likely she lived with high BG for several months prior to the Dx. That's equate her to a long term diabetec. IDK myself, I was told so by someone whose experience I must respect. That been said, I take her reductions after she goes 3 times below 50 on separate occasions, or below 40 once, like today. I am glad to take the full quarter of a unit down for her.


I never had the need to employ HC, the MC up to 15% usually did... I assume two hours off the food will reveal the "true" BG number. No experience here with my own cat...

Update for the +13.5: BG 77 - 90 min since HC meal. Will retest in 30 min.
Somewhat lower than the +13 =BG 85.
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We base dx on when the vet diagnosed her via labs. Many members look back and think their cats were diabetic months before they were actually diagnosed via labs. Any cat diagnosed under a year is newly diagnosed and not a long-term diabetic.

I don't normally just recite info from stickys, but in this case, from the TR Sticky:
If your cat drops into the 30s, a full reduction of 0.25u is recommended. There are very few exceptions given for caregivers who have collected years of data and KNOW their cat's response to the combination of insulin and food backwards, forwards, and inside out.
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Especially if you are using three times between 40-50 for a reduction, you would absolutely not shave the dose because you are already using a more aggressive method of reductions.

I don't know if you've ever seen it, but you might want to read my post on Reductions while you wait for the next test.

I've seen numbers come back down after more than two hours after HC so I would just urge you to be cautious.
 
The +14 is 61, 2 hours since HC meal.

I suppose it is her "true", not food influenced number after 2 hours, and I think we are shooting 0.75U now - unless you tell me to stall some more. Do you?

I am a bit worried about the downward movement, and Ducia had history of going lower when hungry. But she will eat that junki-ish FF 15% or 20% now, and I think I should go ahead.

A note is made as to the 18h-18 hours schedule for the future references. Thank you, @Marje and Gracie.

So, should I shoot?
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
She at 61 at +14, 2 hours after the meal. Acts hungry - could mean she is lowering still.
What is your advise on shooting - now or at +18?

If at +18 - can I feed her now?
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Truly, if she were my cat, I would skip the shot and start over again in the morning as long as she has been ketone negative and eating well. I wouldn't suggest it if I didn't think it was safe as long as she has been well and stable. Ketones will not build up that fast and she has to have elevated ketones before she gets DKA. If a cat is eating, she will not develop DKA.

If you absolutely feel you cannot go without shooting and you can stay up until +18 and past....because you will need to monitor her....then you can feed her again now. You just wouldn't want to feed her two hours before her shot unless she's in the 30s again. Just be aware you could be up all night by yourself and potentially with low numbers if you shoot at +18.

Because of the depot, she might just surf green most of the night...we don't know. She's staying pretty low so far. She might rise into pink by AMPS but she's done that before. It usually does not take long for them to get right back on track after skipping a shot...esp if they have a full depot.
 
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