7.4 Frankie +12 124 AMPS 158

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Jay

Jay

Member Since 2010
Here we go again.

Spot Checks? Its obvious he came down over 200 points during his PM Cycle..whats the point in checking? To collect data for the sake of collecting data, and poking his ear?

All I keep seeing from this, is that when I shoot low he sky rockets back up to very high numbers. When I shoot high he drops.

This is more then frustrating. Its been 4 months now using this insulin, over testing, trying to stick to your protocol, trying to keep him safe while I'm at work all for what?

I give up with trying to keep and maintain low numbers. It has yet to work with this insulin, didnt work with PZIVet either and some here think he can go OTJ? That's even a bigger farce.

Keeping him as healthy as I can is my goal. No more of this exercize in futility.

He will get insulin when he needs it, no insulin when he doesnt.


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Jay
I am going to be direct here and I do not want you to read my post as being nasty or rude but just take it for for what it says.
First of all you are not following protocol or "our protocol" which you refer to. This is not some crazy scheme made up by Lantus users to drive people and cats crazy.
You say he came down over 200 points in 12 hours so what's the point in checking......I think you answered your own question. The point being he came down over 200 points in 12 hours but you have no idea what the numbers were in those hours that brought him down.
Actually myself and many others that have responded in your condo believe Lantus is working very well for Frankie but it does not seem to work for you. You complain about the high numbers so when anyone wants to guide you through shooting low you refuse saying you will not shoot low which would be following protocol. I can understand you are hesitant during the day when you are at work but at night and on the weekends would be the best time to collect data to give YOU more information to know that Frankie will be safe when you shoot low.
Four months is not a long time to expect miracles. Some cats go OTJ very quickly and some take longer and some may never go OTJ. Frankie has had a great response to Lantus but the constant skipping shots and refusing to shoot low and allow the people here that are very knowledgeable with Lantus to guide you is why you are not getting where you want to be.

If you took some time to look at others condos and spreadsheets maybe you would see that everyone else here has the same goals you do. Despite your lack of appreciation for all the help you received other people have still taken the time to post with helpful information and a lot of support. I have not seen you post anything in any other condo here.
You say you have a job and a life etc. etc. Everyone else here has a life too......some work two jobs, have kids, other animals, health issues, financial hardships, elderly parents, 2 or 3 diabetic cats etc....and they manage to follow protocol and have an outside life along with all the things I just described.

You have been very lucky to have somebody like D that was willing to come by and help you day after day and take time out of her busy life because she saw that Frankie could have a good chance to either be very well regulated or even go OTJ but I guess you know better. Libby, Jill , Sienne and many others have so much experience but once again you know better. Libby studies spreadsheets and got her own cat Lucy OTJ after almost 2 years. Why don't you read her profile and see the hard work she put into Lucy's care and how it payed off. Lucy was a very sick kitty for a long time and now you would never know it. You are very lucky that Frankie is so healthy and all you have to deal with is FD which is quite manageable if you would just listen.

I realize I am coming off a little harsh here and I am sorry if you take offense but I take offense to your post. Your dismiss what we are all doing here by suggesting that by following protocol that we are irresponsible and putting our cats in danger as if we don't want to keep our cats healthy, that our goals are to stick them with a needles all day for our own personal entertainment. To even suggest that what most if not all of us do here is a "farce" as you say is very offensive to me. I would give anything to have Putty respond to Lantus as well as Frankie is but I am pretty sure you have no idea how Putty or any other cat here responds to insulin because you have never once posted any encouragement or support to me or most others here to even know our cat's names never mind anything else.

I am going to tell you that if you are so interested in keeping Frankie healthy and happy the worst thing you could do is give him insulin when he needs it and skip shots when you don't think he needs it. It has to be very uncomfortable for him to go up and down 200 points day after day. Ask any human with diabetes how that feels and I am sure they will tell you that it feels lousy. So you keep doing what you are doing because you know better than anyone else here.
 
Miriam has summed up my thoughts eloquently. The only thing I would point out is that Lantus may take a greater commitment on the part of the bean than other types of insulin. It appears that it is the right insulin for Frankie. It may not be the right type of insulin for you, and that's OK. You may need to reconsider your choice of Lantus in view of what you are willing or not willing to do.
 
Two blue AMPS in a row...that's good. Frankie is looking better and better.

This is a frustrating situation...no doubt about it. :sad:
I hope that you will really give some thought to what Miriam wrote....she was quite thorough and it was nice of her to put that all down. like that.
We would all like to cheer you on and help make this work. You have come so far....

I have a question about the insulin. I notice that you haven't noted on your SS when you opened this pen/cartridge....I always make a note of it cause I am so forgetful. Just wondering how long you have been on the same one. (or did I miss it? If so, apologies....)
 
Miriam..I bow to you. I have tried and tried again to say this very same thing. In the same words, in other words, but only to deaf ears.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, right?

Jay is intent on having his own life and he is not willing to give up several beautiful sunny days or lovely evenings, or sleep to collect data...no matter how much he loves Frankie...and that's okay. But he's using the wrong insulin. Jay, you need to collect data to know how Frankie responds to this insulin. He's been on Lantus since March and you still basically have none. I KNOW that Alex will bounce if he goes too low. I KNOW that his nadir is around 6 or 7 hours but sometimes it goes to 11. I KNOW that it takes 8 cycles for a dose to settle for him which is longer than most cats and unless there are "problems" i should wait it out to see a result. What do you know? I was working for my vet for a month and watched him do a few 'diabetic demos'. I wanted to scream at the antiquity of his methods but his clients were happy. They thought they were helping their kitties and the less they knew the better.....shoot blindly and go (is that what you want, Jay) ?*sigh* :YMSIGH:



Missing shots and changing times and doses with Lantus is screwing Frankie up completely and can cause the exact situations that you're trying to avoid...hypo and/or the very high numbers. YOU never take the shed into account because you don't "get it" (and granted, it IS hard to get at first) but with a bean who can't see beyond your own desires, what YOU want... it's triply as hard.

My suggestion at this point would be to research another insulin. I have no clue which one but if you don't snap out of it and stop carrying this "I'll dose when I think it's necessary 'tude around about Lantus, you're GOING to hurt Frankie. I don't know when, but you will. I hate being a militant ball breaker but I think we've all seen enough attitude at this point when everyone has been trying so hard to help you. Get with the program Jay. We love Frankie and want to see him succeed.

And btw, you've been REALLY lucky with that vial..you NEED to buy a new one..if you can afford to buy cigarettes these days, you can certainly afford a new vial of Lantus every few months. The cigarettes are dangerous, the new vial of Lantus is imperative.(unless you think you know more than the manufacturer). And, for all the times you have emailed me to asked me how my boys are, you would have known if you had read my condo as well.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sorry. :-|

Caryl
 
Caryl and Alex said:
Miriam..I bow to you. I have tried and tried again to say this very same thing. In the same words, in other words, but only to deaf ears.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, right?

Jay is intent on having his own life and he is not willing to give up several beautiful sunny days or lovely evenings, or sleep to collect data...no matter how much he loves Frankie...and that's okay. But he's using the wrong insulin. Jay, you need to collect data to know how Frankie responds to this insulin. He's been on Lantus since March and you still basically have none. I KNOW that Alex will bounce if he goes too low. I KNOW that his nadir is around 6 or 7 hours but sometimes it goes to 11. I KNOW that it takes 8 cycles for a dose to settle for him which is longer than most cats and unless there are "problems" i should wait it out to see a result. What do you know? I was working for my vet for a month and watched him do a few 'diabetic demos'. I wanted to scream at the antiquity of his methods but his clients were happy. They thought they were helping their kitties and the less they knew the better.....shoot blindly and go (is that what you want, Jay) ?*sigh* :YMSIGH:



Missing shots and changing times and doses with Lantus is screwing Frankie up completely and can cause the exact situations that you're trying to avoid...hypo and/or the very high numbers. YOU never take the shed into account because you don't "get it" (and granted, it IS hard to get at first) but with a bean who can't see beyond your own desires, what YOU want... it's triply as hard.

My suggestion at this point would be to research another insulin. I have no clue which one but if you don't snap out of it and stop carrying this "I'll dose when I think it's necessary 'tude around about Lantus, you're GOING to hurt Frankie. I don't know when, but you will. I hate being a militant ball breaker but I think we've all seen enough attitude at this point when everyone has been trying so hard to help you. Get with the program Jay. We love Frankie and want to see him succeed.

And btw, you've been REALLY lucky with that vial..you NEED to buy a new one..if you can afford to buy cigarettes these days, you can certainly afford a new vial of Lantus every few months. The cigarettes are dangerous, the new vial of Lantus is imperative.(unless you think you know more than the manufacturer). And, for all the times you have emailed me to asked me how my boys are, you would have known if you had read my condo as well.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sorry. :-|

Caryl
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Do you think any thing here is really going to relieve my frustation with this sh-t

You want data about shooting low. Is this is how this is supposed to work? There comes a point in time that no matter what you do, say, no matter how you plan and agonize over it. It clearly doesnt work for Frankie the way (yeah its clinical, the protocol, in a lab, not with Frankie) this has been described.
Blame me, for testing and shooting. Blame me for missing doses when he clearly doesnt need one (in particular when I'm not here to monitor him) balme me for not giving you enough precious data to yet again blame me for trying to figure out how to make this work when it clearly doesnt, B;lame me for listening to all the advice here about shooting low, when you can just walk away from repsonsibility if I come home one day with a cat that has siezed, leaving me to pick up the pieces. Balme me for shoooting early (if shooting early is a dose increase, and he is moving up and is high, so be it. He needs the insulim)

Nothing here helps!

Whats the definition of insanity.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Its time for Frankie and me to leave here.

Here is data for you to rack your brains out trying to figure out why and how to make it right.

I give up with this ****. I'm leaving here. We have taken care of each other for the past 5 years without this board for most of that time. I think we can do fine on our own and try and find something that works for him as this clearly doesnt.



Here
Today
APMS 158, +2 129 +4 181

Very typical of what has been going on.; Shoot low, and he goes sky high. Why then shoot I shoot low to worry about whehter I'll come home to a siezed cat.

I'm outta here

Clearly he is rising, and will be once again high as kite by the time the 12 hours is over.
 
Perhaps if you had gotten a new vial of insulin as we have been suggesting that you do for over a month..you wouldn't be seeing these wonky numbers Jay. Just ask yourself a question before you leave. How can this protocol work for so many cats and not for Frankie? How can it work for kitties that not only have diabetes but several other problems that normally would stand in the way of any insulin working ?

Think that over PLEASE before you take away Frankie's shot at possibly getting off of insulin if not forever, well maybe a good long time. Then you wouldn't have to worry at all about leaving the house. You just said it yourself..when you shoot low, he goes high. So what are you afraid of. If you were willing to shoot bid and not just skip when you felt like it, you would have people willing to walk you through the ups and downs. Frankie is not a difficult cat as far as adjustments go. Not from what I can see. But it needs to be done correctly with fresh insulin and cooperation from you. This is NOT a BS protocol and it's already started working for Frankie. The only thing standing in the way of his success is...you :-|
 
I know that Frankie means an awful lot to you Jay. I wish that you would see it in your heart to get him a new cartridge or vial of insulin you if the stuff you are using is way over a month old. Is it that old?
I understand your frustration and anger. I hope you will maybe take a look at my Shadow's SS for a minute. This takes time and we are all doing our best to be consistent and work on this FD the best way we know how....for our kitties! Consistency works...and the protocol does too but it does take time...along with effective potent insulin. Can you get a hold of some new Lantus and see how that goes?
I hope you will keep posting Jay....for Frankie.
 
i'm posting as someone who doesn't know the whole story but wanted to add two elements i didn't see in the prior posts in this thread:

1. lantus has a shed, or what people call an insulin depot (you can look that up on the pet diabetes wikipedia). what we inject builds up under the skin to a certain point until it starts being used by the body a little bit at a time. so our responses generally don't come from what we just shot earlier but from a combination of prior shots and how the cat's body is using the insulin (which is determined by diet and other things). by skipping shots or shooting late we can deplete the shed or cause inconsistency in the amount of insulin available to him and how the cat uses the insulin. [we can -- we do what's safe til we have adequate data to try something new.]

2. dka. our kitties are diabetic because for some reason their bodies don't produce the insulin they need to convert food to energy or they can't use their endogenous insulin properly. if a diabetic cat isn't getting the insulin he/she needs he/she risks diabetic ketoacidosis, which can kill just as easily as hypo can. uncontrolled numbers can also cause other health conditions that are extremely serious such as kidney problems, organ damage, muscle wasting, starvation.


i specifically changed cleo's insulin to lantus because the tilly protocol excited me. but i'm not one of those who believe there's only one right answer to a question. if the tight regulation required by the tilly protocol is not workable for you and you're frustrated, i don't see why you can't just aim for a higher range of blood glucose values for your cat to take some of the pressure off you. yes, we believe tight regulation (mainly keeping our cats' BG values at 130 and lower) can help heal the pancreas so many cats go off the juice. but if that's not as important to you (and you have to take into account your own life, not just your cat's), then don't allow yourself to feel pressured by others. do remember, tho, that you risk other health concerns for your cat if the diabetes isn't regulated, and a way to regulate your cat is to use lantus consistently and to know his nadir numbers as well as preshots.

i guess the best advice anyone can give someone starting here is that old saw that diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint. some cats take a very long time to get used to diabetes treatment and overreact to bigger drops or numbers lower than they're used to. some cats here have gone through months of liver training. i think janice's spike went through that. it can be frustrating but once you've been at this a while i think the pressure lessens and you just "get it" (as does your cat).
 
Has anyone mentioned two key things: one is that it is possible that he nadirs at +12, or there abouts, so that is his low point? That would make shooting low ok, since he will rise from there and then come down by the following +12. This is the case for one of the lev kitties (lev ISG).

The other point is that some kitties do NOT follow the Tilly protocol - guess they didn't get the memo. My Beau is one of them. And it was frustrating as the protocol, and in general the advise I got here, didn't not work for him. In Beau's case it turns out he was rebounding and as I lowered the dose in .1u amounts his numbers got better, so I just kept going lower and he was OTJ about 3 months after starting lev. I just kept trying things until they worked. Incidentally, it took many frustrating months on the other insulin before I got any decent numbers.

Jay, I hate to see you give up on getting many eyes of experience looking at Frankie's numbers. Please reconsider. You are welcome on the lev ISG where there are fewer folks posting and offering advice. Maybe that is what you need? I can't promise that we can sort this out with you, but it is an offer - and I make it not to offend the LL folks. I just really hate to see your frustration drive you away.
 
Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Has anyone mentioned two key things: one is that it is possible that he nadirs at +12, or there abouts, so that is his low point? That would make shooting low ok, since he will rise from there and then come down by the following +12. This is the case for one of the lev kitties (lev ISG).

The other point is that some kitties do NOT follow the Tilly protocol - guess they didn't get the memo. My Beau is one of them. And it was frustrating as the protocol, and in general the advise I got here, didn't not work for him. In Beau's case it turns out he was rebounding and as I lowered the dose in .1u amounts his numbers got better, so I just kept going lower and he was OTJ about 3 months after starting lev. I just kept trying things until they worked. Incidentally, it took many frustrating months on the other insulin before I got any decent numbers.

Jay, I hate to see you give up on getting many eyes of experience looking at Frankie's numbers. Please reconsider. You are welcome on the lev ISG where there are fewer folks posting and offering advice. Maybe that is what you need? I can't promise that we can sort this out with you, but it is an offer - and I make it not to offend the LL folks. I just really hate to see your frustration drive you away.
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Hi Sheila, I'm sure your heart is in the right place in suggesting that Jay come over to the lev ISG... but I sort of cringe at the idea of them continuing with Lantus of Lev given Jay's style of FD management. I hope that makes sense.
And that's not me being critical - I simply think that they are better suited to the flexibility of PZI (compounded or perhaps prozinc)
And since I haven't been around much and I haven't been following Jay and Frankie's condos I can't say for certain... but I can't imagine that no one here would have pointed out a late nadir, if that were the case - since it's not all that uncommon... but it only takes a quick glance at Frankie's SS to see that that isn't the problem.
The problem is inconsistency and lack of data. (Lantus really works at it's most optimum when it is dosed consistently whereas PZI with it's lack of a shed is more forgiving in that regard)

But you are correct in stating that some kitties do NOT follow the Tilly protocol - mine doesn't ... and hasn't for years. (and a few others here in LL don't either)
But what we don't do is skip shots and shoot intuitively - we still depend upon our data and have a knowledge and respect for the insulin we are using.

Anyway, I wish you luck, Jay, in whatever you decide to do - I do wish you'd reconsider and maybe even just lurk for a while reading some of the old posts and seeinging that you aren't alone in feeling incredibly frustrated at times.
'Cause sometimes the definition of insanity is bailing out on something good before you've ever given it a chance ;-)
 
Jay has been told ad nauseum about the shed. he has been offered to work around his schedule by those who can help him with that. Everyone is aware that not every cat follows protocol..mine being one of them at times of ketosis. Jay is FAR from being chased off of this board. You gotta be at least a little bit willing to work with the people that are trying to help you. The catch phrase of every day can't always be "I can't, I won't, or this is BS".

Frankie is a great cat, Jay is a nice person. But he can't seem to find the time to learn about Lantus..the insulin he 'wants' to use. Or the impetus to buy a new vial. I find it to be ridiculous to have to remind someone that using a vial for 4 months is probably contributing to the wonky numbers.There is no witch hunt out on Jay. He is just plain unaware of everyone on this message board except himself and is refusing the many many offers of help that he has received.
(If he has ever posted on anyone's thread here that I'm unaware of then my mistake).

ETA: The only other condo That Jay has ever posted to is mine..4 times. And nothing was ever relevant to the concerns I was posing. I don't really care but I think to call something a bunch of bs you need a reason to do so which would mean looking at lots of ss's. Jay clearly hasn't.

I would also like to add that I DO NOT believe in bullying or militancy as far as this board is concerned. This could turn a desperate person away from the board. A person who we might have helped, might go and have their diabetic cat pts because they feel so overwhelmed. I KNOW that Jay will be okay and so will Frankie no matter what is said here tonight. Jay is a strong willed opinionated person who will ultimately do what he thinks is best for Frankie with or without our help because he does love him...and it will probably be the same thing either way. He has been doing this for 5 years as he says so often. So anyone new who reads this..Jay is a trooper and Frankie will be okay. I don't recommend this treatment on a newbie. NOT EVER! It could be the difference between life and death. Just sayin' :)
 
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