7/27charlie AM358+3 178+6 58+6.5 67+8 122 PMhi+.5 484 +5 288

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charliesmom

charliesmom

Member Since 2012
BG on the low side for +6. Is there a chance her nadir happened before +6 and she was even lower? Or is there a chance she could still go lower?
Should we be concerned? In a way it seems it's going in a better direction than yesterday (not such high figures). We're on about our 3rd/4th day of Lantus (if you consider that we started halfway through the day on the 23rd). Maybe that shed is starting to build up? Or maybe the medicine from yesterday (against the inflammation/bladder infection is helping in some way)?
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3 178, +6 58

"Yes" to all of your questions.

Lantus nadir can be either before or after +6. For example, Gabby's nadir is typically around +3 or +4. Some cats have an early nadir and some cats a late nadir. You also have to keep in mind that no matter when a cat's nadir may generally fall, it can change. Our cats like to keep us on our toes! However, looking at your numbers from this cycle, you'll need to get another test to see if numbers are coming down further. I would suggest giving Charlie a teaspoon or two of LC food just in case numbers are still dropping. The LC should slow down the momentum.

The insulin depot could largely be in place. Usually it takes 5 - 7 days but ECID (every cat is different).

If an infection/inflammation is present, it raises BG numbers. Not surprisingly, once the infection is being treated, numbers can drop and sometimes, they can drop dramatically. This is another reason to get a +7 test.
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3 178, +6 58

Gave her 2 teaspoons of LC food. I assume LC means low carb dry food? We gave her 2 teaspoons of the Hills A/D food. She's eating it behind the couch. Will test again in 15 minutes at +7. Thanks for the fast response. Charlie is so thankful to have friends who are there for her. ;-)
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3 178, +6 58

Normally LC is meant to stand for low carb wet/canned food. May I ask what Charlie's regular diet is? I was looking for your profile - have you had a chance to set one up yet?

Jane
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

Will look into setting up the profile now. Lot's on my to do list today related to Charlie, and also working from home at the same time, so not possible to do everything all at once. Sorry for the slowness on this guys as I know this will help you help us.

Still trying to find the right diet for Charlie. In general, we have completely gone off all dry food. We do have some "hills m/d diabetes dry" on hand which we intend to never touch again. However, today, I got confused and gave her 2 teaspoons of that after your message. OOPS. She's doing fine though so no worries.

Diet is in general only wet food with less than 1-2% carbs. As this is Amsterdam, many of the foods on the list are not available. Our new holistic vet recommended the following and here are the ones she likes/dislikes:
- Raw food (frozen, prepared from new vet) - Rabbit or chicken & rabbit meat. Charlie tried once and will not touch it, so we stopped with this for the moment.
- Almo Nature Chicken breast or chicken drumstick - Charlie likes it. We will stick with it.
- Von Feinstein chicken heart - Charlie loves it.
- Natural health pure & simple (ostrich or turkey flavors) Charlie doesn't like as much, but eats it. We'll stick with it.
- Carny (meat mix) - Charlie hasn't tried it yet

The ER vet also gave us 2 cans of:
- Hills presciption A/D critical care wet food - This can be forcefed using a syringe. Charlie didn't like it over the weekend when we did that. However, at 4am last night when she woke me crying for food, I gave her some of this (as I'm still a bit worried she's dehydrated/not getting all the nutrients she needs). Figured if she was hungry enough, she'd eat it. She ate it. We still have a bit in the fridge but will not use this frequently in the future. Just using what's left over.

So far today her diet has been:
- 4am (hills prescription a/d critical care) - 1/4th can
- 7am (von feinstein chicken heart) - 1/2 can
- little bit of tuna (as treat with each blood test)
- 1pm (ish) - 1/4th can more of von feinstein chicken heart
- 2 spoons of hills prescription a/d during her low BG period (OOPS!)

I realize this is a lot of food for a cat who needs to lose weight and stay very strictly fed in order to get regulated. She has had so much vomiting and diarrhea last weekend and also more diarrhea this week (prior to the anti-diarrhea medicine) that I just want to be sure she gets enough food this week. Now that she's hungry again, I'm a little bit following her lead. When she's hungry, we feed her a little bit. In time, I would like to manage this more tightly (also it will have to happen as we work during the days and can't feed her all throughout the day normally). In general we plan to feed her at 7am with her shot, at 7pm with her shot, and before bed. Plus small tuna treats during blood tests. Need to find the right quantities though.

Can someone help us figure out the quantities of food to give and if there are strict requirements for feeding at certain times with lantus? Charlie's weight has gone from above 5.8 kilos to now 5.2 kilos (or maybe less, as that weight reading was done last Sunday at the ER vet). We will weigh her again tonight but in general our vet advised us to get her weight to between 4 kilos and 4.5 (most realistically 4.5 for her age range, she says).
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

Hi again Jill,

thanks for that in-depth response! In case you haven't got it, here's the link for setting up your FDMB Profile. Don't worry at all about needing a bit of time to get everything done - getting all the FDMB ducks in a row just takes a while. :smile:

I'm glad to read you've gone off dry food - that's what most folks around here recommend. Of course there are always die-hard dry-addicts amongst our sugarkitties that refuse to comply with what we think they should eat. They are cats, after all!

As far as how much food and how many calories are required, I think I'll hold off on input, since I see Charlie needs to shed some extra weight and we've not got any experience with that - and also, all our cats free-feed so they pretty much self-regulare when it comes to how many calories etc. they get daily. Seems to work since they're all at their ideal weight :smile: Your feeding routine (i.e. at shot-time, with treats for BG tests) sounds pretty standard-issue: the "test, shoot, feed" routine is one that very many here follow and that works well for most cats. Have you had a look around Dr. Lisa Pierson's website? If you do have time amongst all the other things, that's a great place to get informed on feline nutrition and all its aspects: Dr. Pierson's Website. Dr. Pierson recommends that most cats eat 20 calories per pound per day. Here's an old FDMB thread that discusses it: Thread about Food and Calorie Intake. Hope those are helpful to you!

It sounds like you're already making good progress on getting Charlie to slim down to her ideal weight. I'm sure you'll get there!
Jane
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

There is no one "right" way to feed. The only thing we do suggest is to not feed between +10 and shot time. Some people here free feed canned food. I give Gabby "mini-meals" over the first several hours of the cycle. For now, I'd suggest not feeding Charlie after nadir. Once you're past nadir, there's less insulin available to offset the effect of food.

With the foods you are giving, do you know if they are nutritionally complete for a cat's diet? Most commercially prepared canned foods are -- they contain a range of vitamins and minerals (especially taurine) that are necessary for a cat's good health.

A/D is a medium carb food (13%) as is the dry M/D. We consider low carb any canned food that's below 10%. However, most of us feed considerably below 10%.

Dr. Lisa's website has a good section on obesity. She suggests that you based food on calories and uses this formula: Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70. She notes it's a "generous" formula so weighing your cat will help you to know if you need to reduce the amount of food.
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

You guys really are impressive in the vast amounts of quick facts you are able to supply whenever needed. Honestly, I wish I had as much to give to the people of this board as we are getting (in terms of support, information, etc).

Again, thank you for everything guys. :smile:
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

charliesmom said:
You guys really are impressive in the vast amounts of quick facts you are able to supply whenever needed. Honestly, I wish I had as much to give to the people of this board as we are getting (in terms of support, information, etc). Again, thank you for everything guys. :smile:
Click to expand...

You're very welcome, Jill!

Also, Sienne is right to point out that for overweight and/or obese cats, Dr. Pierson's "20cal/pound/day" rule of thumb does not apply. I quoted it mainly as a point of reference. If you have time, do visit Dr. Pierson's site and read. There is so, so much info at your fingertips :smile:

Have a great Friday!
Jane
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

The more you learn, the better you can pay it forward.

Having been here for a while, helps! I have lots of cat info bookmarked.
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

Charlie's looking great! It will definitely take time for that shed to build up in her. With regards to the nadirs, Blackie had nadirs from +4 - +6, and now her nadirs are at +3. Keep up the excellent work! :mrgreen:
 
Re: 7/27 Charlie AMPS 358, +3=178, +6=58, +6.5=67, +8=122

Ah, the emergence of the shed! Lantus just takes a little while to get going! :lol: Don't worry if Charlie's numbers go up again after this. He liver isn't used to dealing w/ normal BG numbers and "panics" by dumping stored glucose and hormones to protect the brain from hypo even though the numbers are actually safe. Also the dry food that you gave will stick around longer than the wet food so you will see the effect of that longer too.

Many of us feed several small meals a day, it prevents a big load of food hitting the system at once and is the way cats normally eat. They catch a mouse eat it and go out hunting for the next course. Those here who have to work to pay for all the cat fuds and meds often use a timed feeder. Some have only one or two compartments and just pop open. Others have rotating trays that can be programmed to open at different times. We use one like that and leave the last tray empty so it rotates to an empty spot and I don't have to get up at 5am(+10) to take any left overs away!

Since Charlie has had so many upsets this last week I think getting her to eat regularly is the first step. Then start worrying about the weight loss and calories. It is also very important to go slowly w/ weight loss for cats or other problems can arise. The formula that Sienne gave you is a generous amount of calories for weight loss, but a good starting point. Most cat food cans will have the calories per can listed or it will be available on the company's website. Don't think about the volume of food (numbers of cans or grams) think about calories.

I sat down and worked out the calories per ounce for all the foods I feed Tess so I know how much of each different type she would need. For example Tess gets Wellness Turkey frequently, it is 39.6kcal/oz. She would need 4.25oz of that per day (she is a small cat!) She also gets Nature's Variety Raw Organic Chicken at 65kcal/oz. Tess would only get 2.75oz a day of the raw food. That is a big difference in the volume, but the calories are the same.
 
7/27CharlieAMPS358+3 178+6 58+6.5 67+8 122PMPS hi+.5 484

Pmps came out as HI. Charlie was stressed. Not sure if this was a stress reaction or a meter problem. Re-tested at 7:30 pm (+.5) and she came out at 26.9 (in US terms...484). Charlie was again stressed during this test. We will give her a break and test again at +3 or 4.
 
Re: 7/27CharlieAMPS358+3 178+6 58+6.5 67+8 122PMPS hi+.5 484

We cross posted, it's a bounce because Charlie's liver isn't used to normal numbers anymore. It will clear, give her ears a rest but remember the bounce yesterday cleared really quickly! Try to check at when you think her nadir will be. Sometime I sneak up on Tess when she is sleeping and the whole test is done before she wakes up! :lol: :lol:


ETA: here is a link to yesterday's condo we always put in a link so advisors can quickly go back and catch up.
 
Re: 7/27charlie AM358+3 178+6 58+6.5 67+8 122 PMhi+.5 484 +5

Hi Jill

Welll.....I am very glad I never got back to posting to you last night to increase the dose :-D :-D Sienne and I had discussed it and thought you could take her up a bit but you shot the next dose before we came to a conclusion so it all worked out great!!!!

Two things I'll add to the food discussion: I agree with Ann that feeding small meals up to nadir is good thing for a pancreas trying to heal. So, to the extent you can do it, it will help Charlie's pancreas. Also, Dr. Lisa recommends that weight loss be no more than 1-2% per week. I started with the formula Sienne gave you and let the cats eat that much for one week; weighed....they'd gained weight. I decreased it by 1%, fed a week, weighed, etc. until I got to a point where they were holding steady and neither gaining or losing weight (because they don't need to). It takes patience and you just have to do it very slowly.

Each morning, I weigh out Gracie and Tobey's portions using a digital scale. So they get the same number of calories every day (well, except when Gracie takes a walk into the 30s, and then she gets a little more but then I put her in the pool and make her swim a few laps. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: just kidding).

You're doing just fine....we're all happy to help.

Ann linked your previous day's condo for you. Here are the instructions on how to do it and it is extremely helpful and valuable to us in giving you advice. Thank you!!

1. go to previous day's condo and copy link in browser
2. open a "new topic" and put your cursor in the big text box
3. click on the URL box above the text box
4. paste your link in between the boxes so it looks like this: Paste Link Here

If you want to make it fancy, do this:
1. remove the second bracket and put in an =
2. put the second bracket at the end of your link
3. in between the second and third bracket, put whatever title you like....some are like the one above, others are "Yesterday", whatever you like so we know it is the condo from the day before
4. highlight it all and then click on the B in the line above the text box to bold your title. So it looks like this: 7/17 Condo (note: I didn't add the "b" or else it will just bold it and you won't see them anyway) starts working.
 
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