7/14 Fin pmps 487 - Starting Lantus soon, have questions...

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tecwmn

Member Since 2010
Hi there. I am going to be switching my cat, Fin, over to Lantus starting either tomorrow evening or Friday. Which leads to my first question....

Can you use two different long acting insulins on the same day or should I do both shots of ProZinc tomorrow and then start the Lantus on Friday or can I do an amps of ProZinc and then Lantus at the pmps?

Also, I am going to be changing his feeding schedule from two large meals a day to every six hours with a timed feeder. Should I wait to stabalize him on the Lantus and then switch the food or vice versa?

Thanks so much for your advice! I am a little nervous about changing insulin....

Barbi, Fin, C.C. and MiAmor
 
The feeding of more meals per day, is a good idea.
Please wait for people with more experience than I, but I think you can switch insulins in one day.
My posting will help to bump up your thread.
 
Just wanted to say welcome to Lantus Land! Hang in there - someone with more knowledge will be around to answer your questions!
 
Welcome to Lantus Land.

To be honest, there isn't a great deal of information about switching from ProZinc to Lantus. There seems to be some debate on the board whether ProZinc is a depot-type of insulin (vs. a long-acting insulin only), much like Lantus or Lev. I couldn't find anything to support it being a depot insulin in the research literature. Many people here have made a direct switch from Lantus to Levemir -- both are long-acting, depot type insulin. At least based on that information, a switch from one cycle to the next wouldn't be a problem. There have been a handful of people who have skipped insulin for one cycle when switching from ProZinc to Lantus/Lev.

I don't think it matters when you switch your feeding schedule. Most of us feed more than twice a day and we use a lot of different variations on feeding schedules. How you eventually end up feeding will probably depend on how you see Fin responding to Lantus and how you may want to use food as a factor in the cycle.

The switch to Lantus may take a different mindset than using ProZinc. Take a look at the starred sticky notes at the top of the Board. In particular, you may want to look at the Tight Regulation Protocol and the New to the Board information.
 
Hi I can give no advice but welcome to LL and I have my boy on a feeding schedule now small meals thru the day to try to help him surf at least thats the plan :-D
 
Thanks for bumping up my thread. I am thinking about feeding every six hours with a timed feeder (Fin is a piggy so I can't leave food out). I have read all the stickies at the top of the page. I recently read the release from AAHA on Diabetes Management and will be following that protocol (attached).

The ProZinc wasn't working well for him and I have concerns around it being unregulated and consistency. If it works for him, I think a regulated human insulin makes more sense (not to mention all the experienced users here :-D )

My vet wants me to start at 2.5u BID. Not entirely comfortable starting that high. So, I may start him at 2u BID and take it up or down from there as necessary. Any other advice or things I should be aware of?

I just want the poor guy to feel better. Thanks!
 

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You should be aware that the AAHA protocol is not the one we use here. We use a protocol that has been specifically developed for the use of Lantus and Levemir and is supported by peer-reviewed veterinary research. Our starting dose and subsequent dosing guidelines are based on those protocols. For example, our starting dose is based on ideal weight and factors in previous insulin. You can see the formula in the Tilly Protocol that's linked in the protocol sticky. We have had incredible success using this protocol. I would urge you to compare the protocols. For one, the AAHA guidelines seem to encourage less home testing (e.g., testing the first week is at the discretion of the vet). We strongly encourage home testing based on the research and the success rates.
 
Hi Barbi and Fin

welcome to Lantus Land.

You've gotten good feedback! I will add a little, and that is, piggy kitty's is common when they are not regulated.
I would not be surprised if this changed for Fin as he progresses with Lantus.
I too felt I couldn't leave food out for Luna, but he did come around eventually and learned to stick with a feed schedule.

Most definitely, it will require patience on your end. So be prepared for that.
The Lantus forum is a data happy forum, I highly encourage you to test when you are around, especially those pre-shots and mid cycle tests.
Bringing down the dose will depend on what the numbers say thru the cycles, not on pre-shot number alone.. so it is important to catch them when you can.
 
We just switched from ProZinc, so maybe I can help you a bit. First thing - why was is dose lowered from 3u to 2u in the past few days? Usually you will keep the same dose (roughly) when you switch, so 2.5u is perfectly acceptable. I don't think that ProZinc has a shed/depot like Lantus/Levemir, but I do think that it has a residual build up in the body that aids in the duration of the insulin over time. Due to this, your first dose on Lantus may give you more of a drop than you will see on subsequent cycles. Be sure to be around to test mid cycle a couple of times on that first dose. Other than that, you should be fine!
 
hello and welcome to the group! :-D
i'll try to answer your questions...

tecwmn said:
Can you use two different long acting insulins on the same day or should I do both shots of ProZinc tomorrow and then start the Lantus on Friday or can I do an amps of ProZinc and then Lantus at the pmps?
you can start lantus 12 hours from fin's last shot of prozinc.

Also, I am going to be changing his feeding schedule from two large meals a day to every six hours with a timed feeder. Should I wait to stabalize him on the Lantus and then switch the food or vice versa?
you can go ahead and change his feeding schedule. many of us have found mini-meals served throughout the day work well. however, we do try to avoid feeding within 2 hours of shot time.

mid-cycle spot checks will eventually help you figure out the best times to feed fin. ECID.

My vet wants me to start at 2.5u BID. Not entirely comfortable starting that high. So, I may start him at 2u BID and take it up or down from there as necessary. Any other advice or things I should be aware of?
when switching to lantus from another insulin, we generally recommend a slightly reduced dose unless kitty has or is prone to ketones. the reason we suggest a slightly reduced dose is we've seen some kitties show a dramatic response to lantus sometime during the first few cycles. we highly encourage mid-cycle spot checks to catch this in case fin happens to be one of these kitties.

we're very much a numbers driven forum. collecting and analyzing the data is how we offer dosing suggestions. there really isn't enough data on your spreadsheet for me to feel comfortable recommending an initial starting dose of lantus. whatever dose you decide to go with, please test at every shot time and get mid-cycle spot checks whenever possible. the more data you collect, the more we'll be able to help.

here's the recommendation when starting lantus/lev:

"In many cases, the starting dose of Lantus or Levemir has been 0.25 IU per kg of the cat's ideal weight and is always dosed BID (two times a day, 12 hours apart). If the cat received another kind of insulin previously, the starting dose should be raised or lowered by taking this information into account. When selecting a starting dose, it is important to know that while Lantus and Levemir have a longer duration than other insulins, they also have a lower potency in most cats.

The cat should be monitored closely on the first 3 days on Lantus/Levemir: do curves between the AM and PM-doses, e.g. AM pre-shot, +3 hours, +6 hours, +9 hours, PM pre-shot. Generally the starting dose is kept for 3 days. Test for ketones daily. Cats that have a tendency to get ketones and/or who are getting relatively high flat curves after the switch should have their dose raised earlier (after 24-48 hours). It is extremely rare that a cat will need to have its dose reduced in the first 3 days, but if the cat falls below 50 mg/dl, reduce the dose.

Measuring curves regularly is important, as well as measuring all pre-shots and taking random spot checks. It is important to know that most cats do not have reproducibly-timed nadirs. It also is not uncommon for a nadir to occur at +12 hours after a shot. If you are fortunate to have a cat with a very reproducible response, you can test less often than with a cat that has a varied response."

http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm

if you haven't already, please read through the stickies at the top of the forum. as sienne pointed out, most here use the dosing guidelines suggested in the tight regulation protocol. the guidelines are a good place to start, but may or may not have to be modified at some point for fin. data collection will provide the answers.

hope to see you posting often...
 
Wow, that is great information. Thank you so much.

Kelly, the 3u on his chart was a typo - he has been on 2u for the last couple of days. I started the Lantus at 2u and I grabbing multiple readings tonight. I also started his new food schedule (which he seems pretty happy about... \M/ \M/ \M/ ).
 
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