6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92, +8/90 FOOD QUESTION

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Deb and Pepper

Member Since 2011
So I halved Pepper's insulin and switched to all wet food yesterday. A good thing.

I miss judged the amount I need to feed him today because I got the pouches instead of the canned food and they are only 3 oz. not 5.5 oz. A bad thing. No wonder he was so hungry at +4! And no wonder his BG is so low too. I about freaked when I saw 62!

Anyways, I fed him a WHOLE pouch at PMPS +4 and will test again at +6 to make sure it's not still going down.

Is it possible I also need to go down a little more on the insulin too? He was on 2U b.i.d. for 6 days, now I'm giving him 1U b.i.d.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62

the answer to that is to wait and see. what was the pouch food - is it low carb?

you'll want to test in a half hour or so and see where pepper is, deb. you should keep posting the new number in your subject line. i don't know what that food is, but if it's not low carb pepper will probably pop up and stay there, but for now you'll want to test and see.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62

My reaction was the same as Julie's. If it's the Wellness pouch food, they are around 10 - 12% carb (that's from memory so it could be wrong). In any event, please get a +4.5.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

Sorry, was reading and didn't see your posts till I went to post my +6. The pouches are Friskies brand. I think (hope) they are the same as the canned only 3 oz. instead of 5.5 oz. Seared Filets with Beef and Chicken, Fine Cuts with Chicken in Gravy, and Seared Filets with Turkey and Giblets. The names are the same on both cans and pouches so I take it they are the same.

And I am feeding him low carb. After this fiasco, I have looked at the canned food list better and have re-thought what I will be feeding him. There are 5 varieties of 9-Lives that are 4-6 carbs and about 160 cals. Since he needs to gain back about 3 lbs, I will feed him half a can of the 9-Lives at the shot and half a pouch at the +4 test and he will be getting right about 200 cals and 10 carbs a day total. (I cut the carbs and cals in half for the pouches since they are about half the size of the same canned food) Is that OK?

Oh, and I want to give him treats after tests when I don't feed him (gets him to want to test if I bring the snack package with me to the bathroom) but I see they are so high in carbs. Can I dehydrate my own meats instead? And if so, how would I judge the carbs and cals for them?

And I wasn't worried about him going hypo on me and not noticing. He won't get more than 2" from me except when he eats or potties...lol He demands to be on my lap all the time...lol
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

I think the pouches are usually pretty high carb. I can tell you that most likely the one that says "in gravy" is.

Also. When it says 4-6 carb on the list, that means that 4 to 6 PERCENT of the calories in that meal come from Carbohydrates. This means that the remaining 94 - 96 percent of calories will be from Fat and Protein (the other two macronutrients). I think there is a sticky or a floaty around here somewhere that explains this in good detail. Perhaps someone else here will be able to link to it.

If you want to post the ingredients listed on each of the pouches we could probably get an idea if they are carb dense or not. Words that end in -ose (glucose, sucrose...etc) are sugars. If it says syrup in there (eg corn syrup), that is sugar. Starch, is plant sugars. There may be other key words that may tip us off.

You might want to look at the ingredients on your low carb cans to compare and become familiar. I know at first I had a hard time with the list since I am in canada and there are like 5 different kinds of Fancy Feast Chicken Feast here, and only one of them is a safe low carb option. I actually had to return a batch last week because I bought the "sliced" version instead of the "pate" by accident, and saw gravy when I opened the can. Oops.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

It looks like your pouched food is at about 9 to 11 percent carbs (if my google-fu is accurate).
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

i would be suspicious of the pouches and would want to check for sure on the carbs. the kind that is low-carb is, as far as i know, the pate kind. that means that it's like a solid chunk in the can.

for treats, i just boiled 2 chicken breasts and diced them small - like 1/2" pieces. put it in a freezer ziplock bag and in the freezer and brought out about a tablespoon at a time. one piece is a treat. it's tiny, but when you're poking and you don't want to affect their blood sugar you want small. i've been using that bag of diced chicken since march and it just ran out this week so it's not particularly hard to make it yourself.

whenever you make a significant change either in treatment or in food, you want to watch pepper and test him more often to keep him safe.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

peppers mom said:
(I cut the carbs and cals in half for the pouches since they are about half the size of the same canned food) Is that OK?
Click to expand...

I see what you are doing now. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. Those foods are still going to be between nine to eleven percent carbs no matter what portion you feed.

Lets say you pour a cup of coffee. You really like milk in your coffee so you fill up 1/3 of the cup with milk, and fill it up the rest of the way with coffee. You now have a cup that is about 70 percent coffee, and 30 percent milk. If you pour that into a cup that is half the size, and only drink half of it, you are still drinking a drink that is 70 percent coffee, and 30 percent milk. If you take just one sip, one third of what you just sipped is going to be milk, and two thirds is coffee...etc.

Edit: If this is the case then you may want to keep a really close eye on pepper if you do switch again to an even lower carb food, since he dropped so nicely today on that 1 unit on the food that you listed.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

OK, so here's what the pouches say:

Seared Filets with Turkey and Giblets

Ingredients
Water sufficient for processing, liver, turkey, wheat gluten, poultry giblets, chicken, artificial and natural flavors, corn starch-modified, soy flour, soy protein concentrate, added color, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, taurine, choline chloride, salt, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), copper sulfate, manganese sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide. A-6272

Fine Cuts with Chicken in Gravy

Ingredients
Water Sufficient For Processing, liver, turkey, wheat Gluten, poultry Giblets, chicken, natural & Artificial Flavors, corn Starch-modified, soy Flour, soy Protein Concentrate, caramel Color, titanium Dioxide, tricalcium Phosphate, potassium Chloride, taurine, choline Chlorode, salt, vitamin E Supplement, thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), vitamin A Supplement, ferrous Sulfate, zinc Sulfate, manganese Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), niacin, calcium Pantothenate, copper Sulfate, riboflavin Supplement(vitamin B-2), vitamin D-3 Supplement, dicalcium Phosphate, vitamin B-12 Supplement, menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex(source of Vitamin K Activity), folic Acid, cobalt Carbonate, potassium Iodide, biotin.

Seared Filets with Beef and Chicken

Ingredients
Water sufficient for processing, liver, wheat gluten, beef, chicken, turkey, artificial and natural flavors, fish, corn starch-modified, soy flour, soy protein concentrate, added color, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, taurine, salt, choline chloride, thiamine mononitrate, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, niacin, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide. A-6270

So I looked at Friskies web site and they don't have the canned version of these 3, only the pouches. I was going on what the Binky list said when I said they have the same name as canned, could it be these pouches are what is really listed there?
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

I assumed what was on binkys list is what you have. Which means they are 9-11 percent carbs. You'll notice the 'modified corn-starch' in the list. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

I also noticed you said your cat needs to gain weight? Did you say you are trying to limit his intake to 200 calories? Just wondering, since you seemed to mention that pepper was quite hungry. Are you keeping the calories lower because you think that means he will be getting less carbohydrates?

Edit: If this is the case then feed your cat more if he is hungry. Like I said, the numbers (for Carbs, Fats etc..) on Binkys list is in percents. So if you feed Pepper one pouch that is 10% carbs, he will still be getting the same percentage of carbohydrates in his diet even if he eats FOUR of those pouches.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

I read somewhere, I think on FDMB, I need to feed him 15-20 cals per lb of weight a day. I figured that meant between 180-240 cals a day. 12x 15= 180, 12x20=240

He's down to 9 lbs from his usual 12. I didn't want him to gain weight too fast and throw off his BG when he gets to 12 so I figured I'd add it slowly. Am I wrong in my thinking? Should I be feeding him more?
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

peppers mom said:
I read somewhere, I think on FDMB, I need to feed him 15-20 cals per lb of weight a day. I figured that meant between 180-240 cals a day. 12x 15= 180, 12x20=240

He's down to 9 lbs from his usual 12. I didn't want him to gain weight too fast and throw off his BG when he gets to 12 so I figured it's add it slowly. Iam I wrong in my thinking? Should I be feeding him more?
Click to expand...

You might want more experienced eyes than me to answer that question. There are a whole bunch of people awake right now because a few kitties have some low BG's right now. So if you change the subject in your first post to add "Food Question?" to it, you might get some more eyes in here who know you have a question. ;)
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

i think corn starch is probably carbs too - but don't "know" that.

i think you're safest if you just stick to the food off the list unless you know for certain that these are low-carb foods. it's probably easier to do that than to try to figure out how many carbs are in these pouches. also i wondered about wheat gluten - it's carbs, not just sugar that you're looking out for. i wonder if wheat gluten has carbs in it. we use gravy not because it's sugary but because the flour in it has carbs and that pulls up their blood sugar.

as far as weight goes, the idea is that you help them maintain a healthy weight for their bodies. so punkin is 14ish pounds and he's just right - i give him 3 cans of fancy feast a day, broken up into 4 meals, plus he finishes anya's plate at every meal. according to the calories/can and the formula he should be eating 4 cans a day. you may have to tinker a bit to find what helps him weigh an appropriate amount.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

hey there- quick note, wheat gluten- that's another carb additive.
 
Re: 6-9 Pepper PMPS 215, +4/62, +6/92

Thanks for popping in to help guys. I'd hate to think that I was giving bad advice.

But doesn't Pepper have a great mom?! She's seriously doing so well so quickly.
 
deb, i just saw your question about quick vs slow weight gain. if you think 12lbs is his good weight and he lost weight because he was newly diabetic, and he's wanting more food, i'd let him have it. if he doesn't care, then maybe a slow weight gain return is fine, but most diabetic cats are starving. if he should be 12, i'd let him get back to it. he'll feel better, i'd think.
 
btw deb, i think you have 2 pm's from me in your inbox from the other day about creating your profile . . . :-D they show that they're in my outbox.
 
Thank you all for your help. It is SO VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!! This would be a LOT more stressful if not for all of you. nailbite_smile

He looks so anorexic. He's sucked in just before his hips instead of having a little "beer belly" like he did have...rofl

OK...so the pouches are gone! I can do 3 cans a day. I'm sure he won't mind a bit :lol:
 
if he looks anorexic, let him regain his weigh, in my opinion. he'll feel better at his normal weight!

you're very welcome - we've all had people stay and hold our hands through it too. you'll be helping someone else in no time! just glad pepper's fine and we got the food thing figured out.
 
it took me a bit to get used to the food charts.

(sorry for my short response earlier, condo hopping)

food companies are not forthcoming and you are doing your diligence in getting everything together for pepper, props to you!

things you want to look for as key words: grain free

grain free is different than gluten free. grain free means no rice, corn wheat, etc... etc... it will be your lowest carb choice. glueten free can have some grain in it (ie rice).

your numbers are looking really good tonight.

keep studying up the food charts and keep asking questions. questions are good!!!!
 
Just remember, if you do chose lower carb canned food, his number may go lower, so keep that in mind. Maybe mention the change when it happens in your next condo so the people reading will know.

Mention that you were feeding the pouches at around 10% carbs, and then mention what you are currently feeding and when the change took place, when you post his Blood Glucose numbers. It will help the more experienced people to give you more specific advice if you need their help to deal with low numbers all of a sudden.

I hope you have a great night :)
 
So I have a question about what beggargirl said about Binky's list being % not the actual carbs. Where/how do I find out what it really is?
 
in my signature line there is a post on what to do if you have a low-pre-shot number. basically if you are uncomfortable, you ask for dosing advice in your morning condo subject line.

give people a half hour at least to be able to answer you - so you might want to test at +11 and post that number.

what i did about the food - i just picked some off the list and i only feed those. so i give punkin fancy feast chicken feast, turkey & giblets and classic beef. i have some fish ones that all are on the list that i give him only on the weekend - i guess fish can be hard on the urinary tracts of boy cats. basically the chicken and turkey are almost all the time, beef every few days and fish once a week. then i don't worry about checking various carb amounts.
 
saw your pm - we count by the percentage, not the actual, if i'm not mistaken. if all the food you give is the percentage of low carb (under 10%) then you don't have to count the grams of carbs. i answered you here so that others can add their 2 cents worth, because this isn't something i know a lot about.

i just stick to those foods and don't worry about it.
 
some of the 9 lives are ok. the 3rd column is the carb% stay under 10 at least - so not the "ground plus care/ocean whitefish" but the rest on this list are probably ok. this is from the Janet & Binky's list http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html

9-Lives: submitted by Sally & Blue Eyes, Erimess & Sammy, Jeanene and Chase, Sandy & Hobbes 5.5 oz can

Gourmet Poached Salmon Entrée 35 61 4 0.3 356 130/4oz

Ground Beef & Rice Dinner 36 54 10 0.4 370 161

Ground Chicken & Rice Dinner 36 56 9 0.5 407 157

Ground Chicken,Lamb & Rice Dinner 35 56 9 0.5 411 159

Ground Plus Care/Ocean Whitefish 34 50 15 0.8 252 154

Ground Prime Grill/Beef 38 58 3 0.4 412 162

Ground Salmon Supreme Entrée/Vitamin Enhanced 36 61 3 0.4 390 164

Ground With Tuna & Shrimp 42 55 4
 
here are the ones from the janet & binky's list of newer varieties:

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

again, the carb% is the 3rd column - so not the Chicken & Cheese Banquet, but the rest are probably ok.

9-Lives: submitted by Sally & Blue Eyes, Erimess & Sammy, Jeanene and Chase, Sandy & Hobbes 5.5 oz can

Chicken & Beef Dinner 38 58 4 0.4 347 162 1/06

Chicken & Cheese Banquet 43 33 23 0.4 278 147 1/06

Flaked Tuna in Sauce 69 29 2 0.2 234 147 1/06

Flaked Tuna with Cheese Bits 64 28 8 0.2 222 140 1/06

Flaked Tuna with Egg Bits 64 28 8 0.2 222 140 1/06

Ground Chicken & Seafood Dinner 40 56 4 0.5 373 154 1/06

Ground Chicken & Tuna Dinner 39 57 4 0.4 351 161 1/06

Ground Chicken Dinner 39 57 4 0.4 364 159 1/06

Ground Liver & Bacon Dinner 35 60 6 0.3 302 176 1/06

Ground Seafood Platter 38 56 5 0.4 340 161 1/06

Ground Super Supper 38 56 5 0.4 352 159 1/06

Ground Turkey & Giblet Dinner 45 49 6 0.3 389 156 1/06

Ground Turkey Dinner 41 54 5 0.3 359 154 1/06

Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Dinner 47 47 5 0.4 420 145 1/06

Ocean Whitefish Dinner 47 48 5 0.4 441 145 1/06

Prime Entrée w/ Real Salmon 37 57 5 0.3 353 159 1/06

Prime Entrée w/ Tuna & Shrimp 42 51 7 0.3 401 167 1/06

Prime Grill w/ Beef 40 55 6 0.4 333 159 1/06
 
These are the ones I was going to feed


Chicken & Beef Dinner 38 58 4 0.4 347 162
Flaked Tuna in Sauce 69 29 2 0.2 234 147
Ground Chicken Dinner 39 57 4 0.4 364 159
Ground Turkey & Giblet Dinner 45 49 6 0.3 389 156
Ground Turkey Dinner 41 54 5 0.3 359 154
Prime Grill w/ Beef 40 55 6 0.4 333 159
 
those are all good. pepper's going to be one happy little kitter. hopefully put on a little weight too - won't you be happy to have your old kitty back!?!

i'm off to bed now - you did great tonight. see ya in the morning!
 
Good morning Deb,

I'm a little confused....weren't you shooting on a 2:30am/2:30pm schedule? Or am I confusing you with someone else? Did you change your schedule?

For info on nutrition, and how much to feed, you can look on Dr Lisa's site. Here's a link to a good post/discussion about feeding as much as kitty wants. You should not overfeed by large amounts...it makes it harder to regulate your cat. It may be ok to feed a little more than what he needs if he is underweight, but don't go overboard.

Regarding the shape of your cat....your cat should have a waist, and should NOT have a pot belly. Many, many cats are overweight because people think they should not be slim...but that's what a cat should look like! I'm looking for the link to assessing your cat's weight....when I find it, I will link it.
 
The link to Dr. Lisa's site has a formula in the section on obesity for calculating the number of calories per day your cat needs based on what you think is a good weight for your cat. This chart will also give you a comparison for what your cat's body condition should look like from thin to overweight.

A correction to what some folks posted. Wheat gluten, or any gluten for that matter, is not a carb. It's a protein. The problem with gluten, though, is that many cats are allergic or sensitive to it so many of us don't feed it.

The corn starch that's in the pouches is a carb. I know that when I had to give Gabby baby food, I found that one of the brands I was using had corn starch and it raised her BG numbers. Any starch or flour as well as sugar (anything ending in -ose like dextrose) is a carb, as well.

I suspect there is a way to figure out the grams of carb in food if you prefer to use that than the percentage. I tend to think it's easier to know the percent though. You still need to know the proportion of carbs to the other nutrients in what you're feeding in order to now whether it's high or low carb. Basically, anything under 10% is considered LC. However, I'm fairly confident that most of us feed under 5%.
 
Thank you Sienne...I thought I had that link, but I can't find it now.

One other thing that I want to mention...

And I wasn't worried about him going hypo on me and not noticing. He won't get more than 2" from me except when he eats or potties...lol He demands to be on my lap all the time...lol
Click to expand...

The point of home testing is to AVOID hypo by catching low numbers and intervening before your cat drops low enough to experience hypo symptoms. Cats can go from acting fine to a full blown hypoglycemic episode very quickly. You don't want to use behavior to judge how low your cat it....that can be fatal. When we say monitor closely, we mean TEST....not watch behavior.
 
I was shooting at 2am & pm. However that isn't going to work out for me until my life settles down again. Just the day before Pepper was DX, I bought a house trailer and am in the process of moving now too. And Wed. night I also found out my mom had a stroke and I may have to go to Ohio if she is real bad (or worse). I will be finding out more about her this afternoon and may have to go there tonight. (7 hr drive from here)

I can't drive due to the medications I'm on so I am totally dependent on my daughter's schedule to do things. She is a day person, I am a night person. So, yesterday I slid the shoot time to 4am & 4pm. This time will work around my daughter's schedule much better. She and her boys will be doing most of the packing and moving since I also can not lift much. So for at least the next month or so, I will have to be a "day" person...rofl

Wow...you guys do keep good eyes on new people to know I was shooting a different schedule that fast.
 
I'm so sorry about your mom, Deb. I hope it was mild stroke and she's improving...sending prayers for her! My DH had a stroke 2 years ago, he recovered pretty well, but it took time. If you have to go, will you take Pepper with you?

I just noticed the time of the posts, and you had mentioned the schedule previously. Lantus requires a pretty strict schedule, so I watch for things like that...newbies often don't realize that shooting early can act like a dose increase, so it's important to pay attention to schedule. So I'm assuming that you shot late? Can you please add that to the comments on the SS, where you changed the schedule?

The other thing you might want to add to the SS is the 2.0u dose that you were shooting before you dropped to 1.0u...just put the dose in the AM spot on the first day, and add a comment that you were shooting 2.0u for X days before that. It helps to let people know that Pepper didn't start on insulin that day.
 
Ok, so here's the scoop on moving a shot time.

Lantus isn't like other insulin where you have much more flexibility because the insulin is not as long acting as Lantus. With Lantus, an early shot acts like a dose increase and a late shot acts like a dose decrease. You can move a shot by either 15 min. per shot time or 30 min. once a day. The only way to safely move a shot by an hour or more is to have skipped the previous shot.

The Lantus "shed" creates overlap between doses. Shooting more than 30 min. early causes a great deal of overlap between the doses which is why it acts like a dose increase.

Sometimes, this is a hard concept to wrap your head around. The bottom line is to be careful when moving shot times. Lantus is not very forgiving in this.
 
About his belly, his sunken belly is WAY too pronounced right now. You can see the ending of his ribs. I shouldn't have said "beer belly I guess...it was more loose skin than belly. He loves to lay on his back with his belly up and as I walk past him I would scratch his belly and say "give me that beer belly" and he would wrap around my arm and give me 3 quick "love nips". Its a routine we haven't done in months and I hadn't realized we hadn't until he got sick. However, he did give me one last night as we were snuggling before bedtime. I can already tell he's feeling much better than last week!

About a year ago, I had him and his brother Midnight (GA for 2 months) in for their yearly visit to the vet and he said he was just right at 12 lbs for his frame, he is large framed. My Midnight was small framed and 9 lbs, also just right for his frame according to the vet. So I know he needs more weight.
 
I did read that early shoots are a NO NO and the vet did tell me absolutely DON"T shoot even 15 mins early. He did say I could shoot late if I had to, so I knew I could move the time later if I needed to.

I added all that stuff to Pepper's SS.
 
Good, thank you! It is best to move a little at a time, even if you are shooting later, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Just be aware that shooting that late may make the numbers wonky, so it may be harder to assess dose until the shed adjusts.

We open a new condo (thread) each day, so can you open a new condo with your AMPS and any other tests? Please link this condo to the new one.
 
After looking at the photo chart Sienne sent me Pepper is even leaner than the first pic so he is very under weight by that scale.
 
What I meant was when you start a new condo, you should link this condo to your new one....we link our condos together so others can easily go back and see what happened before. In order to make the link clickable, you need to use the URL button above the text box. This is what it should look like to make it work: [url=insert url you copied here]Yesterday[/url]. I used Yesterday, you can name the link whatever you want. You need to add the equal sign before the url you copied.

If you have trouble, ask for help....I am not the most tech saavy person here!
 
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