6/6 Darcy crazy numbers

Suzanne & Darcy

Suzanne & Darcy

Member Since 2020
I am finally posting. I really don't know what to say. I can't find my last condo to attach here. We are struggling along. His numbers are too crazy and I can't seem to keep him on an even keel -- probably my fault, but I won't let him go too high... then he will go high despite everything I am doing to keep him down (using the R). I think he is not being helped by the fact that I believe he has an infection and the vet will not give me the antibiotics that I requested. His white count has been trending upward for a while now -- although still considered within the reference range -- it was over 15 last week, and his absolute neutrophils were high at 12.08 (outside of the reference range.) All of the other components of the white count were normal -- only the neutrophils were high. I mean, this tells me that he has an infection. I asked for antibiotics. Given his history of infections being treated with antibiotics and his white count coming down... and then going back up again in another month or so... I thought it was prudent to go ahead and start him on some. The vet wants to wait until his WBC is out of range (it's close now). So I guess I will have to take him back again next week.

The kidney values from last Wednesday were bad. All bad. I really don't even want to go into it. He remains a sweet, happy, purring boy despite all of this. I've been round and round with the vet about using Benazepril on him. I stopped giving it to him and his numbers definitely got worse. I have done nothing but read, read, read on this subject. There is a lot of data out there to support that cats with CKD on Benazepril live longer. There is a lot of evidence that Benazepril slows progression of CKD and prevents kidney damage. She is right about that. There is stuff out there as well that explains that this is due to the pressure in the glomeruli being lowered (so that's good) but this same lowered pressure in the glomeruli also reduces GFR (basically, the filtration rate of the kidneys) and can therefore raise BUN and Creatinine (so that's bad.) I have also just read about a study where the use of Lactulose reduces creatinine, urea and uric acid in humans and is considered beneficial. I feel like I am experimenting on my cat. This is a very high stakes game, however. I have decided to trust my vet and have restarted the Benazepril for now and we will see what affect this will have on his numbers. I'm reading papers, while she has read the papers and also has years of clinical experience. I'm counting on her experience to be correct. A lot of the time, it is a balancing act and you are walking a tightrope with medications. Medications for one condition may not be beneficial for the other condition. I know that a lot of you who have or have had cats with multiple health conditions probably can appreciate this. Sorry for all the technical junk in this post.

I had expressed concerns and had questions about this (Benazepril) before. I wrote them down and handed them in when I took Darcy in for the enema a short while back. The vet who was caring for Darcy that day (not my regular vet but the other one in the practice) basically dismissed my concerns with, "Benazepril is good for the kidneys; don't worry about it" (even though I told him that I knew it could reduce GFR and therefor increase azotemia.) I stopped giving him the Benazepril at that point since I couldn't get a serious or detailed answer to my well-researched questions.

So I am just experimenting on my cat. I feel like I have been experimenting on him all along (and had little choice.) I mean, I gave him the Cabergoline and look what happened to his kidneys. I have no way of knowing if acro just destroyed his kidneys in a few months (since his USG was good in January of this year) or if the Cabergoline has scarred his kidneys. I have read that, in humans, organ scarring can occur (heart, kidneys and other internal organs). I know that others have cats on Cabergoline and this has not happened to them, but I have no way of knowing. I'll stop now. I need to post something in the Acro forum regarding the organ scarring issue. Sorry this is so long. A few people may have wanted to know what's been going on with us. If I have any good news to report at any point in the future, I'll be sure and share it! Right now, it's all either stable (his demeanor) or bad (his kidney values & white count) news.
 
Suzanne. :bighug::bighug::bighug: Reading your post broke my heart. You seem defeated. I've been really surprised how unaware vets seem to be about a lot of things, but especially the effect of medications on an older cat's kidneys. You're doing all that you can, and as long as Darcy is checking off a few of the Ps and stays snuggly and lovey, that's half the battle. Hang in there, sister. Our special needs kitties need us to be strong for them. ❤️
 
Last condo is here: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/6-2-darcy-amps-363-3-311-5-5-313.248110/
If you go to your profile (click on name under avatar, click on Profile, select the Posting tabs you can find it there.

Neko was on benazapril for quite a while. It definitely helps slow any proteinuria. She had to go off of it before her second SRT. I did bloodwork both before being off of it, and during, and then when back on it. It didn't change the Crea/BUN that much.

I have seen some untreated acros get sudden kidney disease. I have not yet seen a cat on cabergoline do so. Darcy, if that caused it, would be the first. Have you thought about taking him to an internal medicine specialist. I found Neko's IM vet really in balancing multiple conditions/meds. They are experts on that. They have more education than Dr. Google.

I wouldn't increase his dose until six cycles past those last low greens and then only if no more green. He could still be bouncing.
 
PerfumedCatMom said:
Suzanne. :bighug::bighug::bighug: Reading your post broke my heart. You seem defeated. I've been really surprised how unaware vets seem to be about a lot of things, but especially the effect of medications on an older cat's kidneys. You're doing all that you can, and as long as Darcy is checking off a few of the Ps and stays snuggly and lovey, that's half the battle. Hang in there, sister. Our special needs kitties need us to be strong for them. ❤️
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Thanks, Katherine, for even reading my long post. I know you understand. I'm not giving up yet. I just feel like I've received a huge gut punch and frequently feel lost in the woods.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Last condo is here: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/6-2-darcy-amps-363-3-311-5-5-313.248110/
If you go to your profile (click on name under avatar, click on Profile, select the Posting tabs you can find it there.

Neko was on benazapril for quite a while. It definitely helps slow any proteinuria. She had to go off of it before her second SRT. I did bloodwork both before being off of it, and during, and then when back on it. It didn't change the Crea/BUN that much.

I have seen some untreated acros get sudden kidney disease. I have not yet seen a cat on cabergoline do so. Darcy, if that caused it, would be the first. Have you thought about taking him to an internal medicine specialist. I found Neko's IM vet really in balancing multiple conditions/meds. They are experts on that. They have more education than Dr. Google.

I wouldn't increase his dose until six cycles past those last low greens and then only if no more green. He could still be bouncing.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much, Wendy. I did increase him tonight. Too soon, perhaps. I can drop him back to 6.5 maybe. I wasn't sure tonight what to do. I sat around for a while and his shot was late (only about 15 minutes) while I tried to decide. I haven't even done a good job of keeping track of his R doses. Like last night, I'm pretty sure I gave him R and then forgot to put it in his ss... I think it was 1 unit. I have just been living day to day, hour to hour on the BGs and I get so tired I forget to enter things in the SS or write a note in my phone about what I have done. I don't even know where this morning's blue AMPS came from. It was unexpected.

Your perspective on the Benazepril is valuable. I just need to make sure that his BP doesn't drop too low (which also damages the kidneys). My vet said she hasn't seen Benazepril drop cats to low... it would be unusual. His BP is not high. They did get one low reading on him last week, but out of three it was the only one -- and they average them out of three readings. Thank you very much for checking in and reading! I appreciate it.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I just need to make sure that his BP doesn't drop too low (which also damages the kidneys). My vet said she hasn't seen Benazepril drop cats to low... it would be unusual. His BP is not high. They did get one low reading on him last week, but out of three it was the only one -- and they average them out of three readings.
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I had a CRF kitty who was on Benazepril for about 2 years. She did indeed near the end have low BP, and anemia, which may have occurred as a result of long term use, although I'm not sure whether it was the only reason for those issues. For us, it had a short term increase to creatinine, but those levels stabilized.
 
Christie & Maverick said:
I had a CRF kitty who was on Benazepril for about 2 years. She did indeed near the end have low BP, and anemia, which may have occurred as a result of long term use, although I'm not sure whether it was the only reason for those issues. For us, it had a short term increase to creatinine, but those levels stabilized.
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Thanks, Christie. It is true that the creatinine increase is usually short term. THANK YOU for stopping by and reading and letting me know your experience. I do appreciate it. Real world experiences help me to process a lot.
 
Hang in there, Suzanne, we are all rooting for you and our favorite Mr Darcy. I don't have any advice or experience to give but definitely give a second vote for an IM vet if you're not already seeing one. Minnie's almost exclusively seeing the IM vet - only downside is she is only there 3 days a week (though she does check emails and has called me on her off days).

Glad to hear that he is happy and purring - from your s/s looks like he is not eating as much as you want, but his BG really doesn't look too bad. He is only on 7u of Levemir down from 44u before! It honestly sounds like you are in a worse state than he is at the moment, you sound exhausted and overwhelmed and suffering from the downside of having too much information available on the internet. Overload.

And you're not alone feeling like your cat is being experimented on. I am trying to be calm that they forgot to check the urine culture from Tuesday, clearly she only went in after I called and emailed on Saturday because of Minnie's behavior jumping in/out litter box (2nd time in a week). The vet almost sound surprised to report it came back positive, and now we have to wait another few days for the results from sending it out to identify the exact bacteria. It's a difficult tightrope knowing how much you need to question the vet.

Enjoy the cuddles and purrs and I hope you can find some time for yourself tomorrow. You sound like a coiled spring. As I said, hang in there. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Thanks, Liz. I sure hope Minnie can feel better soon and defeat the UTI. How will they know if the hyperaldosteronism is under control?
As for all my reading, it takes a lot of time, but I am mostly reading veterinary journal published studies or proceedings from the WSAVA. I’m going to try to give it a rest for a few days!
 
Love and hugs to you and MR. Darcy. It is amazing the love they give even when they feel like poop. It makes it so hard for us to really know how they feel because they are so good at hiding it when they feel bad.
We humans sometimes have to be the guinea pig too. It is so great that we have so much information available to us now. We really do have to be our own (and our loved one's) advocates with doctors and vets! Even the top notch facilities and professionals overlook details and listed meds in my experience...imperfect we humans are.
Hang in there and keep reading and advocating like the great mama you are!
Hope you can get some rest and peace:bighug:
 
Kathy and tiger said:
Love and hugs to you and MR. Darcy. It is amazing the love they give even when they feel like poop. It makes it so hard for us to really know how they feel because they are so good at hiding it when they feel bad.
We humans sometimes have to be the guinea pig too. It is so great that we have so much information available to us now. We really do have to be our own (and our loved one's) advocates with doctors and vets! Even the top notch facilities and professionals overlook details and listed meds in my experience...imperfect we humans are.
Hang in there and keep reading and advocating like the great mama you are!
Hope you can get some rest and peace:bighug:
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Thank you, Kathy!!
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I am finally posting. I really don't know what to say. I can't find my last condo to attach here. We are struggling along. His numbers are too crazy and I can't seem to keep him on an even keel -- probably my fault, but I won't let him go too high... then he will go high despite everything I am doing to keep him down (using the R). I think he is not being helped by the fact that I believe he has an infection and the vet will not give me the antibiotics that I requested. His white count has been trending upward for a while now -- although still considered within the reference range -- it was over 15 last week, and his absolute neutrophils were high at 12.08 (outside of the reference range.) All of the other components of the white count were normal -- only the neutrophils were high. I mean, this tells me that he has an infection. I asked for antibiotics. Given his history of infections being treated with antibiotics and his white count coming down... and then going back up again in another month or so... I thought it was prudent to go ahead and start him on some. The vet wants to wait until his WBC is out of range (it's close now). So I guess I will have to take him back again next week.

The kidney values from last Wednesday were bad. All bad. I really don't even want to go into it. He remains a sweet, happy, purring boy despite all of this. I've been round and round with the vet about using Benazepril on him. I stopped giving it to him and his numbers definitely got worse. I have done nothing but read, read, read on this subject. There is a lot of data out there to support that cats with CKD on Benazepril live longer. There is a lot of evidence that Benazepril slows progression of CKD and prevents kidney damage. She is right about that. There is stuff out there as well that explains that this is due to the pressure in the glomeruli being lowered (so that's good) but this same lowered pressure in the glomeruli also reduces GFR (basically, the filtration rate of the kidneys) and can therefore raise BUN and Creatinine (so that's bad.) I have also just read about a study where the use of Lactulose reduces creatinine, urea and uric acid in humans and is considered beneficial. I feel like I am experimenting on my cat. This is a very high stakes game, however. I have decided to trust my vet and have restarted the Benazepril for now and we will see what affect this will have on his numbers. I'm reading papers, while she has read the papers and also has years of clinical experience. I'm counting on her experience to be correct. A lot of the time, it is a balancing act and you are walking a tightrope with medications. Medications for one condition may not be beneficial for the other condition. I know that a lot of you who have or have had cats with multiple health conditions probably can appreciate this. Sorry for all the technical junk in this post.

I had expressed concerns and had questions about this (Benazepril) before. I wrote them down and handed them in when I took Darcy in for the enema a short while back. The vet who was caring for Darcy that day (not my regular vet but the other one in the practice) basically dismissed my concerns with, "Benazepril is good for the kidneys; don't worry about it" (even though I told him that I knew it could reduce GFR and therefor increase azotemia.) I stopped giving him the Benazepril at that point since I couldn't get a serious or detailed answer to my well-researched questions.

So I am just experimenting on my cat. I feel like I have been experimenting on him all along (and had little choice.) I mean, I gave him the Cabergoline and look what happened to his kidneys. I have no way of knowing if acro just destroyed his kidneys in a few months (since his USG was good in January of this year) or if the Cabergoline has scarred his kidneys. I have read that, in humans, organ scarring can occur (heart, kidneys and other internal organs). I know that others have cats on Cabergoline and this has not happened to them, but I have no way of knowing. I'll stop now. I need to post something in the Acro forum regarding the organ scarring issue. Sorry this is so long. A few people may have wanted to know what's been going on with us. If I have any good news to report at any point in the future, I'll be sure and share it! Right now, it's all either stable (his demeanor) or bad (his kidney values & white count) news.
Click to expand...
So sorry Suzanne you sound exhausted, frustrated, sad. I think you need to sleep on it and have a fresh mind in the am. You sound like you brain is flooded with too much information and what you feel are failed solutions. I know you are forever doing a balancing act to keep Darcy in healthy ranges for his BG but have added all of his labs to the mix. I hope you can rest you mind for tonight and see what things look like tomorrow. Sending loving prayers and hopes for Darcy’s good health. Hugs from Dolly and me :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
So sorry to see all you are going thru Suzanne :bighug::bighug: I have to second @Liz & Minnie, Darcy's numbers are not that bad, Darcy is purring and cuddly and that is the most important. Most of us on this forum pass thru the same worries, some periods are better some are worse but we are doing the best we can for our kitties. Darcy is crazy lucky to have you "experiment", research and analyze how to keep his health in best condition possible :bighug:
 
Our Dolly Girl said:
So sorry Suzanne you sound exhausted, frustrated, sad. I think you need to sleep on it and have a fresh mind in the am. You sound like you brain is flooded with too much information and what you feel are failed solutions. I know you are forever doing a balancing act to keep Darcy in healthy ranges for his BG but have added all of his labs to the mix. I hope you can rest you mind for tonight and see what things look like tomorrow. Sending loving prayers and hopes for Darcy’s good health. Hugs from Dolly and me :bighug::bighug::bighug:
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Thank you, Adrienne! Hugs right back to you and Dolly.
 
Marina & Chico said:
So sorry to see all you are going thru Suzanne :bighug::bighug: I have to second @Liz & Minnie, Darcy's numbers are not that bad, Darcy is purring and cuddly and that is the most important. Most of us on this forum pass thru the same worries, some periods are better some are worse but we are doing the best we can for our kitties. Darcy is crazy lucky to have you "experiment", research and analyze how to keep his health in best condition possible :bighug:
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Thank you, Marina. I just need to keep him under the kidney threshold, and it’s not consistently happening and without the extra R insulin, it wouldn’t be happening at all it looks like. Although at least I can control his blood glucose levels to some extent - I have some control. With regard to his kidneys I have little control, and it feels so hopeless. Everything that I do has the potential of hurting him and not helping him. I guess that is a very negative outlook. I was so hopeful when we started Cabergoline. Then everything just went to hell.
 
A few people may have wanted to know what's been going on with us.

We all want to know what you and Darcy are going through, Suzanne. I'm sorry I always see your post the next day. I'm also sorry that you are so frustrated with what is happening. You are doing the best you can in a very tough and confusing situation. I wish I could offer some constructive advice but I haven't had all the issues you and so many others have had. I can only offer my support and my ear and my prayers for Darcy, you and that your vet/s know the best thing for your boy.
 
Summer and Susie said:
A few people may have wanted to know what's been going on with us.

We all want to know what you and Darcy are going through, Suzanne. I'm sorry I always see your post the next day. I'm also sorry that you are so frustrated with what is happening. You are doing the best you can in a very tough and confusing situation. I wish I could offer some constructive advice but I haven't had all the issues you and so many others have had. I can only offer my support and my ear and my prayers for Darcy, you and that your vet/s know the best thing for your boy.
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Thank you, Summer! :bighug::bighug:
 
Oh, Suzanne...I was so sorry to see your post. I had real hopes that Darcy's kidney situation would have improved. The kidneys are so vulnerable, it seems. I know I constantly worry about Fred's. I hear you when you say you feel you are experimenting on Darcy, but it is, of course, all coming from the right place and all the love you have for him. You are doing the best you can, and then some! Always remember you are doing the best you can!!

As the others have said, I offer my support and empathy, and know, KNOW Mr. Darcy realizes all you do for him....and loves you unconditionally as you love him.
 
We most definitely want to know what's going on! We worry :bighug:

I wish I could give you the biggest hug in the world :bighug:
I'll send you a huge virtual hug, and lots of positive thoughts to Mr Darcy :bighug:
 
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