6/25 Pumbaa AMPS/445

[Pumbaa]

At least his AMPS is red, not black.

I'd like to just copy and paste Friday's numbers into the SS for the rest of the week...as if that would make it a reality. Hah!

To me, it's strange that Pumbaa took a major dive like that, exactly one week apart. At least this week I didn't do a BCS and also didn't reduce his dose. I want him to level off on the 2.0U and see what he does when he stops bouncing and settles in to the dose.

Yesterday, right before his PMPS, the little stinker got up on the counter and batted his test strips behind the chest freezer. I think he thought if he hid the test strips I wouldn't be able to test him. Hahahahaha!

Suze

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

I wonder what Pumbaa is bouncing off of overnight? Hard to imagine there was anything lower than a blue if even that.

Maybe he's dreaming of thin and crispy pizza with anchovies? :mrgreen:

Wonder what Chip will do today? Not much of a bounce yet off that green surf.

Maybe he's getting closer to graduating Liver Training Boot Camp.

 

[Pumbaa]

That was a beautiful run of green yesterday for Chip! So glad he hasn't bounced too high from it!

As for Pumbaa, I'm doubting that he even dropped down to blue Saturday or Sunday night. I'm patiently waiting the 72 hours for his bounce(s) to clear. *sigh*

Suze

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

Well it might be a delayed reaction with Chip.

Maybe the bounce doesn't begin until 72 hours? Just to keep it interesting. :roll:

At least Pumbaa rolled off to more reasonable levels. :smile:

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes, a sea of yellow today so far. But I wish he only would have gone up to the pinks for his bounces, like Chip. I can tell he just doesn't feel good when his numbers are so high from a bounce.

I've been studying Pumbaa's SS, trying to predict when his next dive is going to occur...and I just can't tell. *sigh*

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

...I've been studying Pumbaa's SS, trying to predict when his next dive is going to occur...and I just can't tell. *sigh*

It's like that TR autobot programmed with random bullet points.

<> Signs point to yes <> Without a doubt <> As I see it, yes <> You may rely on it <> Lantus Lantus Lantus <> :twisted:

 

[Pumbaa]

Chippendale's:

Is it true that, during your school years, you spent so much time in the principle's office that they just permanently put it on your schedule? *LOL*

 

[MommaOfMuse]

Folks I'm going to step in here...There are as many ways to manage a diabetic cat as there are diabetic cats..what works well for one isn't always going to work well for the next one. BUT....there is absolutely no reason to bash anyone's way of managing their cat. The Lantus TR protocol has worked well and continues to work well for SOME cats...PZI/ProZinc has been a miracle insulin for SOME cats, Levemir has also been a miracle insulin for SOME cats. And I have even seen cats come here on NPH and go OTJ..it is all about the cats and their particular caregivers...period end of statement.

Dale if you don't like the TR protocol or Lantus...then switch insulins, and don't follow the protocol. It is your choice. You are your cat's caregiver. The absolute most any of us that have been here any length of time and have treated our own cats can do is give you suggestions based on what has and hasn't worked for our own cats.

Personally I have adopted 3 diabetics, Maxwell was on Lantus for 2 weeks in total before going OTJ, for him all it took was a stable home and a proper diet with a slight amount of insulin support...Musette was started on Lantus but didn't do well on it so I made the choice to switch her to Levemir and had that not worked I would have changed insulin again until I found something that did. Now I have Autumn and she is doing wonderfully on Lantus...but again if she hadn't I would have discussed with my vet switching her insulin until I found something that she did get along well with.

I, personally, don't have the time or the energy to follow the TR protocol. I have 14 cats, a large dog, a husband and a house to care for as well as now working on starting my own business..I don't have the time to test like I use to. Plus I am dealing with cats that are not newly dxed, that need more to feel safe, happy and secure as well as loved than just having their blood sugar regulated...I also have to build with them something you already have with Chip...Love and Trust. I just don't see that happening if every 3 hours I am stabbing them in the ear, they are already confused enough about why they got dumped by their previous families, and are learning to live with new humans and a whole sh*tload of other animals. So I don't want everytime I touch them to be to draw blood from their ear that is why I personally follow a more relaxed approach. But I'm not about to go around bashing everyone that uses Lantus according the Tilly protocol, if it works for them GREAT.

Nor am I going to b*tch about those that use any other insulin or protocol as long as they are treating their cats, as long as they aren't dumping them off at a vet's clinic or shelter to be destroyed. As long as they are doing the best they can for their particular cat in whatever way they see fit...at least they are trying. And as long as their cat isn't suffering for it.

This board isn't about what insulin or protocol is the best! Because there is no BEST there is only what works for that particular cat and caregiver. The best insulin and the best protocol is the one that works for your cat and your lifestyle. If it gets you a healthy and happy cat and doesn't drive you stir crazy in the process then that is the best thing out there.

I for one am tired of the bashing, if you want to try Levemir for Chip then try it. If you want to try Prozinc or BCP PZI then by all means go that route as well..Chip ic your cat, he is not mine or anyone else's here. I can give you suggestions but you hold the syringes, you control the meter and when you do and don't test. But if you want suggestions and input from those of us that have gone before you, then don't bite the hand that feeds you.

While I don't follow the TR protocol there is a wealth of information over there in the stickies on how Lantus works and how to determine doses based on the numbers you see. You have internet access...Go research feline diabetes for yourself if you don't think you are getting the best advice here. Learn for yourself how to treat your cat, most of us here did. We asked questions,we did the leg work to research this disease, we looked at our data, and we learned to make decisions based on suggestions and data collected from many sources.

I can't tell you anymore how Chip is going to react to Levemir over Lantus than you can, because he hasn't been tried on it...I don't how Autumn would react to Lev over Lantus either because again she hasn't tried on it, but I do know that Lantus is working for her at this very moment. Would she be better on Lev or PZI? Don't know, don't care because Lantus is working fine for her.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

...I, personally, don't have the time or the energy to follow the TR protocol. I have 14 cats, a large dog, a husband and a house to care for as well as now working on starting my own business..I don't have the time to test like I use to. Plus I am dealing with cats that are not newly dxed, that need more to feel safe, happy and secure as well as loved than just having their blood sugar regulated...I also have to build with them something you already have with Chip...Love and Trust. I just don't see that happening if every 3 hours I am stabbing them in the ear, they are already confused enough about why they got dumped by their previous families, and are learning to live with new humans and a whole sh*tload of other animals. So I don't want everytime I touch them to be to draw blood from their ear that is why I personally follow a more relaxed approach.

You know I was wondering why Chip didn't purr much anymore. Part of it is because he just doesn't feel great all the time. But then I realized it's also because we never just hang out anymore. It's always rounding him up for a poke or a jab, or trying to make him eat when he's not hungry.

If I just stop and pet him for a few minutes with no other purpose he purrs readily. So we do have to look at the big picture here. Of course if I do switch him to Levemir, don't you know that will be right when the Lantus starts working. But I think the shots are stinging him the way he jumps now, that is something new. He runs and hides when I bring out the Lantus pen. So if the Levemir is better in that regard it's reason enough to switch.

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

...This board isn't about what insulin or protocol is the best! Because there is no BEST there is only what works for that particular cat and caregiver. The best insulin and the best protocol is the one that works for your cat and your lifestyle. If it gets you a healthy and happy cat and doesn't drive you stir crazy in the process then that is the best thing out there.

I wish that was true. But for whatever reason there is a bias here towards Lantus. Kind of like a turf war or something. But the problem is for those converting their vet, and it makes no difference to the vet, then having a more balanced picture is useful. That is not what saw here in doing what I thought was careful research.

If I do switch (and I now have the second script) we shall see how it all plays out. :smile:

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

Chippendale's:

Is it true that, during your school years, you spent so much time in the principle's office that they just permanently put it on your schedule? *LOL*

We called that independent study hall.

In our school it was the vice principal in charge of disciplinary matters. But I had a get out of jail free card since the vp was close family friend. So yes I was up there a lot just hanging out but I was never suspended once. ;-)

Suze I hope you enjoy the excursions that your *offroad* relaxed condos seem to take.

 

[Pumbaa]

Suze I hope you enjoy the excursions that your *offroad* relaxed condos seem to take.

Laughter is the best medicine for relieving stress, and heaven knows that trying to regulate diabetic cats can be stressful. So, yes, I do enjoy, and laugh at, the off road adventures on these threads.

 

[Pumbaa]

Mel, very wise words.

I hope people realize that I am not "dissing" Lantus when I ask questions about it or ask questions about Levemir...questions that my Pumbaa relies on me to ask, for his well-being, since he is totally dependent on me to do the research and make the best decisions for him. I want what is best for Pumbaa, and if that means Caninsulin/ProZinc/Humilin/Levemir/Lantus, so be it. I don't care what the brand name is, or what protocol we follow, as long as it's the best thing for my little guy!

The TR Protocol with Lantus didn't work out for me and Pumbaa, not because I couldn't test that frequently, but simply because both he and I were too stressed by the rapid dose changes. Now, I give him plenty of time to settle into a dose...even if some protocol states that a drop below 50 earns a dose reduction. As someone (I wish I remembered who) stated recently, it's not always good to look forward to an immediate dose reduction like that, if you are just going to have to raise the dose again in a few days. I so learned that to be true in the last 2 weeks!

Also, I'm not happy with Pumbaa's dives and bounces, and initially, until I read further input from others, I thought that Levimir was guaranteed to smooth these bounces out. You learn by asking questions and hearing the experiences of others, even though ECID. The best thing I heard about bounces is that "they bounce until they don't". I still crack up every time I think of/type, that statement!

At the same time, I do have to agree with Dale about there being a bias towards Lantus, overall, on these boards. When I have questioned Lantus being the right insulin for Pumbaa, I feel that I have been taken to task, and had my comments distorted into being a negative about Lantus. I don't understand that. I would never not recommend Lantus to anyone, as it is an ideal insulin for many cats. Does that mean it's the ideal insulin for Pumbaa? I still don't know, and won't unless we switch to something else and try that out. But I hope that I, personally, would never accuse someone of being negative just for asking questions. I ask questions for a living. I question everything, and research everything, looking for accurate data, down to something as relatively simple as replacing my microwave oven.

As for the Lantus TR protocol, I do think that some people suggest dose increases without having looked at the entire history/SS, and don't take into consideration when a bounce hasn't cleared, or other pertinent information. I think that some people get that "3 days/6 cycles/make a change" in their heads and have a difficult time looking at the big picture of the cat in question, instead of just following a time schedule that's in a document. That's why I came back to the relaxed Lantus, and am much happier here, as is Pumbaa.

As you have drilled into my head, thankfully, this is a dance, and Pumbaa is leading. I have to follow his lead, while I am also the DJ, controlling his dance by the music (aka insulin) I have researched and chosen to play. It's very complex, as you know.

Suze

 

[Pumbaa]

You know I was wondering why Chip didn't purr much anymore. Part of it is because he just doesn't feel great all the time. But then I realized it's also because we never just hang out anymore. It's always rounding him up for a poke or a jab, or trying to make him eat when he's not hungry.

I feel for you and Chip!

Even though I have tried to keep up with "quality time" with all three of my animals, it's hard due to the extra time Pumbaa needs for testing and shooting and collecting urine, as well as encouragement to eat. This has been hard on our entire household.

Every time I get up to get more coffee/water or to pee, I try to make contact with my animules. Whether it's just checking where they are and telling them that I love them, or reaching up/down to give them some petting/belly rubs, they need this contact as much as I do, to separate it from the extra "attention" Pumbaa gets when I need to prick his ears.

Pumbaa purrs more when his numbers are lower. He also is more resistant to his injections and ear pokes when his numbers are lower, so that's a problem. But every time I pick him up to test him, he gets major petting and loving, to try and make that experience a positive one for him.

It's difficult, that is for sure! Pumbaa's diabetes has turned our lives around.

Suze

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Suze:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never regarded your questions as anything but an effort on your part to gather information so you could make an informed decision. Your responses to that information have always been gracious and even-handed.

If there is a bias toward Lantus it is because there is solid research that supports its use in cats and the results of that research indicate a good outcome. As a result, vets are prescribing Lantus more. I've seen a change in the number of people who have been initially prescribed Lantus since I joined FDMB. I'm sure members who have been here longer will say the same thing. This is likely due to some insulins, such as Vetsulin and PZI, no longer being available. Between fewer options and an insulin that provides an enhanced chance of remission along with a published protocol that a caregiver can follow, more vets are prescribing Lantus. I suspect as Lev gains a stronger foothold for human diabetics, more vets will start prescribing Lev. What you see as a "bias," I see as simply a matter of numbers. There are a greater number of people using Lantus so it is discussed more.

With respect to dosing, there will always be people who will make recommendations without looking at a spreadsheet. Regardless of whether a suggestion is made by someone with experience, you are the person that knows your cat the best and you are holding the syringe. I may suggest an increase once a bounce clears but that may not take variables only you are aware of into account. In most cases, we do ask that people not increase a dose during a bounce. Not everyone is equally good at seeing bounces. On the other hand, this is why recommendations are made in a public forum. What someone misses, someone else sees.

 

[Pumbaa]

Thank you, Sienne!

You're another voice of reason that I admire and look forward to hearing from!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never regarded your questions as anything but an effort on your part to gather information so you could make an informed decision. Your responses to that information have always been gracious and even-handed.

I can't thank you enough for the above, because I tend to be outspoken and honest, and frequently step on toes, even when that was not my intent.

While I do understand the numbers backing up the use of Lantus for our cats on these boards, I don't understand the feeling of betrayal if some of us question if Lantus it the correct insulin for our particular cat, or not. No matter what insulin I am using for Pumbaa, I don't care what insulin anyone else is using if they are achieving great results. I feel that I can learn from everyone, and make better decisions for Pumbaa based on all that I read. I just wish that others were as open minded.

With respect to dosing, there will always be people who will make recommendations without looking at a spreadsheet. Regardless of whether a suggestion is made by someone with experience, you are the person that knows your cat the best and you are holding the syringe.

Unfortunately, some of us are too new to this to make dosing decisions without the guidance of others, and that is where I see the problem, if the others are not looking at the big picture before suggesting a dose increase. As I stated above, in hindsight, I made dose increases based on the suggestions of people who I later found out were not looking at the big picture, as I was. That is exactly why I went back to the relaxed boards. If people are making dosing recommendations to newbies, they need to realize/notate that this is what they would do with a diabetic cat who was not new to this protocol, and that they did NOT look at the spreadsheet overall, to determine previous responses. That is the responsibility of anyone suggesting a dose increase due to the TR protocol, in my mind, anyway.

What someone misses, someone else sees.

In a perfect world. Not always the case here. That's not a negative, it's just a fact.

(((HUGS))) to you, Sienne, for your input!

Suze

 

[Dale 'n' Chip]

...If there is a bias toward Lantus it is because there is solid research that supports its use in cats and the results of that research indicate a good outcome. As a result, vets are prescribing Lantus more. I've seen a change in the number of people who have been initially prescribed Lantus since I joined FDMB. I'm sure members who have been here longer will say the same thing. This is likely due to some insulins, such as Vetsulin and PZI, no longer being available. Between fewer options and an insulin that provides an enhanced chance of remission along with a published protocol that a caregiver can follow, more vets are prescribing Lantus. I suspect as Lev gains a stronger foothold for human diabetics, more vets will start prescribing Lev. What you see as a "bias," I see as simply a matter of numbers. There are a greater number of people using Lantus so it is discussed more.

Sienne I'm glad you showed up here. When I'm I showered with accolades for all the trashing and bashing it's overblown since 98% of may handful of posts have been in 2 or three of my own threads or mostly in condos of a few close friends.

If I'm so famous for dissing TR that does not include you (I think I pointed that out to someone privately) since you were the only one in TR to even took a look at Chip's spreadsheet and venture a guess. And you looked more than once and I always appreciated that. And if you look now you pretty much pegged it.

I don't agree that the research shows any statistical distinction between the two L's and as well a lot more needs to be done before any of it means very much. But since you've studied so many spreadsheets and helped so many... why are so many who stay on Lantus long term switiching to Levemir? Is it possible they are both great but Levemir may have a slight edge?

And that's why many power users end up switching? You always have a balanced and even handed approach so what are your thoughts on that?

Are both L's really exactly equal? :?:

 

[MommaOfMuse]

As with everything in life, nothing is equal...everything has both its pluses and minuses..Do Lantus and Levemir work the same..well yes in that they are both depot insulins as opposed to NPH and ProZinc which are in and out insulins. Both the L's have a shed, both dosing is based off the nadir, both can cause bounces and dives in some cats. But they do have different bases. Which is why a lot of the High Dose cats are being switched to Levemir.

Is there a bias towards Lantus..well some, but mainly because both ProZinc and Levemir are fairly new on the market for use in cats. Right now most cats are on Lantus because it has the history behind it for the research to have been done, for a protocol to be set for it. And of course those of us that have used Lantus and had great results with our cats are going to think it is the best thing since sliced white bread.

Suze,

In all your posts that I have read you are not being negative, you are questioning what is best for your boy and I have always tried to answer you based on my experience with both insulins. Do I agree that sometimes it seems like a turf war ABSOLUTELY. That is why the Relaxed Lantus board exists in the first place. Treating a diabetic cat is overwhelming enough. Do I think that Tilly's protocol works well, sure, just not for me and my cats they are a slightly different case than most of the cats that show up here.

That is why if you go back through and read my posts on Health to newbies, I don't suggest one protocol over any other, nor if the cat hasn't been started on insulin suggest any particular insulin but tell them that the three best for use in felines are Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc. To if at all possible avoid NPH because of its action, not that it is a bad insulin but by the very nature of its action in a feline body it causes steep dives and rises as well as not having the duration that it does in humans do to the metabolism rate of a feline. But it was used and used well for years until science came up with something better. It just takes more testing and usually T.I.D. dosing.

There are some pretty basic key elements to treating a diabetic cat...Home Testing, Insulin (whatever flavor) and Diet. After that it is up to the caregiver to understand their cat and how their cat's insulin works. And if you aren't getting the help you think you need for dose changes here while you are learning there is always a second option...take your numbers and notes and go sit down with your vet.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

While I do understand the numbers backing up the use of Lantus for our cats on these boards, I don't understand the feeling of betrayal if some of us question if Lantus it the correct insulin for our particular cat, or not.

For me personally, "betrayal" is too strong of a word. There is very much a sense of community on the TR board. Just like when you have a close friend in your life, you hate to see that person move even if moving presents them with a much greater set of opportunities. If your cat does better on a different insulin, I suspect if people from TR know, they'd help you to celebrate the success.

All I can tell you with regard to how much consideration to give the advice you're getting is what I tell anyone who asks me: Look at the person who's dispensing information's spreadsheet. Is that what you want your cat's SS to look like? While it is hard for a new member, whether to listen to someone is your responsibility as a caregiver. There are a handful of people who start dispensing information before they understand FD. There are lots of people in TR who will flat out say they are uncomfortable giving any recommendation about dose no matter how long they've been around. There are those of us who do make an attempt to help others. However, I do not consider myself an "expert." Of those that I know on the TR board, none of us who are helping consider ourselves experts. We're not vets. We have taken on what can be a huge responsibility to help others with the realization that it is a trust and we MUST put the cat's safety first. It is also a dialogue. You live with your cat and the caregiver's insight is important.

Dale -- What I can tell you is that for me, when you bash TR I take it personally. It drives me away from posting on your threads because I get angry and don't want to post out of anger. It's just easier to stay away. As for Lantus vs. Lev, my comment was not entirely accurate. The protocol and the research more accurately supports the use of Lantus and/or Lev. I tend to think of the two insulins interchangeably. Lantus has been better publicized and, as a result, has seen an increase in use. My vet is much more comfortable with Lantus than Lev and she is at a feline only practice that works very hard at staying current.

People have all sorts of reasons for sticking with Lantus. Given my schedule, it would be hard for me to keep Gabby safe with an insulin that has a late nadir since I do have to work. That has been an overriding consideration. For others, it may be simply familiarity with one vs. the other insulin. Some people have battled with their vet to prescribe Lantus and don't want to engage in another battle to switch to Lev. I'm sure there are as many reasons for not switching as switching insulin as there are people who have given some thought to the matter. As Mel pointed out previously, it's what works for your cat. IMHO, what doesn't work for anyone's cat is to attempt to undermine what may be successful for someone else's cat.

 

[Pumbaa]

And of course those of us that have used Lantus and had great results with our cats are going to think it is the best thing since sliced white bread.

Yes, and that is just human nature. But it pays to remember that some people like wheat bread, and some like rye, and some don't like their bread pre-sliced.

That is why if you go back through and read my posts on Health to newbies, I don't suggest one protocol over any other, nor if the cat hasn't been started on insulin suggest any particular insulin but tell them that the three best for use in felines are Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc.

Mel, what I love about you is that you are very sharing of information, without showing any bias towards any one insulin or protocol. I think I got my "whatever works best for your particular cat" attitude from you, from the very beginning. And I thank you for that!

There are some pretty basic key elements to treating a diabetic cat...Home Testing, Insulin (whatever flavor) and Diet. After that it is up to the caregiver to understand their cat and how their cat's insulin works. And if you aren't getting the help you think you need for dose changes here while you are learning there is always a second option...take your numbers and notes and go sit down with your vet.

I have received some superb help here, figuring out dosing, trying to understand bounces and dives and how to deal with them, how food and activity affect the entire process, etc., by people who actually took the time to look at Pumbaa's SS and noticed some patterns that I hadn't seen. Since this information came from people in the trenches, dealing daily with their own diabetic cats, it's much more meaningful than sitting sitting down with a vet who doesn't treat many diabetic cats and doesn't have one of his/her own. I mean, what vet would say, "they bounce until they don't"? *LOL* But, like I said above, it seems that some people get stuck in that "3 days/6 cycles/make a change" rut, no matter what else is going on with the cat.

I think the most difficult part for newbies is the learning curve of understanding our particular cats and how the insulin works in our cats. Even though I now have 2-1/2 months of history with Pumbaa, and I look at his numbers and compare his numbers to what he was fed and how he was acting, I still can't predict what music he's going to dance to today. I do know that he feels better when his numbers are lower, and is more active and more of his old juvenile delinquent self when his numbers are lower, and he seems to eat less when his numbers are lower, but this morning I wouldn't bet one single penny on whether he's going to stay high and flat, or take a dive. To me, Pumbaa is still too unpredictable. At the same time, if he does take a dive today, I would bet my life's savings (there's that penny again *LOL*) that people will be here to keep me company and offer good advice while I see him through the dive and potential hypo situation.

Suze

 

[MommaOfMuse]

LOL Then you have already seen a pattern in him hon, you just don't recognize it as a pattern...He is predictablely unpredictable...and you know some cats just are that...the only thing we can predict is that we can't predict them.

Think back before he became diabetic...was he ever predictable? Did you ever know that at this time of day with these kind of weather conditions he would be napping in this spot? Or that he would always do this or that or for that matter NOT do this or that? For example with one of my own civies...for 6 years of living with him I could leave the front door wide open to go check the mail and he would watch from the door..until the day he decided to bolt out and disappear for 10 months..I would have said he was the most predictable cat alive until he wasn't.

Pumbaa is still a cat, and will still do cat things, up to and including not be predictable, it is what makes Feline Diabetes one of the hardest forms of diabetes to control. As well as why most vet's don't even go into what it truly takes to manage it at home and very seldom strive for remission just regulation if the owner is even willing to try to treat at all.

I've seen it so many times at my own vet clinic, my vets know that remission is possible, then have seen Maxwell. And they are very good at staying current on treatment. They do prescribe both Lantus and Levemir, they do promote a low carb diet, and home testing..but they will tell owners upfront this isn't an easy thing to do and ask if they still want to try or just let the animal go. Yet they don't bat an eye at prescribing treatment for a canine diabetic. Why because dogs are a little more predictable, most don't have the flighty nature that cats do...where 9 times out of 10 the doorbell ringing won't phase them but on that 10th time they lose their minds. If you know your dog's personality you can predict his response...not so with cats..some are more predictable than others but they all have those unpredictable moments. Then you add into that unpredictable nature that is inherent in cats all those variables that effect bloodsugar and it is wonder that any of us can predict what they are going to do with a given dose..which is why even those around here that have been treating their diabetic cat for years still test and test fairly often.

Pumbaa may always dive and then bounce that might just be his pattern regardless of insulin. Or his liver may get with the program and smarten up and quit bouncing. Only time will tell. If you just happen to have one that likes to scare the sh*t out of you by diving and then bouncing you just learn how to handle those lows and bounces. Those are the steps to his dance...maybe a change to an in and out insulin like Prozinc might be better for that type of cat, because you can respond quicker to the highs and lows...I don't know I have no personal experience with Prozinc. But it was definitely something that I thought about with Musette because she liked to do those dives and bounces regardless of dose with a depot insulin. Levemir flattened her out some but didn't cure all those dives and bounces, but it did make her less tense. I was still thinking about when what Lev I had for her was gone about switching her again to Prozinc but she passed away before that point got here.

And then there are some of us here that are masochistic enough to figure out how to dance with one sugarcat, get that dance done and then turn around and start dancing with another one, and realize that this is a whole new dance entirely and we don't have a clue what music we are dancing to, or what the steps are...and we are right back to being a newbie all over again. :lol: But what we have learned from the first one is how to look for patterns even if they aren't the same patterns as before, and we have learned what to do for those superlows without our hearts racing, and how to relax during a bounce and back off on the testing so we don't drive ourselves crazy.

Musette taught me with Autumn if she is bouncing off a low, check her at preshots and nadir and let the rest go...no need to waste the strips because she is bouncing. But if I shoot a lower than normal preshot, check in on her at +3 to see if she is going up or down. If up...leave it until nadir...if dropping test more frequently. But above all not to panic, she can hit the high 30s and low 40s and be fine. Just need to give her a little more LC food.

Its kind of like learning to drive a car, every car you drive is unique to that make and model, but they all have the basic parts. But when you first drive a new car, you don't know how it is going to handle a tight turn...overcompensate you lose control, slow down and preceed carefully and you will be fine...but once you learn that car you know what speed you can take that corner at. FD cats are the same way...you learn that some at 40 need Karo and HC food, some don't. Some will hit barely green number and bounce sky high others, others will bounce if they drop fast, or hit a number lower than their bodies are use too, others won't be phased by it.

It is way I try never to say well you need to do this next, I usually say if I was seeing those kind of numbers with one of my own I would handle it this way...whatcha think? Wanna try that and see if it helps? Sometimes I will look at a spreadsheet and see consistantly high numbers that just keep getting worse as the dose goes up and will suggest that perhaps trying less while testing for ketones might be best other times it looks like it is just a case of not enough insulin to break the toxicity. But what I never do is just look at the numbers without asking the caregiver...what is the whole cat picture at those numbers? That even though they are running high do they seem to feel better? Are they gaining weight? Are all 5 of the Ps in place? Because it isn't just a numbers game it is all about having a healthy and happy cat.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

[Pumbaa]

For me personally, "betrayal" is too strong of a word. There is very much a sense of community on the TR board. Just like when you have a close friend in your life, you hate to see that person move even if moving presents them with a much greater set of opportunities. If your cat does better on a different insulin, I suspect if people from TR know, they'd help you to celebrate the success.

Maybe "betrayal" is too strong of a word, but I don't know what other word to use based on some of the reactions I received when I began wondering/questioning if Lantus was the right insulin for Pumbaa.

Yes, regarding the strong sense of community on the TR board, but I find that to be true of all of the boards, and the entire FDMB in general. I tend to not pay much attention to what board people are posting on, because I'm looking for overall information and tricks/tidbits of knowledge that people share. I don't even go to a particular board to view posts, I simply go to the board index and click on "view new posts" to see what people/their cats have been up to, and how various situations were handled so I can continue to learn how to dance my Pumbaa's dance.

All I can tell you with regard to how much consideration to give the advice you're getting is what I tell anyone who asks me: Look at the person who's dispensing information's spreadsheet. Is that what you want your cat's SS to look like? While it is hard for a new member, whether to listen to someone is your responsibility as a caregiver.

Very true! I've actually told some people that I want to copy their SS and put Pumbaa's name on it, in the hope that Pumbaa will live up to those numbers. *LOL*

Suze

 

[Pumbaa]

LOL Then you have already seen a pattern in him hon, you just don't recognize it as a pattern...He is predictablely unpredictable...and you know some cats just are that...the only thing we can predict is that we can't predict them.

haha_smiley Thank god I didn't have coffee in my mouth when I read the above! I'm still laughing!

I used to think that Pumbaa was pretty predictable, with occasional surprises thrown in for good measure so he could live up to being a bona fide juvenile delinquent. *LOL* I didn't realize that, just by the nature of being cats, that FD is one of the most difficult forms of diabetes to control. I pray that Pumbaa doesn't spend the rest of his life diving and bouncing! And I have thought about ProZinc, as well as Levemir, as options for Pumbaa...depending on how he is reacting when I am nearing the end of his Lantus pens - I still have 2-1/2 pens left so I have some time to keep researching and asking questions, before any decision needs to be made.

I'm amazed how much calmer I am now handling the dives, and how I automatically reduce testing frequency during the bounce periods. Like you, I feel like the bounce periods are akin to, "move along, nothing to see here", and a chance for both Pumbaa and I to get a break from the testing.

I think your four diabetic cats truly prove that ECID, and you do a great job of learning each of their particular dances. I don't know that I would ever seek out another diabetic cat to care for, but do know that if one of my mom's cats developed FD, that I would take that cat into my home and deal with it, as my mom would not be able to handle the testing/shooting/charting, etc.

Thank you, Mel, for being someone who looks at the entire picture, including how the cat is feeling/reacting. I've learned some very good habits/traits from you in the last 2-1/2 months, and I appreciate it, tremendously!

Suze