6/24 Simon | AMPS 140 PMPS 512 + 3 470

Hi Daniel, I know this is all very new and how nerve-racking it can be, but constantly changing doses up and down, just keeps messing up the depot.
We can’t actually tell what dose is going to work for Simon when the dose keeps changing and being skipped 🥰

I’m not trying to give you a hard time at all I promise. I know how stressful this all is and it’s still very new.

I would put something in your title like “dose review” and use the drop-down menu question mark.
So that we can get some advice for you on how to dose properly.

That will get Simon into a much more stable cycle and better numbers

Please see below for guidance

START LOW, GO SLOW (SLGS)

The Start Low, Go Slow Method (SLGS) with Lantus, Levemir, or Biosimilars for Diabetic Cats has been adapted from the FDMB's original 5 Steps to Regulating Your Diabetic Cat. Adaptations were necessary to accommodate the action, nuances, and exceptions of the newer Lantus, Levemir, and their Biosimilars insulins.

Requisites when following the Start Low, Go Slow Method:
Learn the signs of and how to treat Hypoglycemia and prepare a Hypo Toolbox.
Test regularly for ketones and know about Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA).
Use a meter calibrated for humans, not a pet-specific meter. Reference numbers given are for measuring blood glucose with a human meter.
Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.
Most kitties are easier to regulate when fed small meals throughout each cycle. Others adapt well to free feeding.

Starting Dose:
1u BID if kitty is not on a wet/canned low carb diet
0.5u BID if kitty has been switched to a wet/canned low carb diet
If the cat was previously on another insulin, the starting dose should be increased or decreased by taking prior data into consideration
Generally, shots are to be given 12 hours apart.
Hold the dose for at least a week:
Unless your cat won’t eat or you suspect hypoglycemia
Unless your kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L). If kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) decrease the dose by 0.25 unit immediately.
After 1 week at a given dose perform a 12 hour curve, testing every 2 hours OR perform an 18 hour curve, testing every 3 hours. Note: Random spot checks are often helpful to "fill in the blanks" on kitty's spreadsheet. The goal is to learn how low the current dose is dropping kitty prior to making dose adjustments.
If nadirs are more than 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.25 unit
If nadirs are between 90 (5 mmol/L) and 149 mg/dl (8.2 mmol/L), maintain the same dose
If nadirs are below 90 mg/dl (5mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.25 unit
As your cat's blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], do lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g., diet or other medications), don't increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete (but decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change).

Don't be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments-- no matter how high your cat's blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may shoot past the right dose.

Lather, Rinse, and Repeat!

How to handle a lower than normal preshot number:

Until you collect enough data to know how your cat will react, we suggest following the guidelines in the FDMB's FAQ Q4.4:
Q4.4. My cat's pre-shot level was way below the usual value. Should I give the injection?
A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.
Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.
Between 150 and 200 (8.3-11.1 mmol/L), you have three options:
a.) give nothing
b.) give a token dose (10-25% of the usual dose)
c.) feed as usual, test in a couple of hours, and make a decision based on that value
Above 200 (11.1 mmol/L) but below the cat's normal pre-shot value, a reduced dose might be wise.
In all cases, if you are reducing or eliminating insulin, it's wise to check for ketones in the urine.
Above the normal pre-shot value, give the usual dose, but if the pre-shot value is consistently elevated, it's a good idea to schedule a full glucose curve to see whether a change in dose or insulin is appropriate. In most cases, the target "peak" value should not be below 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/L), and for some cats it might be higher.
Keep in mind these are general guidelines, and they should be personalized to your own cat's response to insulin. If your experience is that your cat does not became hypoglycemic with a dose which is close to her usual, then personal experience should be your guide.

With experience, you may find that lowering these thresholds may work well for your cat. When you have reached that stage, the following guidelines are suggested for Lantus, Levemir, and Biosimilars users following the Start Low Go Slow approach:

If the preshot number is far below usual preshot numbers:
Do you need to stay on schedule? Then skip the shot.
Do you have some flexibility with your schedule? Then stalling to wait for the number to rise might be a good option. Don't feed, retest after 30-60 minutes, and decide if the number is shootable.
Repeat until the cat either reaches a number at which you are comfortable shooting, or enough time has passed that skipping the shot is necessary.
If the preshot number is near kitty's usual preshot numbers:

Look at your data to see what numbers you have shot in the past and decide what would be a safe, shootable number for your cat. Don't feed. Stall until kitty reaches the preshot number you've decided on and then shoot.

We usually don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 90 mg/dL when following the SLGS Method. Remember that with SLGS, generally speaking, your goal is to achieve flat numbers that are greater than 90 mg/dL. However, let experience, data collected, knowledge of your cat, and availability to monitor help in making the best decisions for your cat.

If kitty is dropping faster or lower than you'd like, please see "Don't Panic! or How to Handle Low Numbers" and post for help or suggestions.
 
Staci shared some really helpful information above. I'll add one more thing. I'm pretty anxious, especially about Moonie. I've had nightmares about hypoglycemia. But what I realized was that I needed to overcome my fear of shooting green/blues to have any chance of getting Moonie into remission. When I was skipping shots without trying to shoot lower numbers, it was more for me than it was for Moonie. (Not saying this is what you're doing at all, it's just what I was doing before).

Eventually, what really helped was listening to someone much wiser and more experienced here, who said that you're not shooting your cat's number now, you're shooting the number your cat will be.

So I learned to get more comfortable with stalling for 20 mins (without food) and retesting. If the number was flat to up, I knew that the effects of the prior dose had worn off so I was shooting into a number that should go up with food. I also started testing Moonie's sensitivity to carbs. I saw her blood glucose one night go from 96 to 142 in 20 mins from 1.5 teaspoons of FF gravy. That was a light bulb moment for me in terms of my confidence level in shooting lower numbers, because I realized it would be super easy for me to bring her blood glucose up if I saw low numbers, so as long as I could monitor, it would be fine. And then since then, I've tested smaller amounts of MC / HC food and LC food to get a better sense of how I can steer her curve. That is, if Moon Moon stops bouncing and gives me a chance to :rolleyes:

If it also makes you feel better, you'll see from other members' SS that shooting lower numbers tends to produce flatter curves (which is what you're aiming for anyway), whereas you'll see more dramatic drops if you're shooting pinks for example.

I think it's just inherently a stressful process shooting the lowest number you've ever shot, no matter what that number is. I made so many posts asking for advice at 200, then 150, then 120, etc. But over time, I've gotten more confident as I progressively shot lower numbers and went through it successfully. And now I pray for blue and green preshots! And of course, Moonie is now throwing me pinks and yellow preshots just as I've become comfortable with lower numbers 🤣
 
Take a look at AMPS on 6/20. It was almost the same number as today. And you delayed and were able to shoot something. Past data can sometimes be a guide as to what to do. A 15-20 minutes stall without food could have helped you decide what to do today. Eventually you will need to shoot lower numbers, when you have the data to do so.

I also agree that if you have to keep skipping, you should reduce by 0.25 units.
 
Some really solid advice has been given already, so I'm just here to say that I too spent a lot of time afraid of shooting blue/green pre-shots and was reducing doses on numbers that I was afraid to shoot. I finally recently started following the advice given to me (similar to what was posted above) and proper protocol and not only has it gotten easier on me (less anxiety and fear), but Mister has been seeing much better cycles too. It's much easier said than done, I know, but Lantus works best with consistent dosing. I'm glad you're posting, and keep being honest about how you feel so that we can all help you through it. You'll get there!!
 
Thanks everyone. I really appreciate these responses. I'm definitely anxious about his numbers after our hypo scare on June 14. It's made me nervous to shoot under 150. I'm very fortunate that he had the scare on a weekend where I was available to sit with him all day and give him syrup. If he has a similar dip during the week, I might not be able to catch it. He hasn't had a consistent V shape between AMPS and PMPS since.

So SLGS says skip under 150 if you can't delay, but he's dipped under the 150 multiple times even after lowering his dose. Today since he was under 150 and I couldn't delay, I decided to skip again:
A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.
Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.

I know skips are not ideal, but on 6/20 I gave him a token dose after delaying. By the evening on 6/21, he was even lower, and I wondered if the token dose just screwed things up further. Should I be concerned with too many token doses throwing things off? I guess having some insulin in the system is better than none? I'm trying to get him back to the V shape, maybe that's not the right approach.

It does make me feel more confident after reading your comments about similar fears of dosing at lower numbers. To do what's best for him, I might have to make some radical changes to my daily routine so I can test more frequently during the week. And since I skipped this morning, I'll also move his PMPS time back another hour to save up for delays if needed. This will ultimately eat into my own tight sleep schedule but if it's what he needs for now I'll do it. Hopefully this levels out soon.
 
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Should I be concerned with too many token doses throwing things off?
Too many token doses will deplete the depot, meaning likely higher numbers for several cycles until the depot builds again.

You definitely don't want to shoot those lower preshot numbers the first few times if you cannot monitor him. There is an exception for cats that were recently in DKA or throwing ketones. Thankfully not something you had to deal with at present.

One thing to note about the 6/14 AM cycle, it was after a bounce breaking cycle. Look how the 6/13 PM cycle started at 440, but he worked his way down to 169 the next morning. Those types of cycles after a bounce has broken can be more active, meaning going lower. And a signal to be more cautious, test early, and feed if needed to slow him down.
 
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