6/24 Jinx PMPS 130, +2 114, +4 121

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Joe and Jinx

Joe and Jinx

Member Since 2012
Yesterday: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=73691

Jinx ate the Rad Cat raw turkey last night but doesn't want anything to do with it this morning. Picked up some Stella and Chewy's freeze dried chicken but it appears the carb content is around 20%. Can someone please confirm?
http://www.stellaandchewys.com/cat-driedchicken.php

Gave him some of his old NV canned chicken and he didn't eat hardly anything. So, I just gave him some tuna fish to get something in his stomach and he ate a little bit. I'm really starting to get concerned that's he's dehydrated because of all the recent throw-up. For cats that are dehydrated, is it typical for them to have a loss of appetite? Haven't seen him drink much water either. He just goes over and stares at the water fountain.

If I have to bring him in to the vets, what do I need to be aware of regarding his insulin dosing? Do I just shoot the same and be prepared for it to go up? Sorry to bring up such lousy news this morning. This is so frustrating.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283

Hi Joe,

Sorry to hear you are frustrated today/ Don't worry you guys will get through this.

Most of us here reference these sources for carb content:

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Uu8g1u8Su9YTgxNGE1MDItM2MyMC00Y2Y3LWI4ODMtMzhkYTkxOGM4NThk/edit

or, for how to make your own raw diet -

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=cannedfoods#Commercial_Foods

I don't see Stell an Chewey's on either reference so I can't advise you there.

As for dehydration, the best way to tell if Jinx is dehydrated is to lift his scruff on the back of his neck. If it snaps back fairly quickly then he's hydrated, if it stays up for a while before going back down then he may be dehydrated.

By nature, cats are not big water drinkers.They can stay hydrated fairly well from the moisture in their prey. When you switched from dry to canned / raw, Jinx is getting most of his water content from that now. When I switched to all canned diet I noticed the same thing. When I told my Vet,she said it was normal and if I saw him drinking more than the occasional lap of water that I should be concerned. It's like being on the watermelon diet and someone offers you a glass of water.

Taking Jinx for a Vet visit wouldn't be a bad idea.

Just be prepared for the Vet to question your approach on how you are handling Jinx's feline diabetes. Some Vets are not up on the latest and don't understand what you may be doing with regulating and diet. And whatever you do, don't say "the people on the internet told me....".

You may want to print out Jinx's BG chart and the Roomp Rand study (it's in the Sticky on this Lantus main forum called Tight Regulation Protocol) to have handy to show him/her solid research and how it's working for you.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283

Thank-you, Cathy. I did try the skin turgor test and am pretty confident he isn't severely dehydrated. But his skin does seem more tough when I tent it before administering insulin. But it could be in my head. I think I'm going to see if my pet-sitter/vet tech can come over today and confirm before I bring him in.

If I do have to bring him in to the vets, is it advised to give him the same insulin dose? I'm assuming the stress will only cause his BGs to rise so low number are less of a concern there, right?
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283

Joe and Jinx said:
If I do have to bring him in to the vets, is it advised to give him the same insulin dose? I'm assuming the stress will only cause his BGs to rise so low number are less of a concern there, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, keep to your regular routine. His BGs may rise at the Vet's but they will come down once he's home. As long as you and the Vet know the higher number is due to the stress then there should be no problem.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156

Joe

Also check his gums. If they are slick to the touch, then he's not dehydrated. What tuna are you feeding him? Cat food tuna? If it's human tuna, please check the can. If it has anything but tuna and water, please don't give him that. The vegetable broth contains soy which he shouldn't have.

Did you try the baby food? That usually works pretty well to get them eating and the carbs aren't that high. It's not something you can feed regularly but just a day or so won't hurt.

I don't have the info on the Stella and Chewy's but I did feed that occasionally before Gracie was FD and I remember getting the as-feds and it was too high in carbs. You can't use the guaranteed analysis to determine the %calories from carbs.

One thing I will say is that the best food for Jinx right now is the one he will eat. It's more important to keep him eating than to worry about carbs. If there were any chance he had any type of infection plus not eating/drinking enough, we start to worry about DKA. Even though his numbers are not that high, they don't have to be if other things are going on in the body. You should be checking his ketones daily until he's eating/drinking and everything appears to be back to normal.

I would continue to give him his full dose of insulin as long as he's above 50. Sending him healing vines.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156

Yes, his regular dose is good. The only time we reduce for the vet is if they are going to get anesthesia.

In march when Tess was throwing up form the ABS she was on I took her in and she got some sub-q fluids and a shot of Cerenia. It helped a lot.

Are you adding water to Jinx's canned food? I add nearly as much water as I give food. on the Stella and Chewey's, many of us have tried and had little luck getting hard numbers form them. I think it at least MC if not HC though.

I've found a new treat for Tess that gets her to eat every time! Bravo Bonus Bites Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts. A little pricy w/ the shipping, but she loves them and hearts have taurine which cats really need. They are dog treats (I cut them up for her) and not as crumbly as the chicken, but boy do they work!
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

I went to Safeway last night and they don't carry Beechnut. I'm going to head out to King Soopers and/or Walmart to check here pretty soon.

Just put out his raw and NV canned chicken and he didn't touch them. Eating some tuna fish right now though. It's Bumble Bee w/ tuna, water and vegetable broth.

Have a vet tech coming over soon to check to confirm whether he's dehydrated. Will check for ketones today as well.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

Neither of my cats drink much water on raw, Neko does a bit but Theo none at all. I do add a few spoonfuls of warm water to warm the meat so they are getting plenty of water from their food.

I second Ann's comment on the freeze dried hearts. I've tried both quail and chicken hearts http://www.mycanadianpets.ca/gpage1.html and both cats LOVE them.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

Joe

Any of the human tunas with vegetable broth are a NO. They have caused some cats to go into renal failure. If he wants tuna, he needs cat food tuna. I believe Trader Joe's tuna for cats is low carb.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

I'm doing the same with the warm water and it worked great last night but not today. I'm going to order some of that freeze dried food you suggested tonight. Thanks, Wendy and Ann.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

I did not know that, Marje. It's got 0 carbs so is it the vegetable broth that's bad for them? I'm feeling like a really lousy bean right now...

The pet-sitter/vet tech came by and confirmed with the skin turgor test that Jinx is not dehydrated. She was going to draw up some urine to test for ketones and UTI but she felt his bladder and said it was the size of a grape so we opted not to do it. She said cats with ketones almost always have a very distinct smelling breath which she said Jinx does not have. I will still check for them today, though.

She seems to think pancreatitis is a possibility based on his symptoms and the frequent diet changes over the past two months. So I'm going to schedule an appointment for him tomorrow to get him in to see an internal medicine vet.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

The best test for pancreatitis is the Spec fPL that has to be sent out (so it takes a day to get the results back). My vet tried to sell me another test that they did in house, that was an ancient test that is no longer considered all that great.

Here's a link about pancreatitis http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?8,876722,876722

And I believe I've heard it's the human canned tuna in water that has soy added that's not good for cats.

I'm wishing you and Jinx luck at the vet visit tomorrow.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx AMPS 283, +2 197, +4 156, +6 133

(((Joe))) do NOT feel like a bad bean....you are doing fantastic!!!!

We used to give our cats the juice from human tuna all the time. If I hadn't been a member of the CRF Yahoo Group, I would have never known about the vegetable broth/soy thing. For some reason, that info is just not out there. You are not the only one who gives your kitty the human tuna/juice. I just wanted to be sure you knew not to.

I think it's a good idea to get the specfPL done as Dyana suggested.

If you take him in tomorrow and the vet thinks he has pancreatitis just from symptoms (still run the test!), ask about fluids and pain meds like buprenorphine. Even though he doesn't seem dehydrated, fluids are a good supportive therapy for kitties with pancreatitis and it is a painful condition.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130

Thanks, Dyana and Marje. The internist is off Monday so I scheduled the appt. for Tuesday. But I'm going to see if I can bring him in tomorrow to have that test done. That way, I can hopefully get the results on Tuesday so we can confirm or rule out pancreatitis by the time I meet with the vet.

As far as his appetite, he ate very little NV canned chicken today but I gave him some Beech Nut Chicken in Chicken Broth per Marje's suggestion and he gobbled it down. I really hope he holds it down and it's a non-eventful night because I feel like my options for bringing him up from <50 are limited right now. Will check him at +2 at the latest but maybe +1.5 considering everything.

Marje, or anyone else that's fed baby food, I gave him 1/4 of a 2.5oz jar at +11.5 to see if he would eat it and to make sure his stomach would tolerate it before I shot. When I shot, I gave him 1/2 of the jar. Should I treat the amount the same as I would his regular LC food, i.e. giving him 4 x 3oz cans per day? I will definitely subtract from the baby food if I can get him to eat his regular food.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130

IMHO, I would let him eat as much of the baby food as he wants as long as he keeps it down. You can also boil a chicken breast and see if he'll eat that. I think the important thing is to just let him eat small amounts often.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130

Thanks, Marje. I'll boil up a breast now and will plan on feeding the baby food if nothing else works.

Just called a 24hr emergency vet clinic in my town and they said they can run the Spec fPL but factors such as recent vomiting and even diabetes can cause the result to come back as positive. So according to them, if it comes back negative, he doesn't have pancreatitis. But if it comes back positive, it's not guaranteed that it's pancreatitis. Very interested to hear thoughts on this.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130

bang.gif
(for the vet's office, not for you, Joe).

If they are doing a snap specfPL in the office, that could be true. But if they send it off like they should, those are pretty durn accurate. The diabetes in and of itself should not give a positive specfPL nor should vomiting unless it is because he has pancreatitis. I repeat
bang.gif
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130

Thanks, Marje. I just called them and reiterated that I want the Spec fPL that gets sent off to the lab. They called back and said they need to know which type of Spec fPL panel to run but the lab they send the blood off to is closed.

The person I spoke to said the 3(?) different panels vary between ~$150-300. She then said (relaying info from on-call vet) that if it turns out the test for $300 is the one I need, why not pay an extra $50-75 to get an ultrasound done and get the complete picture of what's going on... So the on-call vet is going to email me supposedly updated medical literature which supports their claim that other conditions can trigger a positive Spec fPL for pancreatitis.

I've gotten far more credible and helpful information from members on this board than any vet I've spoken to since Jinx was dx'd, so I'm pessimistic the literature will be current and/or convincing. But I'll pass it on to those who are interested.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130, +2 114

Going to bring him in for an ultrasound tomorrow. If that will tell me whether he has pancreatitis and/or a host of other issues, I'd rather get it done at once and know tomorrow.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130, +2 114

Good luck with the vet appointment tomorrow. Here's hoping you aren't too busy tonight. Sending healing vines and good eating thoughts to Jinx.
 
Re: 6/24 Jinx PMPS 130, +2 114

Evening Joe! We hope the vet visit goes well tomorrow and Jinx goes back to eating for you! Sending healing and comfort vines to you guys.
 
Because you asked me in a PM. Here's my story, but it's long, so I'll try to type fast. Please forgive my spelling.

J.D. had been acting off all weekend, and threw up on Sunday. He didn't want to eat. But I encouraged him, and got enough in. I had Monday off, and decided to go to the vet just to have him checked out. The people on this forum said I should get the Spec fPL test and full bloodwork, and to ask about fluids, and xrays. The vet said he was not dehydrated, so did not need fluids, and could do the full bloodwork that day, but the Spec fPL test had to be a fasting test. That I could fast him and come back the next day for that test. I complained that he was diabetic and I had to work the next day. They said to fast him from midnight on, and bring him in first thing in the morning at 8:00am (they officially open at 8:30am) when a vet tech could draw the blood, and then I could go to work.
I ended up taking Tuesday off, anyway, but showed up at 8:00am anyway for the blood test for the pancreatitis. I left the hospital and when I got home (a 4 minute drive) I noticed they had the wrong test on the bill. It said TLI Feline $131.68. I waited the 5 minutes until 8:30am to tell them that they had charged me for the wrong test, and they said that it had already been done. I said the test I asked for is a Spec fPL and needs to be sent out and the vet told me she would have the results for me on Wednesday. I was mad!, and they could tell it in my voice! I was thinking I would have to fast him again the next night and bring him in again on Wednesday morning for another blood draw to get the correct test done, but the receptionist or tech I was talking to said sometimes they save extra blood. In the meantime, I had picked up a prescription for an anti-nausea drug called ondansetron and went to my local grocery store pharmacy to fill it, and it was $33.00 for the 10 pills. I had also received a prescription for the pain med Buprenex and I asked the pharmacist if they had that, and they didn't but could order it for me and it would be here on Wednesday. Well I didn't want to wait for the pain meds, so I asked what I should do, should I go to other pharmacies? and they said that the vet should know. I guess I was pretty stressed too, because of my cat, but I went storming directly back to the vet, now that they were open and demanded the full bloodwork results (which were fine), that they send out whatever blood was left for the Spec fPL test that I had ordered and told them that I would pay whatever the difference was, and asked them what I was supposed to do with the Buprenex prescription and where was I supposed to get it. Luckily they still had some blood left to send out, and the Spec fPL test turned out to be only $86.00 even though it was sent out (so I ended up with a credit) and about the buprenex, they said oh, we can fill that here :evil:
I also got a prescription for the appetite stimulant cyproheptadine, since mine had expired.
I gave J.D. the .1 of buprenex that the vet prescribed and it was too much, he was all wobbily. I tried .05 the next time, and eventually used about .02 when needed (J.D. is 13lbs 12oz).
His Spec fPL test came back as 7.4 and below 5.3 is "normal", so he had pancreatitis.
I ended up getting Ondansetron from Costco for .33 cents a pill (as opposed to the $3.30 a pill at the grocery store pharmacy). I went back a few weeks later to have the Spec fPL test done again and he was 6.5. He has been on Ondansetron and Pepcid pretty much twice a day, and buprenex rarely but as needed, since March 20th.
Sorry, for the long post, but didn't want you to go through the same experience.
 
I appreciate you writing that, Dyana. When I called the emergency clinic last night, there was some confusion as to which Spec fPL test/panel I would need and they told me to call back in the morning when the lab was open. I've ultimately decided to get an ultrasound, though. However, from what I've read, an ultrasound will not always detect mild forms of pancreatitis but can detect the liver and intestinal changes indicative to pancreatitis. I will still ask her about getting bloodwork done; specifically the Spec fPL, to complement the ultrasound. Basically, I want to get as much done as possible today to get a picture of what's going on with him.
 
I don't know the whole story with Jinx. I just wanted you to be aware that you don't want to give appetite stimulants (cyproheptadine or mirtazapine) unless you also address nausea at the same time with something like ondansetron.
 
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