6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25; Hi PMPS

[RG & Mali (GA)]

yesterday's condo

Mornin' all
What a day yesterday :!: I won't bore everyone with the particulars of yesterday so for anyone interested see yesterday's condo.
Must get Mali girl to eat today and she has no interest so let the assist feeding begin. Got a lot of points to ponder from Marje last night and need to organize some thoughts for today. As I type, Mali is in one of her guttural squawls walking around and mostly she hovers over her water bowl with her throat and chin in the water. She got fluids both subq and IV yesterday and I will start them again tomorrow. Gotta get this girl turned around.
Thanks to everyone for the vines and thoughts and know that you guys are the best :YMHUG:
Have a great weekend in LL :!:

 

[ecurie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Morning!
Sending tons of turn around vines and prayers for Mali this morning. You really got a mountain of good info yesterday. I know you'll process it and between you, Marje and the others here who have dealt with similar issues, your vet you'll get Mali feeling well.

MUNCH Mali!! Have you tried baby food to get her to eat? It needs to be just meat and broth. NO ONION especially. Beechnut worked for Ollie after his dental when he didn't want to eat. I've also seen lots of people say that Kentucky Fried Chicken works like magic when kittehs aren't interested in food.

Sending vines and prayers for you also. Hang tough.

Mali, you gots to munch your fuds. Can't be all hungry for surfin'!!! I gots you some new board wax yesterday. You'll be doing great in no time. see you at the surfin hut. xoxo -oliver

 

[Dyana]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Robert,
You might want to check out this Yahoo Feline Assisted Feeding Group. They are highly recommended by one of our FDMB members Karrie and Maverick who is very active in the group, and help people with inappetant cats. Here is Karrie's most recent post on the board http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=97562&p=1044221#p1044197.
Please keep us updated on how Mali is doing. I would just try the syringes you have until you can find the ringless ones.
If you have a medical supply store near you, they may also have the ringless syringes.

 

[Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

((((Robert & Mali))))

I just got caught up on Mali's problems and although I am not able to give advice, I want to send you lots and lots of support, healing vines, and good thoughts. Hopefully Mali will rally today and eat. Beechnut Stage 1 turkey with broth is what I give Rusty his allergy formula in. He gobbles it up, so it must taste good (although he may just like the taste of the Allerplex, which smells like bouillon cube!)

Feel better, Mali! Try to get some sleep today, Robert.

Ella & Rusty

 

[Frosty]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Hi Robert. So sorry that Mali isn't eating for you. We have Mali and you in our Prayers.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Sending many appy vines to Mali.

I've had my best luck with the meat from fried chicken ( we don't have a kfc) just to get a few bites in on their own.
I've been reading Mali's history too.
Sounds like you will be helping educate your vet ....

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555:first syringe feeding

Thanks to everone for thoughts,prayers and vines :YMHUG:

Just finished first syringe feeding with Mali and declare it a success. Got two of the 35ml tubes fed of Hi Cal Iams (7% Carb) mixed with just a small squirt of water blended. It was a group effort (DW and I) but after viewing the video, I decided my past efforts were too fast so we slowed it down this time and by the time she had it all in, she had developed her own stinkeye and very low guttural growl I thing signifying this fun was probably over. :lol:
She is drinking some water while she hovers over it. She gets more subq fluids tomorrow.
Thanks again for all the visits :thumbup

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Robert

I just need to get Gracies shot done and I will respond. I wanted to just see how Mali was doing. I'll be back in about 15 mins.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

I don't know if you've taken a look at Dr. Lisa's low phosphorus food list. Given Marje's comments, you might want to transition Mali to a lower phos, LC food. I suspect someone has provided you with the link to Tanya's CRF site. I'm not sure if Mali has renal disease of if this is temporary. Regardless, Tanya's site is the equivalent of FDMB for kidney issues in cats. FD is hard on the kidneys so it can be useful info since it seems like Mali may be prone to kidney issues.

A former FDMB member put together a list of methods to help entice a cat to eat. Here's the info:

• forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
• parmesean cheese
• smashed crumbles of dry food
• bonito/tuna flakes (Can be found at Asian markets or sometimes in the Asian food section of a large grocery store.)
• halo chicken treats (freeze dried chicken) -- crumble into dust over food -- my Wolfie loves this stuff.
• pour a little water from tuna in water over food (I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats and it shouldn't contain soy -- check labels)
• powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:

• trader joe tuna for cats
• baby food -- beechnut or Gerber Stage 2 -- you want a baby food that is only a protein + broth (although the Gerber contains cornstarch). It should have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
• kentucky fried chicken
• deli turkey /chicken
• plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
• canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
• chicken broth -- low sodium

If enticements don't work, you should consider:
-assist feeding ( syringe or make little meatballs and place in mouth)
-and/or talking to your vet about appetite stimulents ( mirtazapine or cyproheptidine)

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Robert

I will try to prioritize what I see as crucial here besides eating which is always THE priority. The best food for a cat like Mali is the one she will eat.

1. get some aluminum hydroxide phosphorus binder; if your vet does not carry it, then get a prescription from her today before she is gone for the weekend. Some places require it, some don't. While you are waiting for the script, call around to compounding pharmacies and see who carries it; you don't need a lot to just get you through until you get it from thriving pets.com (provided link yesterday) but you MUST get it and start adding it to every bit of food you give her. If you can let me know her weight, I'll tell you how much she needs. Dr. Nagode is a renowned expert in CKD and he has a chart so it's easy for me to get it for you.
The binder works on the phosphorus in the food so instead of giving the binder TO Mali, you mix it in the food and it binds the P so she gets less.

2. get injectable famotidine (pepcid ac) from your vet; if you can't get the pills in her via pill pocket, the only other way is injectable. Your vet will have to tell you the dosage because I've never had to give the injectable. Also...get the script for zofran (ondansetron) for nausea. The tabs are tiny but it sounds like you will need to have it compounded so Mali will take it.

3. Personally, I do not think giving 100 mls EOD or 50 mls a day of lactated ringers solution is much and I think she needs more. 50 mls is 10 tsps or 2.5 tbsps of fluid! I have had two cats with heart murmurs (one of them also with an arrhythmia that he needed meds for). The smaller kitty, Teddi, got 75 mls every day and she had a 3/6 murmur. Max also had a 3/6 murmur and he got 100 mls bid the last month of his life. I don't want to tell you how much to give her because I have no idea what her heart looks like....if it's just a murmur, it's not as big an issue as if she actually has some cardiomyopathy (thickening of the heart muscle). I would ask my vet if 75 mls a day would endanger her heart. If she says it would, then I'd still do every day but I'd do 50 mls. Truly....EOD fluids are not effective at the stage where Mali is.

Here is a link for the PE Oral Syringes that do not have rings. If you already have a good syringe, or if your vet has these, that's awesome! I buy the 10ml syringes.

Ok...enough for me to throw at you right now. You have to get the phosphorus down and the acid handled. If this guttural meow is new, it's the acid; it will affect their meow. If it's not new....YAY!!!

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Robert

I will try to prioritize what I see as crucial here besides eating which is always THE priority. The best food for a cat like Mali is the one she will eat.

1. get some aluminum hydroxide phosphorus binder; if your vet does not carry it, then get a prescription from her today before she is gone for the weekend. Some places require it, some don't. While you are waiting for the script, call around to compounding pharmacies and see who carries it; you don't need a lot to just get you through until you get it from thriving pets.com (provided link yesterday) but you MUST get it and start adding it to every bit of food you give her. If you can let me know her weight, I'll tell you how much she needs. Dr. Nagode is a renowned expert in CKD and he has a chart so it's easy for me to get it for you.
The binder works on the phosphorus in the food so instead of giving the binder TO Mali, you mix it in the food and it binds the P so she gets less.

2. get injectable famotidine (pepcid ac) from your vet; if you can't get the pills in her via pill pocket, the only other way is injectable. Your vet will have to tell you the dosage because I've never had to give the injectable. Also...get the script for zofran (ondansetron) for nausea. The tabs are tiny but it sounds like you will need to have it compounded so Mali will take it.

3. Personally, I do not think giving 100 mls EOD or 50 mls a day of lactated ringers solution is much and I think she needs more. 50 mls is 10 tsps or 2.5 tbsps of fluid! I have had two cats with heart murmurs (one of them also with an arrhythmia that he needed meds for). The smaller kitty, Teddi, got 75 mls every day and she had a 3/6 murmur. Max also had a 3/6 murmur and he got 100 mls bid the last month of his life. I don't want to tell you how much to give her because I have no idea what her heart looks like....if it's just a murmur, it's not as big an issue as if she actually has some cardiomyopathy (thickening of the heart muscle). I would ask my vet if 75 mls a day would endanger her heart. If she says it would, then I'd still do every day but I'd do 50 mls. Truly....EOD fluids are not effective at the stage where Mali is.

Here is a link for the PE Oral Syringes that do not have rings. If you already have a good syringe, or if your vet has these, that's awesome! I buy the 10ml syringes.

Ok...enough for me to throw at you right now. You have to get the phosphorus down and the acid handled. If this guttural meow is new, it's the acid; it will affect their meow. If it's not new....YAY!!!

Marje, thanks for this info. Problem is my vet and the compounding pharmacy is closed today. The two emergency vets close by open tonight and I will see if I can get any of this from them w/o rx. As far as the Pepcid AC, i have that and I'm wondering about crushing and adding a little water for a liquid shot. I've done that with Cerenia and got most of down her. Her weight now is about 8 1/2lbs down from 8 3/4lbs. I am about to feed her again now...trying to get 2 cans down her today and tomorrow. I don't know about the cardiomyopathy, only the 3/6 murmur and of course no one to ask until Monday.
Also the syringes I have are the Monoject 35ml and 60ml.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Wow....that astonishes me that the vet and compounding pharmacy are closed on Saturdays in that area. They are open even in small town Tucson!

Yes...you can crush the pepcid and mix with water and give it in a syringe. It doesn't taste very good....I will warn you. She might froth...I don't know; I've never given it that way because my cats will eat pill pockets and if they don't feel well enough to eat, they are all easy to pill. Maybe put it in some homemade chicken broth. (I never give my cats even canned organic chicken broth; there is too much of a chance it could have soy or onions in it....neither good for cats).

The MJs are fine....I have some of those as well. You just might go through them a little faster because the ring starts to keep them from gliding smoothly.

If you are able to get the AlOH, it is normally 300 mg in a loosely packed 1/4 tsp. At her phosphorus level of 7.3 and according to Dr. Nagode's chart, Mali needs 50mg/lb. 50 x 8.5 = 425 mg; 3/8 tsp = 450 mg so if you gave between 2/8-3/8 tsp A DAY total, that would be about right for now.

Gus gets 1/4 tsp a day TOTAL. So we just put 1/4 tsp in a measure first thing in the morning and then each time we feed him, we sprinkle a little on his food, mix it in. We do it so that we are able to use most of it by 10 pm or so because we give his pepcid at midnight. You need to separate out when you give the pepcid from when you give the AlOH by a couple hours so they don't interfere with each other's absorption.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

I don't know if you've taken a look at Dr. Lisa's low phosphorus food list. Given Marje's comments, you might want to transition Mali to a lower phos, LC food. I suspect someone has provided you with the link to Tanya's CRF site. I'm not sure if Mali has renal disease of if this is temporary. Regardless, Tanya's site is the equivalent of FDMB for kidney issues in cats. FD is hard on the kidneys so it can be useful info since it seems like Mali may be prone to kidney issues.

A former FDMB member put together a list of methods to help entice a cat to eat. Here's the info:

• forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
• parmesean cheese
• smashed crumbles of dry food
• bonito/tuna flakes (Can be found at Asian markets or sometimes in the Asian food section of a large grocery store.)
• halo chicken treats (freeze dried chicken) -- crumble into dust over food -- my Wolfie loves this stuff.
• pour a little water from tuna in water over food (I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats and it shouldn't contain soy -- check labels)
• powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:

• trader joe tuna for cats
• baby food -- beechnut or Gerber Stage 2 -- you want a baby food that is only a protein + broth (although the Gerber contains cornstarch). It should have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
• kentucky fried chicken
• deli turkey /chicken
• plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
• canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
• chicken broth -- low sodium

If enticements don't work, you should consider:
-assist feeding ( syringe or make little meatballs and place in mouth)
-and/or talking to your vet about appetite stimulents ( mirtazapine or cyproheptidine)

Thanks very much for this info, Sienne! I had seen Dr. Lisa's list previously, but until now it didn't mean that much to me. I had not seen Tanya's CRF site so thanks for including that link, also.
I keep Fortiflora and have used it on and off when Mali was eating well and my DW likes to add a little tuna with it's water to Mali's food also. I have read that tuna is not what we want to feed our kitties on a regular basis, though. The Kentucky Fried Chicken makes me laugh :lol: but as we all know and Marje just reiterated, the best food is what the cat will eat. Thank you for that list also. I did find cyproheptidine up in some of the medicines that the vet had Rx'd when Mali was first dx'd for pancreatitis and forgot it was there so I just managed to get 1/4 pill and 1/2 Pepcid AC down Mali's throat right after syringe feeding her for the second time today. She just doesn't take kindly to that pill gun but as we say...any port in a storm.

 

[Ann & Tess GA]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Sending lots of eating vines for Mali. Call some pharmacies on the phos binder, it may not need an RX and someone may have it. There is a tab on Tess's SS that lists foods that are both LC and low phos. Any easy one to find is the Friskies Special Diet Turkey and Giblets, 5% carbs ME and .80% phos DM. I can find it at the local grocery store.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Sending lots of eating vines for Mali. Call some pharmacies on the phos binder, it may not need an RX and someone may have it. There is a tab on Tess's SS that lists foods that are both LC and low phos. Any easy one to find is the Friskies Special Diet Turkey and Giblets, 5% carbs ME and .80% phos DM. I can find it at the local grocery store.

Thanks, Ann for that. I called the Banfield Pharmacy (Pet Smart) and they didn't have the phos binder and said they couldn't Rx it w/o bring Mali in to them in any event. I didn't think about called human pharmacies b/c I didn't know they stocked it. I will make some calls on that now
Thanks too for the LC and LPhos list..I will check that out for Mali when we get her back eating.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Morning!
Sending tons of turn around vines and prayers for Mali this morning. You really got a mountain of good info yesterday. I know you'll process it and between you, Marje and the others here who have dealt with similar issues, your vet you'll get Mali feeling well.

MUNCH Mali!! Have you tried baby food to get her to eat? It needs to be just meat and broth. NO ONION especially. Beechnut worked for Ollie after his dental when he didn't want to eat. I've also seen lots of people say that Kentucky Fried Chicken works like magic when kittehs aren't interested in food.

Sending vines and prayers for you also. Hang tough.

Mali, you gots to munch your fuds. Can't be all hungry for surfin'!!! I gots you some new board wax yesterday. You'll be doing great in no time. see you at the surfin hut. xoxo -oliver

Hey Ollie..you know what my beans been doin' to me??? Huh??? you want to know?? They been shooting runny fud in my mouf and makin' me swallow it and then it runs down my chinny chin chin...a girl can't pick up no guys when she looks like dat, huh?-Mali

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Morning!
Sending tons of turn around vines and prayers for Mali this morning. You really got a mountain of good info yesterday. I know you'll process it and between you, Marje and the others here who have dealt with similar issues, your vet you'll get Mali feeling well.

MUNCH Mali!! Have you tried baby food to get her to eat? It needs to be just meat and broth. NO ONION especially. Beechnut worked for Ollie after his dental when he didn't want to eat. I've also seen lots of people say that Kentucky Fried Chicken works like magic when kittehs aren't interested in food.

Sending vines and prayers for you also. Hang tough.

Mali, you gots to munch your fuds. Can't be all hungry for surfin'!!! I gots you some new board wax yesterday. You'll be doing great in no time. see you at the surfin hut. xoxo -oliver

Hey Ollie..you know what my beans been doin' to me??? Huh??? you want to know?? They been shooting runny fud in my mouf and makin' me swallow it and then it runs down my chinny chin chin...a girl can't pick up no guys when she looks like dat, huh?-Mali

Hi Mary, thanks for stopping by...we have not tried the baby food or the fried chicken yet (that still cracks me up) but I will try it all to get Miss Mali eating again.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555

Wow....that astonishes me that the vet and compounding pharmacy are closed on Saturdays in that area. They are open even in small town Tucson!

Yes...you can crush the pepcid and mix with water and give it in a syringe. It doesn't taste very good....I will warn you. She might froth...I don't know; I've never given it that way because my cats will eat pill pockets and if they don't feel well enough to eat, they are all easy to pill. Maybe put it in some homemade chicken broth. (I never give my cats even canned organic chicken broth; there is too much of a chance it could have soy or onions in it....neither good for cats).

The MJs are fine....I have some of those as well. You just might go through them a little faster because the ring starts to keep them from gliding smoothly.

If you are able to get the AlOH, it is normally 300 mg in a loosely packed 1/4 tsp. At her phosphorus level of 7.3 and according to Dr. Nagode's chart, Mali needs 50mg/lb. 50 x 8.5 = 425 mg; 3/8 tsp = 450 mg so if you gave between 2/8-3/8 tsp A DAY total, that would be about right for now.

Gus gets 1/4 tsp a day TOTAL. So we just put 1/4 tsp in a measure first thing in the morning and then each time we feed him, we sprinkle a little on his food, mix it in. We do it so that we are able to use most of it by 10 pm or so because we give his pepcid at midnight. You need to separate out when you give the pepcid from when you give the AlOH by a couple hours so they don't interfere with each other's absorption.

yeah, my vet closes at noon on Saturday and the compounding pharmacy is not open at all on Saturday and I had to take care of some business mid-late am and did not get your post till right about noon. We just finished giving Mali her second feeding by MJ 35ml. and we decided to go ahead and give her the pill gun at the end of the second feeding syringe since she would be mad anyway :evil: and it worked. I gave her 1/2 pepcid AC and found some cyproheptidine that I didn't know I had from one of Mali's early visits to the vet so at least I've got some of your suggestions working today. I will call some regular pharmacies to see about the ALOH and whether I can get it...just posted to Ann & Tess that I tryed the Pet Smart pharm and the didn't have it.
Thanks for figuring the dosage for when I am able to get it.
p.s. I make my own chicken broth so I just about always have some in the freezer

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Robert

You should only be giving 1/4 of a 10mg pepcid AC ....not 1/2....twice a day. Was that a typo?

Hmm...sorry...thought we gave you Tanya's link some time ago. Hard to remember how much and what we've dumped on you.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Robert

You should only be giving 1/4 of a 10mg pepcid AC ....not 1/2....twice a day. Was that a typo?

Hmm...sorry...thought we gave you Tanya's link some time ago. Hard to remember how much and what we've dumped on you.

Oops...damn! I didn't read close enough...I gave her 1/2 of a 20mg tab...what do i do now??

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

bump

 

[mariko]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Hi Robert,
I am sorry your beautiful Mali isn't doing good.
I saw your other post about Papcid overdose... Sorry it happened, but glad Mali is OK.
You are taking care of Mali wonderfully.
I hope her appetite will improve... sending lots of eating vines.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Just checking to see how Mali is. SS not updated nailbite_smile nailbite_smile

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Just checking to see how Mali is. SS not updated nailbite_smile nailbite_smile

Sorry about that....we just got caught up in feeding her last night after dinner and were so tired, I didn't update but no surprise she went back to Hi at PMPS.
I talked to a pharmacist at HEB grocery close to me yesterday and I ask him about the ALOh and they didn't have it but he said their antacid contained same stuff. I certainly don't know if it will work but here are active ingredients in each 5ml tsp.

Aluminum Hydroxide (equiv. to dried gel, USP) 200mg
Magnesium Hydroxide 200mg
Smithecone 20mg

Just thought it might work until I can make some headway tomorrow.
She still has no interest in food and continues to stretch across her water bowl and wet her bib down....she goes out and looks into the pool and is very listless.
I fought with myself whether to give her fluids yesterday after all she had on Friday and didn't, but I will give her 100ml this morning after her shot and then give her first feeding. You can tell she is in pain when she walks with the meowing..she walks a while then lays down to rest. It is very hard to watch her deteriorate like she has in just a couple of days.

Ok, should I give her more Pepcid AC today? Of course, the right dose of 1/4 10mg tab :? Let me know what you think about the antacid from HEB.

 

[RG & Mali (GA)]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Hi Robert,
I am sorry your beautiful Mali isn't doing good.
I saw your other post about Papcid overdose... Sorry it happened, but glad Mali is OK.
You are taking care of Mali wonderfully.
I hope her appetite will improve... sending lots of eating vines.

Hi Mariko,
I appreciate your thoughts on Mali. She is a sick kitty right now but we are trying to get her turned around. It looks like your Lucy has some the the same issues as Mali. I am glad she doing well and it looks like she is being taken very good care of by her bean.
Thanks again for checking in on Mali.

 

[Dyana]

Re: 6/22 Mali AMPS 555; 201 +6.25

Hi Robert. I don't know about the meds. I'm just here for support and prayers for Mali to feel better today.

She can't get in the pool can she?

Hugs to you and soft loving pets to Mali from us.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

No...do not give her the antacids from HEB. Aluminum hydroxide works on the food before the cat eats it....it doesn't work after the food has been ingested. In other words, it doesn't lower the cats phosphorus level. It binds the phosphorus in the food so it is not available to the cat. Then the P level comes down because there is less of the P for the cat to consume. Make sense?

Yes...give her the correct dose of Pepcid today. I would also give her fluids.

Perhaps you can make up a schedule of meds to give her? I'd look at it for you. I know how exhausting caring for a sick kitty is and that's without the FD. :YMHUG:

Let me know how I can help.