6/20 Zeus PMPS 140, leukeran ? And Sub Q fluids ?

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knolet

knolet

Member Since 2012
6/19 Condo

Morning, ~O)

Zeus didn't eat as well last night before his shot... I tried FF - a couple of flavors, BF, FF appetizer, and a new food. I received the Iams max cal that Marje suggested, it is a weird consistency, reminds me of natural peanut butter, you know how the oil rises to the top and you have to stir it? That's how the food was consistency wise. I tried mixing it with FF, he wouldn't touch it. I tried fortiflora too, but he's never gone crazy for it. After a dip to blue then green, I did get him to eat a 1/2 can of FF at +5 and a little more at +6.

This morning Zeus has a buffet breakfast, first we have FF chunky chicken mixed with a bit of the Iams max cal... Didn't eat much. Then we had BF chicken... Maybe 1/2 of a jar. He is currently sampling FF chunky turkey... 1/4 can. And finally a tsp of HC on top of the FF chunky turkey. The vet said that the Mirtazapine is a good appy stimulant, and he did eat well a few times but I wonder if it doesn't last 3 days even though its only given that often... Or maybe it doesn't start acting right away. I gave him a dose yesterday.

Everything else is good. He went pee and poo this morning, it was a little soft but not too bad.

Have a good day,
Kathie
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

I hope Zeus starts eating better for you soon and the appy stimulant helps. At least he does have interest in food.
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

Sending eating vines to Zeus.

It's been years since I've used Mirtz for J.D. and it did seem to work really well the first day and a half or so.

I hope Zeus is feeling better today.
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

Come on Zeus! Eat those good fuds! Make your momma happy :-D Hope his appy picks up some Kathie. I bet Smokey is enjoying the breffis buffet also.

Hope you have a great day~
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

I've got a picture in my head of Zeus munching all his breffis. I sure hope it translates to Mr. Zeus himself. I'm sending tons of eating vines to him. I thought i read in your condo that someone gave half a dose every day and a half. I wonder if that would make a diff.. since Dyana said it worked for her for about a day and a half.
Many hugs, scritches and be well prayers and vines from us to you. xoxox mary and ollie
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

Nice sunny start for Zeus. Breakfast buffets are not a good way to start your day. Eat your fuds big guy. Have a great day Kathie!
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

How is Zeus doing this evening? I hope he is eating and feeling a lot better.
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

Hi and thanks for checking on us. Zeus didn't have much of an appy tonight either, so we had another buffet spread out all over the house (including my bed). I finally broke out the gravy lovers but only mixed a little in with some other LC. He ate a little. Maybe he ate more than I thought, because his BG doubled in 3 hours. I just gave him a FF appetizer and then went to do something else... When I went to check on him it appears that Smokey pushed him out of the way and was eating the FF appy. Will try again in a bit.

So, I received the Leukeran tonight and it kind of freaked me out. The vet didn't tell me much about it, other than it could help with either the IBD or lymphoma. Big yellow warning on the bag, Chemotherapy drug, use precautions. It's a liquid that we had compounded, and it says to use rubber gloves, and that it can be excreted in saliva (though its rare) and in the feces and urine. What if Smokey steps in it? She doesn't usually use his LB that I know of, and I didn't think that he used hers, although I did catch him urinating in her box the other day. Anyone else use this drug that could share experiences :?:

I also have a question about subq fluids. How often do you do it and how much fluids do you give at a time :?: Zeus had more fluids yesterday, and the vet said not to give fluids daily, but every couple of days. I'm wondering though if he needs more. His gums were not dry... He was like what the heck? Why you stick your fingers in my mouth, sheesh!.

I am exhausted... Can hardly keep my eyes open. Sorry I didn't get to condos tonight. Two nights of not much sleep and the stress of everything. Busy day tomorrow. Have a good night.
 
Generally it's best to give subq fluids more frequently in smaller volumes versus a larger volume given every few days.

MJ
 
((((Kathie))))

I age with MJ. Some vets will tell you to give 150 mls every other day. It's actually better, if you are to give that amount, to give 75mls every day. The most important thing is to be sure he has absorbed all fluids before you give them again. You don't went him to feel squishy anywhere....fluids like to drop from the back to under the front paws or across the chest....and sometimes down the front paws. S check very carefully everywhere.

How much to give? Did your vet tell you what to give every other day or every couple days? Even if you just gave him 50mls every day, it would likely help him. Keep in mind that 5mls = 1 tsp so if you are giving him 50 mls, it's the equivalent of 10 tsp of fluid which is about 2.5 tbsp.

Sorry about the food....that's weird. I have some max cal and it's not like that. It's thicker but not as thick as stirring the natural peanut butter. I'm sorry you spent the money and waited on it. I wonder if you put it in a food processor with some water and thinned it a bit if he'd eat it or you could syringe him with it?
 
You might want to pose a question in Health about Leukeran. The only experience I've had is through a friend who was giving it to her dog. She was just prompt about cleaning up his poos and used gloves and the plastic bag to pick up. I don't think she worried much about the pee, even though she had 2 dogs and a very small yard, but an LB is different. Do you use the clumping kind of litter? Hopefully Zeus likes to cover up which would make it safer if the cats share.

Piling on some more appy vines for Zeus. :YMHUG:
 
Kathie,
I am sorry Zeus isn't eating well yet...
I'm also sending eating vines to Zeus...
 
Thanks everyone, just got up for a quick test, 270 at +7. The vet said to give 150 mls, which is what the tech tried to do the other day except she got almost as much on his fur as she did get under the skin. ;-) That was in the morning, and when I went home at lunch time, the big fluid ball had gone down into his front legs... He did look squishy :lol: wow, Marje thanks for the conversion to tsp and tbsp... Sure does look like more than that (but I've never been good at measuring stuff, so I don't know, lol).

Wendy, thanks for sharing about your friend and the dogs. Zeus does not cover his business, he tries I think but the plastic liner confuses him, and he usually just digs at that. Silly kitty.

BTB for me. Thanks again, I appreciate the advice.
 
I think if he said 150 EOD, you can do 75mls every day as long as the squishies are gone. And if he doesn't mind it.

Well that's pretty sad the that'd vet tech couldn't give squids!
 
Re: 6/20 Zeus AMPS 286

knolet said:
So, I received the Leukeran tonight and it kind of freaked me out. The vet didn't tell me much about it, other than it could help with either the IBD or lymphoma. Big yellow warning on the bag, Chemotherapy drug, use precautions. It's a liquid that we had compounded, and it says to use rubber gloves, and that it can be excreted in saliva (though its rare) and in the feces and urine. What if Smokey steps in it? She doesn't usually use his LB that I know of, and I didn't think that he used hers, although I did catch him urinating in her box the other day. Anyone else use this drug that could share experiences :?:
Click to expand...

I have used Leukeran. My non-diabetic cat, Teddy, was on it for many years. It is a chemotherapy drug, and is used to treat lymphoma and IBD, as you mentioned in your post. I used tablets, and they were supplied in the bag with the big yellow warning on it. Chemotherapy drugs have to be labelled so that both the owner and the veterinary staff, who may be exposed to handling larger amounts of these medications at work, can take safe handling precautions. I was advised to use gloves to handle the medication, as there is a chance that over time you may absorb some of the drug through your skin. When Teddy was taking IV chemo drugs, I was advised to take more precautions with handling his waste, but when he was on Leukeran, I just stayed with my normal routine, which usually meant keeping the litter box scooped and cleaned on a timely basis. I had other cats using the same litter boxes. I think that if you use good hygiene on a regular basis, that you don't have to be concerned about yourself or your other pets. You should definitely check with your vet if you are still concerned about the need to isolate his litter box.

One other thing about the Leukeran is that it may cause some mild inappetance or nausea, depending on the dose you are giving. Keep an eye out for this, and ask your vet about it if you see this as a side effect. It should not, however, make Zeus feel very sick, as we sometimes think about the way chemo drugs affect humans. My cat tolerated this medication very well. Another precaution that my vet followed with Leukeran was to have periodic rechecks of the blood count, just to be sure that the drug was not causing any anemia, which is a rare side effect. Leukeran is a strong drug, but my cat had a very good response to it for his lymphoma, so please don't let it freak you out!
 
Linda, thank you so much for sharing your experience with Leukeran. I do scoop the LB often, each time when I'm home and as soon as I get home, so it sounds like that will be OK. And I do have rubber gloves. Thank you!

Ugh on the inappetance and nausea... We are already dealing with that.

I hope that Zeus will tolerate this drug well. The vet did mention monitoring, rechecks and repeat blood tests.

Thanks again,
Kathie
 
Hi Kathie and Zeus, my name is Thelma and I'm Angel Calistica's mom. Claudia (Rocket's mom) ask me to share with you my experience with Leukeran (Chlorambucil).
My Calistica had IBD or small cell lymphoma. We're not exactly sure which one as they both look similar under the microscope and I only allowed for a needle aspirate biopsy. We decided to treat her as if she had lymphoma because the treatment for both IBD and lymphoma is the same. Calistica also took Prednisolone but she eventually developed diabetes.
I think we all get scared when we hear the word "chemo" because we only know what it does to humans. Cats do quite well on it and in my experience in the IBD groups only very few cats were unable to tolerate it. I thought cats would also go bald but that didn't happen.
I never worried about the litter box. The amount of chemo the cat gets is so tiny that there's probably hardly a trace. It is cleared through the urine though not poop. The reason why they ask you to use gloves is in the event that if you give it to the cat and the cat spits it back out the protective coating can dissolve.
I used to put Calistica's Leukeran and pred in one little gel capsule that way I didn't have to worry about the pill getting wet. Needless to say after a while I didn't use gloves anymore. I was told that leukeran needed to be refrigerated and I found the best price at Target. They always kept it refrigerated.

I was really worried that Calistica would be nauseous but she was just tired for about the 1st week, then slowly she went back to her normal self. During the first month I gave her 1/4 Pepcid AC about 1 hour before her PM meal which was the time when she got her chemo.

Linda mentioned bloodwork. That is very important and you should've had bloodwork done on Zeus prior to starting him on chemo so you have a baseline. A side effect is anemia which is why it is so important to have a baseline. With Calistica we used to test her blood at first every 2 weeks, then we went to once a month for a few months. She eventually started to develop anemia but since the anemia happened gradually her body adjusted which was great. The problem is when you have acute anemia and this is the reason why frequent bloodwork is important.
The Feline Lymphoma group refers to Leukeran as "a life saving drug" and I agree with them.
Anhother thing that we did before the treatment started was an abdominal ultrasound so we could tell how thick her intestines were. Every 6 months there was a new ultrasound. After a year on chemo Calistica's intestines looked like the ones of a normal cat. At that point I chose to stop the chemo because her anemia wasn't getting better. I did keep her on prednisolone.
BTW, Calistica used to get Leukeran every 3 days and her dose was one 2.5mg tablet.

About giving sub-Q fluids. THAT is a scary thing which I had to do myself with my Angel Petuly. She had CRF. I had a vet tech teach me how to do it because it is scary. We are afraid to hurt our babies. I had to change that way of thinking because the cat can sense your nervousness. You have to believe that you're doing it to help your baby not to hurt them. I also paid the vet tech to come to my house so he could supervise my first solo sub-Q administration.
You have to make the fluid time a very pleasant experience. I warmed up towels for kitty to put in her special bed so she could be warm, I also warmed up her fluids. I had a special treat that she only got after her fluids too. You also need to get Terumo 20 gauge Ultra Thin Wall needles. These are the best needles people say because they are thin. Here is a wonderful website which I found extremely helpful

http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/s ... juice.html
 
((((Thelma)))). We've missed you! Hope you are doing well. It's very kind and generous of you to come back and help Kathie.

I have one question that might help Kathie. With CKD cats, you have to stay on top of the anemia. Being proactive is best and using methylB12 in combo with a multi B vitamin can keep the hematocrit above 20% for a long time. (With an HCT or PCV below 20%, you need to seriously think about using an erythropoietin stimulating agent like Aranasp). Gus is starting year four of CKD and using 250mg methyl B12 and 1/10 of a Jarrows BRight multi vitamin bid, his HCT is still 29% even though he is in Stage 4 CKD.

Thelma or Linda...is it possible those would also help Zeus if he takes the leukeran?
 
Hi Marje, thanks for the warm welcome! I hope Gracie is doing well. Ray and I have 3 cats now.
I seriously doubt Methyl B12 could help in this case. There are different root causes for anemia. In the case of Leukeran nothing is really going to help except stopping it which is what I did with Calistica.
You are correct about the need for something like Aranesp if PCV is below 20%. Also, blood transfusions may be recommended once PCV drops below 20%. In this case blood typing is necessary.
If Zeus is CKD then 1/10 of a Jarrows BRight B complex bid is a good thing. Also, CKD cats need extra Omega 3 oils.
 
Dear Kathie and Zeus,
Thinking good thoughts and hoping that the medications and their methods of delivery will go well for you.

Many healing vines and hugs and scritches,

Ella & Rusty

p.s. Wow, what a lot of important information you received from Linda, Thelma, Marje, MJ, et al. This board is really fantastic!
 
That is an interesting question, Marje. Is Zeus a CKD cat? Anemia caused by CKD and anemia caused by a chemotherapy drug would both be non-regenerative anemias, but, as Thelma says, the root causes are different. In a CKD cat, the kidney is not able to produce erythropoietin. Thus, anemia caused by CKD can be treated by an ESA such as Aranesp, which replaces the missing erythropoietin. I may be incorrect here, but I don't think that anemia caused by chemotherapy would be treated by Aranesp or Epogen, as the animal's normal kidney is already producing adequate levels of erythropoeitin. The bone marrow is unable to respond to it. The obvious way to treat anemia due to chemotherapy is, as Thelma says, stopping the drug. This may only need to be done for a short period of time (i.e. weeks) before the hematocrit returns to normal.

If there is a B12 deficiency, again, the cause may be different in the two diseases. In renal disease, the B vitamins may be lost due to polyuria. With lymphoma or IBD, the digestive tract may be unable to absorb B12 effectively. This is one reason, I believe, that IBD kitties may be prescribed cyanocobalamin injections.

I am not familiar with the use of the multivitamins you mention. I am tempted to say that they "wouldn't hurt", however a quick perusal of Tanya's CRF says under the section on methylcobalamin precautions, "I would not give Vitamin B12 to a cat with cancer because cancer cells rely on Vitamin B12 for growth." I don't know Zeus' medical condition, but once one is talking about using a drug such as Leukeran, one must obviously be discussing the pros and cons of all supplements before giving them to the cat. It is great that you bring this up, however, since it is working so well for Gus, and it would be something for Kathie to ask her vet about. It is possible that they would work for Zeus as well; I simply don't know enough about them to really comment.

http://www.felinecrf.org/vitamin_b.htm
 
Hi Thelma,

Thank you so much for taking the time to come back to FDMB and share your experience with me, I can't tell you how much that means to me. Thank you, thank you.

You're right, as soon as I saw "chemo drug" on the bag, it scared me. I thought about all the awful things that happen to humans and I didn't want to put Zeus through any of that. He is a trooper, very mellow, but still I didn't want him to feel worse than he already does. I also worried about my other kitty Smokey, she's old and if she could somehow be affected by the chemo I would feel terrible. I'm so glad that you popped on to share how Calistica did, and am hopeful that Zeus will do as well. That was very encouraging when I read that her intestines went back to that of a normal kitty. Zeus' ultrasound showed thickening of the intestines as well as possible IBD or lymphoma. The U/S doc suggested Leukeran as she said it can help with both. I hope so.

Zeus did have bloodwork about a month ago, and the Vet did say that we would repeat it. I think he wants to give it three weeks on the Leukeran first, he said it takes that long to start working. I'm not sure what he will want to do after that, but I will keep on top of it (I think sometimes I frustrate him with all my questions, LOL).

The Sub-Q fluids... I did it last night, first time, all alone. I had watched it done 3 times at the Vet, and then I watched a Youtube video as well before I started. I was nervous, I didn't want to hurt Zeus, but he again was such a trooper. It wasn't as bad as I had expected it to be, I didn't get any on his fur (unlike the last Vet tech who completely soaked him). I only have a few more needles so thank you for the info. I will order some today.

Thanks again Thelma :-D
 
Marje and Thelma... CKD, is that chronic kidney disease? I didn't really understand all of this "Aranesp if PCV is below 20%. Also, blood transfusions may be recommended once PCV drops below 20%. In this case blood typing is necessary. If Zeus is CKD then 1/10 of a Jarrows BRight B complex bid is a good thing. Also, CKD cats need extra Omega 3 oils." but I want to ask our vet about it. I want to do everything that I can to help Zeus.

I agree Ella (& Rusty) this board and the people here are fantastic! Absolutely wonderful, I don't think I could have made it this far without all of the advice and support that I've received this past year.

Linda, I don't think Zeus is CKD. The vet did not say anything about it, but it's another good conversation for me to have with him. That and the use of other supplements that could help Zeus. Thank you for stopping back in, I really appreciate your help as well. Thank you, thank you.
 
Where in NH are you? I have a lot of leftover/unused supplies from my renal kitties (supplements, phos binder, needles, etc.)

MJ

edit to add: I had one CKD civvie, and another who developed renal issues after starting chemo for lymphoma
 
Kathie

Since Zeus does not have CKD, I'd definitely bring all this discussion on B vitamins to your vet to determine if he could benefit from them or not.

I thought I posted our video on giving fluids? I have to say (if I say so myself :lol: :lol: ), I do think it's one of the better ones. We looked through all of them before we made it and decided there just wasn't enough detail to help people so we tried to get as detailed as we could. I would actually recommend the Terumo UTW 21g needles over the 20g. You can get them very reasonably at thrivingpets.com.

Here's the video on How to Give Subq Fluids at Home

i hope it helps. How is Zeus today?
 
Marje, too funny. This is the video that I watched (and it was GREAT). I did wonder if it was you because the kitty was Gus. I really do think it was great, lots of detail (which I love). It made me feel calm and like I could do it! That's awesome, thank you so much! I loved when you talked about them getting squishy, LOL. Zeus is not squishy today. ;-)

Zeus is doing good this morning. He ate OK this morning, not great but OK. But he did eat another 1/2 can an hour or two later, and he is eating a little more now. He was kneading my arm a little while ago. I love it when he does that.

I'm definitely going to check out the site for the needles. Thanks again.
 
How funny!! I'm glad it helped you :-D :-D I can't believe none of us linked it for you before ohmygod_smile ohmygod_smile

I'm so glad Zeus seems to be better today. I do think the 21g are the best size. I tried the 22g and Gus was super but it took about three times as long and I'm the one that got impatient :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Kathie, CKD is chronic kidney disease. I thought that Zeus was CKD because of the fluids! Sorry!
If Zeus doesn't have kidney disease I wouldn't bother with other vitamins. Why is Zeus getting fluids?

Linda, Aranesp is actually an option when the anemia is caused by chemo. That was one of the choices our vet had given us for Calistica.

You really should be very proud of yourself for doing such a good job with the fluids Kathie! Way to go! You did it without assistance from another human? WOW! I always had to have my husband assist me! LOL

I don't think your other kitty would be affected by the small amount of chemo Zeus is taking. Just make sure you clean the litter box often.
I'm so glad the vet did bloodwork a month ago and intends to do more later on.
 
Hi Thelma,

Zeus has been dehydrated... I do add water to his food, but he hasn't been eating well for some time, and I very rarely see him drinking from his water bowl. Hopefully I won't have to give fluids for long, but I am relieved to know that I can if I have to. Thanks for the congrats :smile:

Kathie
 
I'm glad Zeus is not a CKD kitty! I didn't see Calistica drink water from her bowls for years. We only saw her drink again when she became diabetic. she only ate canned food and we always added a little water to her food so we think that was where she got her water from.
 
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