6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136, +3 105, +4 112, +6 214

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Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360

Hi guys .. I hope jinx cleared his bounce and is thinking about coming down for you today .. have a great day guys!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360

Hi Joe & Jinx - I don't think I've visited you guys before! Jinx is so handsome!! And it does looke like he's working on clearing that bounce - good work, Jinx!

Have a great day!

Amy (& Trixie)
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360

Melissa - unfortunately, I don't think he wants to go down slow today. :-D

Amy - Thanks for visiting! Hope you have a great day as well.

Peter & Devon - he seems to have cleared and I have a feeling he wants to play "how low can you go" today. :-D Little stinker...

Hope you all have a great day!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239

So when he's coming down fast like he has been and is today, is it advised to give LC within a certain BG range to slow him down a bit? Or should I wait until he gets in the 50s to start managing with food?


Thanks, everyone. Will see where's he's at at +3.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239

I think you should try to slow him down a bit with LC. Just experiment and see how it works. We may need to start looking at frontloading Jinx to stop these big drops. I'm glad you got that +2.

I'm out the door to work today. Hope it is a nice, gradual descent for your boy. Have a great day.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239

Hi Joe and Jinx, i don't think i've stopped by Jinx's condo before either, just wanted to stop by and say HI!

That's a nice drop this morning, i hope Jinx comes down for you.

Have a great day!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135

Hi, Tracy! Thanks for stopping by. Hope you have a great day as well!

Looks like Jinx is dive-bombing again today. Gave him about 1TB LC at +2 but he didn't eat it so I just sprinkled it with some dried chicken dust and he gobbled it down. Will check again at +4.

Marje and everyone - We'll see if he slows down a bit with the food I just gave him. But to minimize these dives, please let me know what your thoughts are on front-loading. I'm currently splitting up his four daily meals into halves served 1 hour apart. So I give him half of his morning meal when I administer the insulin and the other half an hour later. I've been doing that to minimize the scarf and barf episodes which seems to be effective. Or, maybe his tummy is just getting used to the raw.

And this is probably wishful thinking but I'm wondering if the loose stools and the off and on flagyl for 2 months were raising his BG levels. And now that his stools have firmed up and he's off the flagyl, maybe he doesn't need as much insulin. Like I said, probably wishful thinking. We'll see when he wants to go into reduction territory again.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135

Good idea t try food earlier to slow things down. We do that w/ Tess. she gets an ounce for preshot, then .35 oz at +3 and +6, but that is because she is on Lev and has a really late nadir. Most beans front load around +1, +2 or +3, you just don't want to feed after nadir unless low.

That said, if Tess is dropping fast I will break up her +2 and +3 mini-meals to slow things down. That way she really doesn't get extra food, just spread out to keep things more even. Make sense?
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4 80

That makes sense, Ann. Thanks. So maybe splitting up his meals between +1,2, and 3 is the way to go? What do you think?

Also, he just tested 80 at +4 so it looks like he may have slowed down a bit but I'm not sure. Will plan on holding off on the LC and testing in 30 unless advised otherwise.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

Hmmm, thats 55 points in less than an hour. I'd give a little LC now to slow things up and test in 30.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

i think the sooner you start to slow things down on the dive days the better. Part of the bounce reaction seems to be from the speed of the drop, not necessarily the amount dropped.

Also if it is looking really fast we tend to add a drop of honer to the LC, before resorting to HC. For Tess that keep her up for 2 hours but doesn't seem to encourage a fast bounce. ECID, though.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

I forgot to add the .25 at the end of the 4 so it was actually an hour. But I'll give some LC now and will definitely check in 30. Thanks, Ann.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

Ann, I'll give the honey a shot on a dive day. And just to be sure I understand how much a drop is... Would you say around 1/4 the size of a pea?
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

Yes, about that. We get those honey "straws" , clip a corner and it is really easy to squeeze a drop out and NO MESS!!! :-D :-D
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

That's a nice slow down. You are close to nadir? I'd test again in 30 to make sure this isn't reflecting the food too much.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

That's a good idea, Ann. I will pick some of those up :-D

Just one more question... In your experience with Tess, when you give her some honey to slow a dive, does it seem like it's prevented her from going as low as she would have? Or is the drop just more gradual? I definitely understand the importance of slowing down a dive. I'm just trying to understand better how you balance managing the curve and safely determining whether they go below 50 and earn a reduction.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

Well, it slows her down and we try to keep her from getting the reduction. Tess has a hard time holding on to reductions. The idea is to do everything we can to stop them from getting the reduction . Eventually though, they will demand it what ever we try, Then the reduction is likely to hold.

The longer we keep them on insulin the more chance the pancreas has to heal. We want it to be as strong as possible before stopping insulin. I know we all want our cats OTJ, but faster is not better!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

Wow, that's breaking a bounce Jinx!


Looks like you are slowing down now, so that's good. :mrgreen: You may still see another bounce from the rapid drop early in the cycle.
 

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Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

Ann, thank-you for explaining that to me. I did not realize that was the approach we should take wrt reductions.

Hi, Anne - yeah he's been doing well at breaking a bounce but I wish he wouldn't do it by taking a nose dive :-D Definitely expecting a bounce tonight but if he does, hopefully it won't be as bad as last nights. Hope you're having a really nice day!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80, +5 75

Ann, thank-you for explaining that to me. I did not realize that was the approach we should take wrt reductions.
Click to expand...

Well, that's what we do because Tess doesn't hold reductions. I know Marje does it w/ Gracie too. How is Jinx about holding reductions/ It may not be necessary to hold him back as much. I'd ask Marje or Libby or Sienne for advice on that.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.2 135, +4.25 80, +5 75, +

I'll ask them but I'm not sure we have enough data yet to say either way.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.2 135, +4.25 80, +5 75, +

Hard nose dive in the beginning but he's leveled off. Just fed first half of afternoon meal.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.2 135, +4.25 80, +5 75, +

Jinx has slowed but still going down. If he is getting a meal there should be a food spike from the food, you may be able to go an hour before testing. Whatever you are comfortable with.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360... +3.2 135, +4.2 80, +5 75, +6 66, +

Not sure what's going on but he threw up his +6 LC meal and just threw up the first half of his +7 meal.

I'm still giving him a little portion of raw along with his old NV canned chicken formula. He's had solid stools and can go for a couple days without throwing up and then there's a day like today.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360... +4.2 80, +5 75, +6 66, +7 75, +8 8

Sorry, I had to go out to water bonsai. The numbers are looking nice. I'm not sure about the throw up, unless it is a food allergy. He is getting the NV Raw Chicken? What flavor on the canned? Sometimes a novel protein like rabbit or duck helps. or does he eat really fast?
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360... +4.2 80, +5 75, +6 66, +7 75, +8 8

He eats the NV canned chicken with Primal raw quail. I'm mixing because I thought I may have gotten him on the raw too fast. It worked for the first couple days but now he's throwing up again. He does eat fast so I'm splitting up each meal one hour apart. But sometimes he throws up after I give him a little snack of raw/canned chicken so I'm not sure what's going on. I'll switch to another raw protein if it continues.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108

Normally I'd be very happy with a 108 PMPS but I can't help but think it's because of his throwing up/lack of food today, which makes me very nervous. I am really, really hoping he's able to hold this evening meal down.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108

What are you feeding him again? And what consistency is it? Chunks? Strips? I don't feed raw because of Cini's throat condition.

By the way, Cini had a PMPS of 101 tonight :mrgreen: Race you to 50! ;-)
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

Hi, Cathy - I'm feeding him Primal raw quail. It comes frozen in pucks that when thawed, have a consistency of canned wet food that has been mixed 50/50 with freeze dried chicken. That's about as best as I can think to describe it right now. :-D He loves the food and it's firmed up his stools after two months of various canned food trials and off/on flagyl. Some days he'll keep it down and others, like today, he'll throw up.

NV Organic chicken seems to be real popular here so I may try that. Might also try another novel protein like duck, rabbit, or venison before I do that, though. Only thing is, I gave him Merrick's Cowboy Cookout which is beef and he threw it up in about 10 different places around the house. So, I'm wondering if it might be better to skip venison for now...

That's great Cini's preshot was 101. But as Jinx's guardian, I'm forbidding him from engaging in any BG races. :-D :-D Because once he gets going, he doesn't know how to put on the brakes. :-D
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx AMPS 360, +2 239, +3.25 135, +4.25 80

Ann & Tess said:
i think the sooner you start to slow things down on the dive days the better. Part of the bounce reaction seems to be from the speed of the drop, not necessarily the amount dropped.

Also if it is looking really fast we tend to add a drop of honer to the LC, before resorting to HC. For Tess that keep her up for 2 hours but doesn't seem to encourage a fast bounce. ECID, though.
Click to expand...


Excellent information and idea to add a drop of honey to the LC to slow down a dive. Thank you, Ann!

Suze
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

Me, too, Joe! I thought honey was a last resort, and never thought of using a teeny drop to slow down a dive.

Let me know how it works for you if Jinx dives before Pumbaa does. :)

I hope Jinx stops barfing, and his numbers slow down tonight so you can get some rest.

Suze
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

Thanks, Suze, I appreciate it. And I'll definitely let you know how the honey works if he dives before Pumbaa :-D I'm very anxious to see how he responds to it...
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

I'd like to weigh in on this adding honey to slow the early drop.

Tess is a long-term diabetic with a history of failed reductions and diving. Ann and John have found what works for her at this stage of her diabetes and that's what Ann was telling you. They have tried many different things. But she said earlier, as I did, to try and slow him down with LC.

Sienne uses honey to slow down Gabby, who is also a diving/bouncing long-term diabetic. She uses it because the HC gravy/food makes Gabby sick.

When we were new, we also tried this approach even though many long-timers and experienced caregivers like Jill and Libby were telling us they did not use karo (I think Jill used it once and wished she hadn't). I spent many an evening grappling with the thought of giving a diabetic sugar intentionally when she was high. In the end, I decided not only did it not work for Gracie, but I didn't want to do it. Do I use karo? Yes...absolutely when she is in the 20s or low 30s and I want her up fast. But if she's high 30s/40s, I use higher low carb unless she is that low and about to onset.

My point is that we are jumping into using karo, honey, etc without giving the LC a chance. Jinx did slow down with the LC and I think before you jump onto the karo/HC bandwagon, you should try to get him on a feeding schedule as Ann discussed and be sure you always get a +2. Try giving the majority of the portions at PS and +1 and see if it helps the diving. ECID....you will have to experiment. You might want to consider a higher low carb but I'd really like to see you give the LC on a schedule a chance before you start using HC/karo.

I also do not think you should be trying to hold him above 50 at this point. Try to slow the dives but you shouldn't work at keeping him from earning reductions yet like Ann, Sienne, and I do. Again, it's the difference between a newly diagnosed cat and long-term diabetics with a history of failed reductions. Feed the curve to try and flatten it but if he earns a reduction, let him have it and see if he can hold it. I worry about the possibility of him getting overdose if you try to keep him from getting reductions. Ann, Sienne, and I and other experienced CGs have the data to justify trying to hold them at a safe dose as long as possible and we know our cats. I'm not sure you're quite there yet.

Questions??? :-D :-D
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

It might be the canned chicken that bothers him, not the raw quail. It isn't uncommon for cats to develop an allergy to chicken. I'd try just feeding the quail w/ out the chicken and see how he does w/ that.

Beef is another big one, which could be why the Merrick made him throw up. But I don't know why that would keep you from trying venison, the allergen wouldn't be the same.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136, +3 105

No one in my household can eat beef. They all yak it up.

The reason why I was asking about the consistency of the food you are feeding is I was wondering if it may be too chunky and it's causing Jinx to vomit? Maybe all those hunks and chunks are hard to digest?

I am so used to making everything Cini eats in to an oatmeal / pudding consistency now that I see less vomiting from him and the other cats when they eat the canned food this way.

And I agree with Gracie, the object of the game is not to keep kitty above 50. It's to let them earn the reductions and guide their pancreas in to an operational state to regulate on their own.

I know 50 is scary. It's new territory and you hear so much about how it's this "magic number" for the threshold to hypoglycemia land. I never wanted to go near 50. I always held at 150, then it was 100, then 75. Once you get the hang of it you won't pull your hair out so much about it. Or you'll buy lots of hats...yeah, hats. ;-)

I think Sienne said at one time "50 means pay attention. 40 means feed HC food now. 30 means get the honey / karo." I've always used that as my guide for Cini.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136, +3 105

Marje - If you strongly feel that it's premature to try honey or Karo at this point, I'll hold off on it. Just keep in mind that as I mentioned to you a few days ago, I have another two weeks or so before I need to go back to work full-time. So I'll be able to give Jinx a +2 and then I need to make a decision on what to give him before I walk out the door that I am confident will keep him within a safe range while I'm gone. If you think trying LC when I notice a dive at +2 is the right plan of attack for now, I'll continue that.

As far as his feeding schedule. I've been feeding him at pre-shot and +1 since I got him on raw last week. If you have any suggestions on how to make changes to that that might mitigate a dive, please let me know. I will always get +2's from now on (unless his pre-shot is really high like the 499 last night; which I'm assuming you have no issues with waiting until +3 or so?).

I will also continue flattening Jinx's curve out at the low #'s but will not try to keep him from earning a reduction. I'm not sure how long it takes to establish whether a cat is good at holding reductions but Jinx seems to be doing well with the recent ones.

I appreciate your message, Marje, and I know you realize my intentions are to do what's best for Jinx and to feel confident that he'll be ok when he's home alone on the days I have to work.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ann - He never puked when he was on canned chicken but he had loose stools. I did feed him only the raw quail for awhile and he did the same thing he's doing now. Go for two days without puking and then have a puke fest on the third day. As far as the venison, my reasoning was that it is similar to beef. But I'm ignorant about what exactly causes a food intolerance/allergy so if you say the allergens are entirely different, I won't rule it out.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136, +3 105

Joe

Because you do have to go back to work soon, now is the perfect time to try and we what works for him. If you figure it out, then you can leave an auto feeder for him set a specific times. If the LC doesn't work, then you'll have to try a different approach.

Actually, I said to feed "the majority" of the portions. I'll give you an example. When Grace was on lantus, she got 1.3 oz of food each cycle. We gave her .5oz at PS and +1....so the majority of the food was early. Then we fed the remainder later in her cycle.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

Marjorie and Gracie said:
I'd like to weigh in on this adding honey to slow the early drop.

Tess is a long-term diabetic with a history of failed reductions and diving. Ann and John have found what works for her at this stage of her diabetes and that's what Ann was telling you. They have tried many different things. But she said earlier, as I did, to try and slow him down with LC.

Sienne uses honey to slow down Gabby, who is also a diving/bouncing long-term diabetic. She uses it because the HC gravy/food makes Gabby sick.

When we were new, we also tried this approach even though many long-timers and experienced caregivers like Jill and Libby were telling us they did not use karo (I think Jill used it once and wished she hadn't). I spent many an evening grappling with the thought of giving a diabetic sugar intentionally when she was high. In the end, I decided not only did it not work for Gracie, but I didn't want to do it. Do I use karo? Yes...absolutely when she is in the 20s or low 30s and I want her up fast. But if she's high 30s/40s, I use higher low carb unless she is that low and about to onset.

My point is that we are jumping into using karo, honey, etc without giving the LC a chance. Jinx did slow down with the LC and I think before you jump onto the karo/HC bandwagon, you should try to get him on a feeding schedule as Ann discussed and be sure you always get a +2. Try giving the majority of the portions at PS and +1 and see if it helps the diving. ECID....you will have to experiment. You might want to consider a higher low carb but I'd really like to see you give the LC on a schedule a chance before you start using HC/karo.

I also do not think you should be trying to hold him above 50 at this point. Try to slow the dives but you shouldn't work at keeping him from earning reductions yet like Ann, Sienne, and I do. Again, it's the difference between a newly diagnosed cat and long-term diabetics with a history of failed reductions. Feed the curve to try and flatten it but if he earns a reduction, let him have it and see if he can hold it. I worry about the possibility of him getting overdose if you try to keep him from getting reductions. Ann, Sienne, and I and other experienced CGs have the data to justify trying to hold them at a safe dose as long as possible and we know our cats. I'm not sure you're quite there yet.

Questions??? :-D :-D
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT post!
lots of good info here, folks.
thank you, marje!
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136, +3 105

Ok, I see what you meant, Marje. Thanks. Hope you get some rest tonight. Good night.
 
Re: 6/20 Jinx PMPS 108, +1.5 136

Marjorie and Gracie said:
I'd like to weigh in on this adding honey to slow the early drop.
Click to expand...

Marjorie, you made some good points about the use of honey to slow a dive.

Pumbaa took a big dive last Friday, and I tried slowing it by feeding him extra protein (sardines packed in water and TJ's Tuna for Cats), but that didn't slow him down. He finally dropped to 38, and I did have to resort to the honey. I would have preferred that he didn't drop down to the 38, and he got his reduction, but now I had to increase his dose last night because his body wasn't really ready for the reduction, I guess.

Suze
 
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