6/20 Heart AMPS 479, PMPS 380 - Time to increase?

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dodgingwrenches

Member Since 2010
Going up again, and he for the first time wasn't interested in food when I tried to give him some :(

AMPS 479
+2 380
+3 387
+4 407
PMPS 380
+2.5 369

Very lethargic, not eating anything. (Ketones were negative last night)

Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17643
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479

Morning! Saw the pix fo how you test Heart--I think you need to put him on the table so you can have him stable, & can you test while holding him like that??--Here's what works for me--I put down some fresh pieces of real chicken--Moonie starts to eat them, I get the lancet & meter ready, go along the outer edge of ear(I have success on the tip of her ear too) & prick gently-(you dont need to press the lancet hard against the ear, as the needle does the work)-then use meter which is real close by-
It is best to try to be quick & do this easy, so they dont get fearful of the whole thing..
And the feeding a treat or chicken wont affect the numbers & Distracts them while you do it..
Believe me, I hold the record for being unable to bg test my cat, so I do speak from experience--
Make it easy for you & Heart, you will get it--
And yesterday's yellows show the dose is working!!
Great Job you are doing! Practice makes purrfect!
Have a great day!
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

Holding him works just fine. I think he likes the attention and being babied actually!

Anyway, I'm working on a curve today. +2 and +3 aren't much better

AMPS 479
+2 380
+3 387

How do I know it's time to increase his dose?
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

If you have a question about dose, like today, do exactly what you did -- post a question.

So here's the scoop. I suspect that some of the less than lovely numbers you're getting are due to shooting different doses at AM and PM. Lantus is an insulin that likes consistency. Because it is a "depot" type of drug, keeping a constant amount in what amounts to storage is important.

It may be possible to raise Heart's dose tonight. However, a great deal can happen over the course of the day. Please try to get at least one more mid-cycle check (a +5 and +7 would be great), and a check at +11 and post with those numbers. Depending on how the cycle goes, you may be able to increase.

If you want more info on dosing, this is the link to the formal version of the Tight Regulation Protocol.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

Excellent link, thanks.

Since his numbers were so much nicer yesterday, and since he's only been on 2 units for four cycles, I think I'll keep him on 2 units for another two cycles in case this increase in BG is one of these panicky liver reactions that article talks about.

Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations.

Agree/disagree?
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

His +4 is 407. I'm discontinuing the curve for now, since I know it's just going up although technically the nadir shouldn't have been reached yet I guess. He is very, very lethargic today. Not at all himself. Just lies around and hangs there, mostly on the floor underneath furniture (and as a healthy alpha male, he used to always be on the high ground where he could keep an eye on everyone else!). I don't want to upset him any further. I will still do the PMPS though. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day! Unfortunately I'll be at work, so won't be able to do any measurements throughout the day. I'll see if I can work from home in the afternoon to get a +5 or +6 reading in.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

There are pros and cons to not changing/changing a dose.

The quote you referenced is what we quasi-humorously refer to as NDW (new dose wonkiness). I don't think that's what you're seeing. What happens is that you raise the dose, expect numbers to drop and instead, they rise. That's not the pattern on Heart's SS.

You are on the early side of raising the dose so it's fine to hold for 6 cycles, especially if you will get PM spot checks. The down side is that Heart is in high numbers. I think he needs more insulin. It's entirely your call when to raise the dose. I think we're all behind you with regard to getting Heart out of the above pink numbers and into a better range.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

When I see the high numbers, my very first thought is test for ketones often, whenever you can. You don't want that kind of problem to compound the situation.

The next thing is to mention that the 12/12 timing is pretty important. If you dicker with the doses, up and then down, and then changing the times, late and then early, there is no way that Heart's body can establish a decent and settled shed.
LANTUS & LEVEMIR – INSULIN DEPOT –AKA- STORAGE SHED

That shed has to be in place at all times, and any change, any change at all, will affect that shed and in turn, distract from treating the FD in the numbers.

You have to have a shed equal to your current dose at all times; it's your spare gas tank. It carries you on the times when you are a wee bit late, but you will have to top it up later.
And while you are topping up the shed, that spare tank, not all of the current dose is going to Heart - only a bit of it is going to Heart because priority is to have that shed filled.
And once it's filled, the whole dose goes to helping Heart.

So, you give 2units and don't see much progress for possibly up to 6cycles, then all of a sudden BOOM, you see movement! What happened there? That shed is filled and Heart got every drop of the dose.

When you go up in dose, you go through the same thing, but not as long. You may see some improvement after just a couple cycles, but there are some kitties who seem to take their sweet time and don't budge till that 6th cycle.

When you decrease, that shed's gotta be drained. If you drop from 2u down to 1.5u, then the shed's gotta dump .5u and so you won't see how the decrease is working right away until the sheds been drained of the excess.

When you give a late shot, it's just like a decrease. Lucky think you have that shed because Heart can use some of that reserve, but keep in mind that the next shot won't all go to Heart. A wee bit of it has to go back into the shed to top it up.

When you give an early shot, the shed and Heart treat it like an increase and so some of the shot goes the shed because your regular tank is not emptied.

And so the balancing act continues. Always watch the shed. Any and all changes are going to cause that NDW and it's never what you expect ... why?

Cuz Heart's a cat and who ever knows about a cat!

Heart's numbers are so high and you likely do need to increase the dose. Be sure to use only one meter so that your numbers are consistent. Since one meter may test higher and another lower, switching between them will present Heart's numbers unfairly.

When you do increase the dose, be sure to stick to the 12/12 and for at least 4-6 cycles, just to give Heart a chance to settle on the dose, fill the shed and see if he likes it or needs more.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

In my opinion, since Heart has been on this dose for 4 cycles, his numbers are still quite high, and you say he is lethargic, I would probably go ahead and increase the dose tonight.

As to how much to increase, can you answer a question for me first? I'm a little confused on your shot times, tell me if this is right:

6/17 PMPS was at +11 (11 hours after the morning shot)
6/18 AMPS was at +12 (12 hours after the evening shot - right?)
6/18 PMPS was at +11 (11 hours after the morning shot)
6/19 AMPS was at +14 (is that right, it was 14 hours after the PM shot?)

were last night and this morning both at +12?

As Gayle mentioned, the time jumping can lead to wonky numbers. If that's what your schedule requires, then we work with it, but if it's possible to even the times out a little that will really help.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

Libby and Lucy said:
In my opinion, since Heart has been on this dose for 4 cycles, his numbers are still quite high, and you say he is lethargic, I would probably go ahead and increase the dose tonight.

As to how much to increase, can you answer a question for me first? I'm a little confused on your shot times, tell me if this is right:

6/17 PMPS was at +11 (11 hours after the morning shot)
6/18 AMPS was at +12 (12 hours after the evening shot - right?)
6/18 PMPS was at +11 (11 hours after the morning shot)
6/19 AMPS was at +14 (is that right, it was 14 hours after the PM shot?)

were last night and this morning both at +12?

As Gayle mentioned, the time jumping can lead to wonky numbers. If that's what your schedule requires, then we work with it, but if it's possible to even the times out a little that will really help.

From what I can recall....

6/17 AM: 7:30, PM: 6:30
6/18 AM: 7:30, PM: 6:45
6/19 AM: 8:30, PM: 8:30
6/20 AM: 8:30, PM tbd. Probably will do it at 8, to smooth the transition to tomorrow's 7:30am time for the work week

I unfortunately do have various commitments throughout the week and the times vary as well, so it will be very difficult for me to always give it to him at the same time in the evening.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

Okay he perked up a little. At 7:45 he even meowed at me in the kitchen. Ate a few bites, but not more. He's perked up a little

I gave him his shot at 8pm (+11.5, in preparation for tomorrow's back to 7:30 weekday morning schedule)

His PMPS was 380 though, better than it's been for hours. It's a little weird. Anyway, I stuck with the 2 units. I'll see how it goes tomorrow morning before increasing.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

can you try to get a before bedtime test in tonite, just so you can see how Heart is dealing with this dose.
It's looking like it is settling so a couple more shots maybe at 2u should let you know more.
 
Re: 6/20 Heart AMPS 479, Time to increase?

Will do! With the new Freestyle tester it's so much easier to test, too. Requires sooo little blood...
 
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