6/17 Mouzer pmbg +77/+4/96/day-3-ns

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Cherryl & Mouzer

Member Since 2017
6/16 Mouzer

ambg +60.5/91/1.5oz lc/bsg 0.3ml
+62.5/+2/104
+64.5/+4/109
+66.5/+6/94
+68/+7.5/1.5oz +2tsp
+68.5/+8/125
+70.5/+10/87

pmbg pmbg +72.5/+12/76/1.5oz+5tsp/bsg 0.3ml
+75/+2.5/91/1.5oz+3tsp/day-3-ns
+77/+4/96
tl fud 2day 6.5oz+3tsp

I know this can all go up at any time, but for now, I am just so pleased and thankful
Here is to Mouzer having another shot free day :coffee:
Hoping he makes it to no shot for pm.

Edit: And Mouzer made it through Day 3 of No Insulin!!! :joyful:
 
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Good morning. I tried to go btb but no luck. Finally just got up and made a cup of coffee. Got a busy day. Errands to run and stepson is coming up to have lunch with dh for father's day.

How you enjoy your day! :bighug:
 
Good morning. I tried to go btb but no luck. Finally just got up and made a cup of coffee. Got a busy day. Errands to run and stepson is coming up to have lunch with dh for father's day.

How you enjoy your day! :bighug:

Morning!! I am supposed to be out of here for a bit haha but havent made it out just yet. I was excited to see Mouzer still with healthy numbers and wanted to get it on the board, just so those who are making decisions can see what is going on and for anyone watching to see too hahaha I got my coffee, which Saturdays is my day I get to wake and have a little coffee before I head in to all my work, so trying to read a little from the alerts to keep up. I hope you have a great busy day hahaha my dh doesnt have a son except for my son haha but my son lives 700 miles north of us, so we dont get to see him. I dont even care about my dh a father's day lolol because on mom's day, he always says, you aint my mom --- and so I always say, well then why do I have to do all of this mothering for you ahhahahaahaa Now I really need to get gone haha Thanks for stopping over and I will be on here a little later to see how Gizmo is doing. I would insert a heart here but there isnt one and I am loving the coffee cup, so this is my heart to you for today heehee :coffee:
 
I don't have any kids except my stepson and my furbaby. My stepson lives about 100 miles south of us so we see him, just not often enough. We are making progress on getting him moved up to Houston proper, hopefully by end of summer or early next year.
 
I don't have any kids except my stepson and my furbaby. My stepson lives about 100 miles south of us so we see him, just not often enough. We are making progress on getting him moved up to Houston proper, hopefully by end of summer or early next year.

Have I left yet? No lololol
I was just looking at the SS to see if I could figure out what StephG was telling me but I cant do what she said haha I will pm Marje later.
I was born on Fort Hood. Mom brought me to Florida, where she was born and raised, when I was three. I was raised in Florida. In my early 20's, my son's dad and I were in the restaurant business, so we had to travel a little. In our travels, we ended up moving to Copperas Cove for two years, and we lived short times in McKinney, Alvin, Lake Jackson and Clute. While living in Copperas Cove, I would go over to Austin to a jazz bar, with some of our employees, from time to time. We had to go to Dallas, Plano, San Antonio and Houston, quite a bit. My son's dad had us go into the frederick's of hollywood store in Houston, in some big mall lolol We left Texas on 1987. And what made me say all that is your mention of 100 miles south of you for your stepson and I was wondering where he lives. OK LOL I am so late today haahhahaa
 
:)

He lives in Lake Jackson. How funny. What a small world. We live in Spring which is north (just) of Houston.

ETA-people don't realize how big (area) Houston actually is.
 
:)

He lives in Lake Jackson. How funny. What a small world. We live in Spring which is north (just) of Houston.

ETA-people don't realize how big (area) Houston actually is.

LOL It took us five hours to get from north houston to south houston one time - due to traffic!! I could not believe that poopy doo haha
Lake Jackson and Clute are so right there, it is like one town. We lived a short bit in Clute and then a short bit in Lake Jackson but it was all one same town to me. We did live in Gulfport MS and Biloxi is like right there with Gulfport, so ya always felt you were in the same town. It is a small world but I found nothing small about Houston hahaha I came back to grab Mouzer's +2 - I was just over at mom's, six miles away. I have to go back over there again. I want to try to get back for a +4, so I am going to get over there and get back again hahaha Oh - I dont know where Spring is - or I didnt notice any signs for it but it could be I just dont remember too haha
 
How often are you feeding Mouzer?

I only see food at amps today.
It's just a thought, but you might want to try dividing his food allowance up and giving meals regularly during the day. It's supposedly easier on the Mr P, and with George I've noticed it helps keep him lower. He went through a phase where he was too lazy to get up for his midnight snacks and that nearly always resulted in higher numbers.

for example.
George get's a main meal at amps and pmps, then he get's snacks every 3 hours. (all through the night, I'm grateful we have an autofeeder LOL)
You could divide his total food allowance into 4 feed 1 portion at ambg and pmbg. then divide the two other portions up to be given as regular snacks midcycle.
eg
If you were giving 12ounces a day
12/4=3
so:
3 ounces at ambg
3 ounces at pmbg
then 1ounce at +3+6+9 (in both cycles) (or 1.5ounces at +4 +8)

Just a thought.
 
How often are you feeding Mouzer?

I only see food at amps today.
It's just a thought, but you might want to try dividing his food allowance up and giving meals regularly during the day. It's supposedly easier on the Mr P, and with George I've noticed it helps keep him lower. He went through a phase where he was too lazy to get up for his midnight snacks and that nearly always resulted in higher numbers.

for example.
George get's a main meal at amps and pmps, then he get's snacks every 3 hours. (all through the night, I'm grateful we have an autofeeder LOL)
You could divide his total food allowance into 4 feed 1 portion at ambg and pmbg. then divide the two other portions up to be given as regular snacks midcycle.
eg
If you were giving 12ounces a day
12/4=3
so:
3 ounces at ambg
3 ounces at pmbg
then 1ounce at +3+6+9 (in both cycles) (or 1.5ounces at +4 +8)

Just a thought.

I have divided it into four mini meals - his gums are hurting. And if he would eat more, I wouldnt deny him food, anyhow, except when we were staying up with him through the greens and I felt bad about doing it. Normally, he can have all he wants. I usually dont deny the stomatitis kitties any food, because they are fortunate when they are able to eat. He wanted to eat. He began to eat. He began going on like stomatitis kitties do and ran away from his food, like they do. So, I got the syringe, helped him eat some, which upset him horribly, he ran away and hid. I left him alone for thirty minutes, then took food back to him and he was able to finish the rest. He hasnt been eating 12 ounces a day. He is in pain.

Right now, Mouzer and Tommy Cat, stomatitis kitties, are not even able to eat soft boiled chicken tenders, due to stomatitis pain. Pate foods hurt them worse than any other food but they are both bad off enough, right now, I will be lucky when they eat anything at all. I was keeping a dry food on hand, they are able to eat for a while longer, after they cant eat pate foods any more, because they swallow it whole, straight down the middle of their mouth, so it doesnt touch their gums, but Mouzer is not to have dry food, so I dont have any dry food that I allow these two to eat and the price is so high, I dont even have the money for it right now.

The dry food I was buying, to keep around for when they hurt like this, is very expensive and small bites, recommended for stomatitis kitties, along with the canned of this brand, but the canned is no nutrients and not to be the only food source, so it is the dry of this brand, they need. I am not sure of the carbs in that particular dry food, but most likely no carbs at all. It is 80% protein and recommended for stomatitis kitties. This pain does not just go away. It has to be taken care of and I dont know what to do with not wanting depo shots given.

I had noticed it was more like eight ounces he is eating now. He only ate 7.5 ounces yesterday. He needs something for stomatitis pain. That is why I have been asking questions, to see if anyone knew something other than the depo and something I dont have to ask the vet for, because they are going to do nothing but the depo for stomatitis. I dont want the vet to give Mouzer that dad-blasted depo shot, that I see was the cause of his diabetes to begin with. They cant eat when they are having this stomatitis pain. It is very sad. My other stomatitis kitty isnt eating at all, right now. And he is hurting so bad, he is hiding today. I will be making broth for him and Mouzer now. I am hoping what I have ordered will help, otherwise, it is depo shots and diabetes.

This is what they were able to eat but I dont have the money for it
Applaws Cat 80 Chicken 15.4lb Duck Food Price: $83.60
 
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Wow. This is exciting to watch! Go Mouzer!:cat:

Mouzer is doing well with the lower numbers but his stomatitis has worsened and so he isnt eating like he should be. I am afraid this will cause the numbers to go up eventually, due to lack of food. I hate feline stomatitis even more than I hate diabetes. It has cost me thousands of dollars since 2014 :(
 
:bighug::bighug::bighug:

I am so sorry the stomatitis is making him not want to eat. You are doing a fantastic job taking care of him. He is lucky to have you as his bean.
 
:bighug::bighug::bighug:

I am so sorry the stomatitis is making him not want to eat. You are doing a fantastic job taking care of him. He is lucky to have you as his bean.

The vet we did have kept telling me the stomatitis kitties are lucky to have me because he didnt know many people who would live in the vet's office, paying out the kind of money this takes, to keep them eating - It has been anywhere from $100 to $400 a month for one stomatitis kitty, since 2014, just to keep him able to eat. Then Mouzer's stomatitis starting acting up, August of 2016 - And his hasnt been so bad, like the other one, but he has not had pain enough to keep him from eating completely, since September of 2016 and he is now in pain and not wanting that pate in his mouth, nor the boiled chicken breast. They are both in bad pain now and wont eat! Mouzer is trying to eat but he just cant eat as much - he tries but it hurts, so he stops :(
I know the one who has had this going on since 2014 is lucky to have me because he has been a pricey kitty - Mouzer - I dont know how lucky he is - I am so in debt at this point, taking care of their expensive needs is being very stressful due to lack of money. I just keep putting us deeper into debt over them but it is going to have to stop. It should have stopped with Mouzer but my heart didnt let it stop. We are not too far off from losing our home over these animals. It is just sad and it keeps my heart in pain :(
 
Cherryl

So glad to see Mouzer cruising along but also so sad to hear his stomatitis is causing him a lot of pain. I like Tricia's idea of liquefying the food a bit more but I have also found that you are on top of a lot of techniques likes this.

Yes, when you have time, just send me a PM. Once I get editing rights from you, I can fix the SS in two shakes of a Mouzer tail
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Cherryl, have you applied to DCIN for help? @Chris & China works with them and she can probably advise you on how to do it.

@Vyktors Mum had a kitty with Stomatitis. She lives in Australia, so she might not be able to recommend foods, but she might have some other pointers for you.

Our income isnt the issue - it is the many animals taking all of the income lolol We dont qualify for financial help.
The food recommended for feline stomatitis kitties is out of the UK - But the dry is the only thing that they would be able to eat of it right now and even that becomes impossible, eventually, then I have to go to broth.

The pates hurt them real bad because it is too smooth and gets all into their gums and I can see them trying to get it unstuck from their painful gums and it really is a painful looking sight to watch. Tommy Cat wont even touch the pate food because he has such a bad issue with it.

Applaws canned chicken breast is shredded chicken and my Tommy Cat eats it until his mouth gets too painful for the shreds to touch it, then he eats the Applaws dry, taking it right down the middle of his mouth, so it doesnt touch his gums, but eventually, that wont even work. Mouzer wont eat the Applaws canned at all, for whatever reason - it is all natural, real chicken breast.
He would take the dry into his mouth, until it gets too painful

The Applaws food is woefully expensive and right now the cheapest bag I see is a under 16lb bag for $80+ and I dont have it right now. I went ahead and ordered some Science Diet Dry - small kibble - I am hoping they will be able to eat it. I dont like Science Diet but it is the only one I have found with such small kibble in it.

Something has to be done about the pain or they wont be able to eat anything at all, eventually - so I need someone who might have found something for this horrible pain they get into.
I have tried a lot of things but so far none of it has worked. Stomatitis is evil.
 
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What if you made the food more soup like (using a paté)? Do you have pain meds for him?

So far, what Mouzer is able to eat of the pate, I do make it real soupy, he likes it soupy, but that only works for a while. Just since we went through the low greens and staying up all night, he has gradually gotten more painful. They will eat fine and then all of the sudden the pain flares up out of nowhere, so they drop off on food intake because they dont want it in their mouths.

I am just sick of so much money going to waste, trying everything to find out it doesnt work and that is how they end up at the vets getting those depo shots. I do not want Mouzer to get one more of those shots - he cant, he just cant. And I hate that my Tommy Cat has had to live on those shots, knowing they are slowly killing him.
I have ordered some stuff that should be here Tuesday, I think by then, to try and hope it helps. I have some Oratene Veterinarian Antiseptic Oral Gel and V Oratene Maintenance Oral Gel but they are not working now. They only work when the pain is early on but when the pain gets bad, this doesnt work for them.
 
Cherryl

So glad to see Mouzer cruising along but also so sad to hear his stomatitis is causing him a lot of pain. I like Tricia's idea of liquefying the food a bit more but I have also found that you are on top of a lot of techniques likes this.

Yes, when you have time, just send me a PM. Once I get editing rights from you, I can fix the SS in two shakes of a Mouzer tail View attachment 29098View attachment 29098View attachment 29098View attachment 29098

Yes - I do already make the pate soupy for Mouzer but we are now at that point where that is even hurting -- just the food particles passing into the mouth and getting on the gums. At times, and this is what happened earlier today, when he ran and hid --- as the pate particles get into the mouth and spread onto the gums, they start pawing at their mouth, as if to try removing this from their gums, and it is a horrible sight to watch - because you can see they have pain and they are trying so hard to get that food off of their gums and they just make it look like a total horror scene the way they do with it.

I sent pm - I almost forgot about it because I have actually chased Mouzer around with the food today - because he only ate 7.5 ounces yesterday, so today I was trying to get him to eat more.
I am lucky so far, he has been able to get some eaten but for now it is only at five ounces for today and I am hoping I can get him to eat more in a few hours.
 
Yes - I do already make the pate soupy for Mouzer but we are now at that point where that is even hurting -- just the food particles passing into the mouth and getting on the gums. At times, and this is what happened earlier today, when he ran and hid --- as the pate particles get into the mouth and spread onto the gums, they start pawing at their mouth, as if to try removing this from their gums, and it is a horrible sight to watch - because you can see they have pain and they are trying so hard to get that food off of their gums and they just make it look like a total horror scene the way they do with it.

I sent pm - I almost forgot about it becuase I have actually chased Mouzer around with the food today - because he only ate 7.5 ounces yesterday, so today I was trying to get him to eat more. I am lucky so far, he has been able to get some eaten but for now it is only at five ounces for today and I am hoping I can get him to eat more in a few hours.
Poor baby :arghh: I'm sure it is very hard to watch.

I'll check my PMs.
 
I have a list of things to get to try to help the stomatitis kitties but I am not finding all I need and I am a little concerned because zinc is one of those things to help with sore gums and it says 5mg to 15mg a day ... but I have read that zinc is good but also dangerous, so I am not sure if I should try it.

Also, I need Vitamin E 50 IU and I cant find 50 IU - I see 400 IU, I think I saw a 200 IU, and then there are the thousand IU's, but I cant find 50 IU!

Here is the list of stuff to use and I will place link to where I got this list. I have had this list for a long time but not being able to find all of the stuff, I havent bought anything but the B Complex!
http://www.petremedycharts.com/Learning Center/Nutrition/page159/page159.html

vitamin B complex - have this

Acidophilus - Found this one but I read an amazon review said to order from the company site because it must be kept cold and I do see it on the company site, so able to get it but have not gotten it because I would like to get all of everything together and use together

Vitamin E: cats: 50 IU, daily - Already said, cant find any darn Vitamin E 50 IU

Vitamin A - so far have not found any 2000 to 5000 mg but I get tired of looking - it may be out there but I get a headache from so much searching

Zinc: 5 to 15 mg daily. This is especially helpful for inflamed, red, sore gums - This I am scared of but if you all know it would be ok - I want to try this

Alfalfa tablets or Bone meal - did not look for this after my many long hours looking for the Vitamin E 50 IU and the Vitamin a with the mg stated - headache ended search

Kelp or Dulce Powder - not yet searched for

C0-Enzyme Q10 - already been using this since 2014 and it has not done one darn thing to help at all whatsoever

Pancreatic Enzymes - not yet searched

The not yet searched is due to - if I cant get it all together, I get sick of searching lol
 
We just lost power. I will try and help you tomorrow.

It is 92* and if we dont get power soon we are going to have to do some quick planning.

Need to conserve phone battery.
 
Poor, poor babies :arghh:.

Have you considered feeding tubes?

I see this video - it appears the food is drawn up through a syringe and this pate here doesnt go into the syringe well. I would need a food that would do that... that is if I would even do this.
I am not understanding where the food is going into the cat ... And I dont know that I could stand doing this... the cat looks miserable and if it comes to this, it is time to put them to sleep.
I dont think I am putting these through this. I dont like how this even looks... weighing quality of life vs quantity of life, when I speak this way.

I am having to try hard to find something for the pain or it will lead to diabetes, due to depo medrol shots, or putting them to sleep, because they cant eat due to the pain and if I cant help their pain, even if they got food into them, they are in constant pain and you can see it in their faces when the pain gets horrible and they go into hiding. I have tried so hard, not wanting to put Tommy Cat to sleep, and I am grasping at straws, trying to find a way to help his pain without depo.

Tommy Cat is in that pain already right now, where he looks miserable and runs into hiding. Tommy Cat has an appt for that depo shot - June 27th - I am going to try a product first, when it arrives --- I cant use the product with steroids, so I dont have much time to find out if it will work - it will need to work fast or Tommy Cat will go on in this horrible pain, waiting the time out where depo can be given - 14 days after not having this product I am going to try.

 
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We just lost power. I will try and help you tomorrow.

It is 92* and if we dont get power soon we are going to have to do some quick planning.

Need to conserve phone battery.

I understand power loss all to well lolol And it is too hot for power loss!
When you get back, look at the post with video to feeding tube - I dont think I will take it this far.
 
Have you tried running the pate through a blender. It would make it smoother.

I havent yet. My issue is, even if I am able to make it where I can syringe feed them.... they hate it, they are unhappy and miserable doing it and this does not fix the constant pain they are in.
It is only to help them eat, so to stay alive while they remain in horrible pain. I have to find something for this pain. They cant live in this horrible pain. It is terrible pain.
 
I understand that and wish I knew of something to help with the pain. I was just thinking if it was a smoother consistency it would be easier for them to eat on their own or be syringe fed until you find something for the pain.:bighug:

I will dig out the blender lol Mouzer, it might work for. Tommy Cat, he cant even eat pate at all - he needs no consistency - pate is still grainy, even if blended, there will be those fine grains.
His stomatitis is so bad. I love these cats so much and the very thought of having to put them to sleep over this causes me to cry - I cry before it is even done - I cant stand thinking about it.
I have put so much money into keeping them alive because I just cant think of putting them to sleep over this. These depo shots are going to bring death soon enough - I wish someone had the answer for this. I hate stomatitis! It is worse than diabetes, really :(
 
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Do you have a 24 hour ER Vet? If so call and ask if they have Royal Canin Recovery RS or Iams Maxcal. Both these are high in calories but made for syringe feeding.

Do you gave the larger feeding syringes?

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B010BWOOXA/_encoding=UTF8?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

The feeding tube is placed by the vet through the nose into the stomach. The food is syringed into tube and goes straight into stomach. This has saved many, many kitties.
 
I will dig out the blender lol Mouzer, it might work for. Tommy Cat, he cant even eat pate at all - he needs no consistency - pate is still grainy, even if blended, there will be those fine grains.
Cherryl, if you don't add water to creamy pates like Wellness Turkey or Chicken prior to blending, the consistency becomes almost like whip cream. Kitty can lick and swallow without the food getting stuck around their teeth. If you don't have Wellness, try it with whatever you do have.

I wrote this post a few years ago: Syringe/Assisted Feeding (Video and Tips). It describes a slightly different technique in that you don't add water to the food when blending. The "whipped cream" like mixture is very easy for kitty to eat off your hand or finger or on a plate held up to their mouth. It's great for kitties who hate to have a syringe put into their mouth!

Maybe this method will help with Tommy Cat and Mouzer!
 
Do you have a 24 hour ER Vet? If so call and ask if they have Royal Canin Recovery RS or Iams Maxcal. Both these are high in calories but made for syringe feeding.

Do you gave the larger feeding syringes?

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B010BWOOXA/_encoding=UTF8?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

The feeding tube is placed by the vet through the nose into the stomach. The food is syringed into tube and goes straight into stomach. This has saved many, many kitties.

ER vet is 20 miles from me and driving into Tampa, of which I dont do in the daytime, I am not doing it at night lolol I aint breaking down in the middle of kill town. I dont have the larger tubes and they are not going to let me syringe feed them lolol And I could not afford to do that with a feeding tube if I would even consider doing that with a feeding tube. I couldnt even begin to imagine what these vets would charge me to do that. But I aint doin that lololol Watching it on video was bad enough but your description of what the vet will do makes it even worse lolololololol And I cant afford that to be done lol :D
 
My civvie Kisa had a feeding tube. It was in his neck and I syringed Hill's a/d into it, mixed with a little water. There is another cat here that had a feeding tube for a while and recovered so it was removed. I can't recall who it was.

@Marje and Gracie might know about the Zinc. She's an encyclopedia on supplements.

I wonder if a compounding pharmacy could make you 50iu vitamin E caplets?

I have never seen Young Again Zero Carb dry food in person, so don't know the size, but some people here feed it. Maybe someone who is familiar with it could weigh in on how big the nuggets are. If they are small, maybe that would be a good alternative for Mouzer.
 
Cherryl, if you don't add water to creamy pates like Wellness Turkey or Chicken prior to blending, the consistency becomes almost like whip cream. Kitty can lick and swallow without the food getting stuck around their teeth. If you don't have Wellness, try it with whatever you do have.

I wrote this post a few years ago: Syringe/Assisted Feeding (Video and Tips). It describes a slightly different technique in that you don't add water to the food when blending. The "whipped cream" like mixture is very easy for kitty to eat off your hand or finger or on a plate held up to their mouth. It's great for kitties who hate to have a syringe put into their mouth!

Maybe this method will help with Tommy Cat and Mouzer!

So do not add water - I will try that! And I will read this link you gave too. I hope this would help. Thank you! I have some Candidae canned kitty food that is creamier than the FF and Sheba but I dont know what the carbs are - I have to go check and see if it is on the list maybe.
 
Would Buprenorphine help the pain? If it would and your vet won't prescribe it, perhaps you could find a vet that would.

It has been mentioned but the vets near me are only going to do depo medrol. I will ask the vet I have now but she is so adamant about depo not being any cause of diabetes, she is just going to want to do her killer depo shot. I am not one who will drive miles and miles and miles in search for a vet. Where I go is far enough away from me - 20 minute drive - that is far enough.
 
Most of the Candidae are LC. If it is the grain free line, they are from 1- 5 %. Sheba Perfect Portions are 3%.

I havent seen what the sheba perfect portions food looks like to know if it is more creamy. The Candidae is creamy and the ff and sheba pate is grainy - but I have never seen the perfect portions so I can compare.
 
Cherryl, if you don't add water to creamy pates like Wellness Turkey or Chicken prior to blending, the consistency becomes almost like whip cream. Kitty can lick and swallow without the food getting stuck around their teeth. If you don't have Wellness, try it with whatever you do have.

I wrote this post a few years ago: Syringe/Assisted Feeding (Video and Tips). It describes a slightly different technique in that you don't add water to the food when blending. The "whipped cream" like mixture is very easy for kitty to eat off your hand or finger or on a plate held up to their mouth. It's great for kitties who hate to have a syringe put into their mouth!

Maybe this method will help with Tommy Cat and Mouzer!

Well - I watched the video and I see one issue - kitty cant have anything to the side of the mouth - the stomatitis runs lined along teeth in gums all down each side and back of the mouth, so this will cause them pain and - I dont know yet how Mouzer would do with the syringe being placed there but I know Tommy Cat - he will go wild, insane, and he will haul butt lol there will be no control of this. Tommy Cat goes insane if you have to look in his mouth and he is in pain, when getting near to that area of the mouth and Mouzer wont let you get much near that area either. Their mouth hurts so bad, nothing can touch it. So, I am not sure if this can be done with these kitties. I will try but I do see that being a major issue with pain. I will try the finger eating for them to lick off of finger first, see if that works. And try making it creamy and on their dish and see if they will just lap it up maybe. I will try anything before the syringe because that plastic is going to be painful for them. But if worse comes to worse, I will give the syringe a try and see if by chance they would do it but man oh man I cant see Tommy Cat doing this with a syringe - his mouth hurts really bad and I am not so sure about Mouzer either.
 
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