Cherryl & Mouzer
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+7 80
6/14 Mouzer pmps +11 51
- Thread starter Cherryl & Mouzer
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Very good and no food since 5.5.
You could feed him a couple tsp of low carb only. I'm not sure how long you want to be up.
You could feed him a couple tsp of low carb only. I'm not sure how long you want to be up.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
This + 7 80 - do you think I can go another hour, instead of 30 - or will the juice from hc be wearing off at +7.5 from the +5.5 and I should test at +7.5?
And I still havent picked up enough to know if I am shooting through a bounce - he was 351 this morning, morning after shooting through bounce - when shooting through a bounce, he was 377 - so how do I know what is a bounce hahaha I will shoot through it but I cant determine what is the bounce to shoot through.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
Oh Ok! I will wait for an hour, if you think he wouldnt drop big between now and then.
And I do have that post up there asking about shooting through a bounce.
I'd try and go an hour.
There's no hard and fast rule about what number would trigger you to shoot through the bounce. For some cats, the CG might know enough and the cat might typically be more in normal numbers that they would shoot through the bounce at, for example, 150 (because that might be a bounce for some cats).
If you were concerned he might come back down quickly in the morning, you could decide that for anything over 300, you would,shoot through the bounce. But you'd have to be attentive. If you have something to do tomorrow, use a higher number or just give the reduction.
Cherryl & Mouzer
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I can be attentive tomorrow - I already spoke with my cousin and tomorrow is arranged. I will shoot through the bounce if he is over 300 - he has shown two days in a row to come down quickly from upper 300's. If under 300, I could only wish, I will take the reduction then - I would love to see him wake up in yellow, at least, but I dont know if that will come at this time. It is tomorrow night, I really need to get to bed, so I can tend to things on Friday - SO, if I do shoot through a bounce (over 300 bg) in the am, I will take the reduction for pm. For now, Mouzers bounce is upper pink, as far as I can tell hahaha
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Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
@Marje and Gracie
I have to ask...
Yesterday, I shot thru bounce of 377 with 1.25u
Today, I shot at 351 with 1.0u
Does this mean Mouzer is bouncing over night, each night?
Are these lows to the highs, all considered bouncing?
LOL I quoted my own quote in this one up there
Dear Diary - CG g2gp
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Cherryl
I'm going to leave the info about food management for you to read when you have time.
First, not all cats need the curve managed with food. The ones that typically do are the ones that like to dive and bounce or ones that are really carb sensitive. What do we expect when we manage the curve with food (i.e. what is the goal?):
manage the curve with food -----> flatten the curve -------> adjust the dose (if necessary)
Managing the curve with food often results in flattening the curve at higher numbers. This allows you to then safely get more insulin in the kitty. Rather than recreate a discussion on managing the curve with food, I’m just going to link an excellent one: Managing the Curve with Food and scroll down to post #15 (see posts numbers in a condo in the bottom right corner).
Here are a few things you need to know about Mouzer to effectively manage his curve with food:
I’ve dumped a lot of info on you above plus what is in the post I linked. When you have a chance to read through it, please let me know what makes sense, what doesn’t, what questions you have. Sound good? As you absorb and understand that, I can post more info on what happens when you get the cycle flattened.
I'm going to leave the info about food management for you to read when you have time.
First, not all cats need the curve managed with food. The ones that typically do are the ones that like to dive and bounce or ones that are really carb sensitive. What do we expect when we manage the curve with food (i.e. what is the goal?):
manage the curve with food -----> flatten the curve -------> adjust the dose (if necessary)
Managing the curve with food often results in flattening the curve at higher numbers. This allows you to then safely get more insulin in the kitty. Rather than recreate a discussion on managing the curve with food, I’m just going to link an excellent one: Managing the Curve with Food and scroll down to post #15 (see posts numbers in a condo in the bottom right corner).
Here are a few things you need to know about Mouzer to effectively manage his curve with food:
- when is his onset, nadir, and what is his duration (you can review these terms at New to the Group Sticky. If you need any further explanation of these terms, please let me know).
- does he get any carryover or overlap (also in the New to the Group sticky)
- how does Mouzer react to different %carbs of food and does he react differently during the cycle (i.e. early as opposed to late)
- consistency helps; I’d try to find a feeding plan that works every cycle and remember it can take time to see results so be patient
- The goal is to be able to feed his LC food as much as possible to manage the curve (see caveats below)
- feeding after nadir puts the brakes on the action of the insulin which results, often, in a shorter duration, which (in turn) means the PS will be higher
- bounces can be caused by low numbers but also by big drops (in fact, my girl always bounced harder from a big drop than a low number)
- it helps to test a little more early in the cycle on the cycles you are home for a short time so you can find out when he dives. Is it always, for example, at +2? Does it change? Does he only do it on a bounce clearing cycle?
- don’t assume that he will drop the same mg/dL each hour; in other words, if you test at +2 and he’s down 100 from PS, don’t assume he came down at a steady rate of 50 mg/dL an hour; he might have dropped 30 mg/dL to +1 and 70 to +2
- Determine how many calories a day he needs to maintain his weight, if he's at a good one, and then determine how much food that is in ounces
- Divide the total ounces for the day by two and feed half in the morning and feed the other half in the evening cycle, dividing each into four minimeals
- because cats that dive, typically do so early in the cycle (+1, +2, +3), I’d front load the cycle at AMPS and +1 to start and then see how you need to adjust it. As an example, if you feed a total of 8 oz a day, then you would feed 4 oz each cycle. Breaking it down into four minimeals, you might feed 1.5 oz at AMPS and +1 and then 0.5 oz at +2 and +3. That's just an example for illustration purposes but you get the idea.
- Keep track of what you feed when, how much, how many carbs and if you put it in the remarks on his SS, it also helps us.
- if he gets hungry later in the cycle, leave him LC freeze dried treats like chicken; these usually will not impact the BG when fed after nadir; just be sure you don’t go overboard because they are used as a snack and should not be a meal
- on cycles when you are home, I’d try and test as much at PS, +1, +2, and +3 for several cycles (especially if it looks like he’s coming down instead of going up) and see if you can catch when he drops. Also, does he get a food spike at +1? All of the time? Some of the time? Never?
- as you do these tests from above and you see him start to drop, decide what food is best to control the drop. Remember that the amount of drop and how significant it is depends on the cat. With my Gracie when I knew she was going to come down fast early and I checked hourly, if she had one test that was 50 mg/dL less than the hour before, I applied the brakes with 10-12% but that was for her. And it also depends on where they start from......the higher they start, the bigger the potential drop. A cat that starts at 300 has a lot more room to drop than a cat that starts at 100 (i.e. starting at 300, they could even drop 100 in one hour whereas the cat starting at 100 might just drop 40 in one hour).
- you might see some members tell you to not use HC unless he’s below 50 mg/dL. I, personally, disagree specifically if it’s early in the cycle and he’s dropping fast. If you know how much of a drop will cause a bounce in Mouzer, use the carbs you need to slow him down but not send him back up or demolish his duration. This is a tough one to figure out but if you know how carb sensitive he is, it can become a fine art to know how to balance the carbs with the action of the insulin. If you feed an early drop with MC or HC to slow him down and then he shoots back up fast ( e.g. Blue to pink in 1.5 hours), it’s not a bounce starting....it’s his duration being nipped by the carbs. A bounce might start on top of the lack of duration, though. Don’t worry if this happens at first....it’s a learning curve. All data is good.
- once you figure out a feeding schedule and have gathered the data from above, I would religiously get a +2 every single cycle that you are home; you can get so much info about the cycle with a +2
- if the +2 is more than meter variance higher than the PS, it’s likely to be a quiet cycle
- if the +2 is about the same or within meter variance of the PS, it’s likely to be an active cycle with onset at +2/+3
- if the +2 is more than meter variance below the PS, it’s most likely going to be a very active cycle
I’ve dumped a lot of info on you above plus what is in the post I linked. When you have a chance to read through it, please let me know what makes sense, what doesn’t, what questions you have. Sound good? As you absorb and understand that, I can post more info on what happens when you get the cycle flattened.
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Please be sure and read the long post I left you above when you have time tomorrow.@Marje and Gracie
I have to ask...
Yesterday, I shot thru bounce of 377 with 1.25u
Today, I shot at 351 with 1.0u
Does this mean Mouzer is bouncing over night, each night?
Are these lows to the highs, all considered bouncing?
LOL I quoted my own quote in this one up there
Dear Diary - CG g2gp
Yes, he has been bouncing overnight but he might not do that every night. Also, some cats will go lower at night for a while and then go lower during the day for a while. Or both. Or neither. The point is that, until they are well regulated, cycles change.
And yes, the lows to highs you've been seeing are bounces.
How are you doing and are you feeling comfortable on your own now? It's almost 30 mins past my bedtime and I have to be early tomorrow if you think you are ok.
Meter + Food = you in control
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
Please be sure and read the long post I left you above when you have time tomorrow.
Yes, he has been bouncing overnight but he might not do that every night. Also, some cats will go lower at night for a while and then go lower during the day for a while. Or both. Or neither. The point is that, until they are well regulated, cycles change.
And yes, the lows to highs you've been seeing are bounces.
How are you doing and are you feeling comfortable on your own now? It's almost 30 mins past my bedtime and I have to be early tomorrow if you think you are ok.
Meter + Food = you in control
+8 84
I feel ok and good on my own now - If anything crazy took place, I would put up a question or 911 if I thought that crazy, so you get your rest and thank you so much for all of this information. I have read the post but am going back to read tomorrow, as I pass time on Mouzer hahaha
I do have one thing already...
I had bought some of those dried chickent treats but I was not thinking about Mouzer's stomatitis and he cant eat them, they are too hard.
Do you have a soft food suggestion in the way of treat? Would cooked white meat chicken breast be such a treat? Or is that with no carb at all?
Chris & China (GA)
Very Active Member
Yes....China's "pokey treat" for about the first 6 months was just plain baked chicken. I'd get it on sale, back one piece and freeze the rest. Once baked, I'd chop it into bite size pieces ....enough for 3 days or so and freeze the rest
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
Thank You!! I have used white meat chicken breast for Mouzer in past, when he couldnt even eat the pate.
I also use it for my other stomatitis kitty, when he gets near depo shot time and cant eat his food.
They seem to be able to eat the chicken - or make themselves eat it because they love it hahaha
Yes, like Chris, I also fed Gracie chicken as a LC treat. I would buy the breast tenders because they were small, freeze them, and then take one out at a time, boil it, and then keep it in a glass jar in the frig. She would get a little as a snack each cycle.
I'm off to dreamland where I can visit with my sweet baby girl.
You are doing super and so is Mouzer. Sleep well when you get to bed.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
Okie Dokie again haha
Sleep well and tell sweet baby girl hello from me and Mouzer...
I am not sure when I will get to sleep - that depends on Mouzer's amps hahaha
And even if he doesnt go above 300 and I shoot 0.75u, I am going to be monitoring, at least long enough to see what it does, so I can know if I need to do a full day monitor or if I get a break in the day - or have to wait for pm haha
Night Night To You!
Gill & George
Very Active Member
Great Job Cheryl.
Sorry I wasn't about, had a busy day, was on line shortly before your pmps, (in bed with my tablet), wrote a post but wifi conked out, DH was sound asleep didn't won't to wake him with me rattling about trying to get the dam thing working, so annoying.
I'm glad you shot, that was a good move, glad you had some company yesterday to with Mandy, Jill and Marje.
I'll try to look out for your amps in the morning.
Hope you get some sleep.
Sorry I wasn't about, had a busy day, was on line shortly before your pmps, (in bed with my tablet), wrote a post but wifi conked out, DH was sound asleep didn't won't to wake him with me rattling about trying to get the dam thing working, so annoying.
I'm glad you shot, that was a good move, glad you had some company yesterday to with Mandy, Jill and Marje.
I'll try to look out for your amps in the morning.
Hope you get some sleep.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
+9 74
LOL Is Mouzer going to even need an am shot haha
LOL Is Mouzer going to even need an am shot haha
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
I do not see sleep to come haha I have to wake up in 30 mins LOLOL
Look at Mouzer +9 74
Is he even going to need an am shot?
Where is the darn bounce time hahaha What in the heck does he do? +11.98 jump from blues and greens to upper pinks hahaha
And Marje had once said, there could have been blues in the night but I had no data, so that could not be confirmed..... He may very well did have blues, when I was sleeping haha
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Gill & George
Very Active Member
Oh boy! I think he is just loving the attention
Some cat's experience a second dip at around this point, that might be what you are seeing. (referred to as the double dip). Then they pop up for the next preshot.
He's pretty flat anyways, don't think you have anything to worry about. You could give him a little LC snack if you want or just leave well alone at this point.
Some cat's experience a second dip at around this point, that might be what you are seeing. (referred to as the double dip). Then they pop up for the next preshot.
He's pretty flat anyways, don't think you have anything to worry about. You could give him a little LC snack if you want or just leave well alone at this point.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
Oh boy! I think he is just loving the attention
Some cat's experience a second dip at around this point, that might be what you are seeing. (referred to as the double dip). Then they pop up for the next preshot.
He's pretty flat anyways, don't think you have anything to worry about. You could give him a little LC snack if you want or just leave well alone at this point.
I was hoping to leave it alone and see when he comes up -
I was trying to determine if much difference with 84 and 74 - as in can I wait another hour before test or is it time to go back to the half hour.
Gill & George
Very Active Member
Frome the new to the group sticky
from the new to the group sticky
+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. Onset begins around +2 for most cats. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar OR lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Often lower than the PreShot number.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.
I think you are fine to wait an hour, if that's what you want to do. I also think it fine not to give him any food. That 74 is within meter variance of 20 %. So he's pretty flat.
from the new to the group sticky
+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. Onset begins around +2 for most cats. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar OR lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Often lower than the PreShot number.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.
Gill & George
Very Active Member
With the double dip, they don't dip as far as they did with the actual nadir, so you don't need to worry about him dropping too low.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
OH! I will save this stuff! LOLOL This is all some good stuff put to me tonight and I know I have seen it in the stickies but I have read so many stickies and it gets hard to remember specific things - having it pointed out in sectional post - I clip it and make note!
So, +9 - Mouser is actually doing another dip - instead of +11 --- OR more dipping to come?
Gill & George
Very Active Member
I've got some gardening chores to do, I'll be back in an hour to check on you in case you have more questions, but I won't worry if you've decided to go to bed and catch some zzz's
Gill & George
Very Active Member
TBH he looks more flat than anything else to me.
But in the same way as some cat's can onset earlier than other it is possible that if they do the double thing that can be a little earlier or later. So you are in the ball park for him to have dipped already.
It's not anything to worry about, just a peculiarity of Lantus curve in some kitties. George would dip at around +10, but usually just around 10-15pts and then he would head back up for PS.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
I will be awake. I have to get up in four mins lol I cant go to sleep hahaha
It will take me from 4am til around 10am to tend to the animals for the morning.
I am hoping Mouzer will calm down today, so maybe I can grab a nap at the 10am
See you when you get back!!
Oh Yeah! I did pm shot 30 mins late and want to do it at 6am est, making up the 30 minus.
That shouldnt be much difference in numbers, I wouldnt think, anyhow, but if I am wrong, let me know.
LOL Unless Mouzer is so low that I put it off for 30 mins hahaha
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Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
+10 65 test1
+10 58 test2
3tsp lc
I remember being told feed no later than +10
Hope no more is needed
Feed Now?? I did not want to do that LOL
This cat aint comin up LMBO!
I am goin to trip out if this cat goes from this number to upper 300's in two hours
Is he even goin to make it to a shootable number LOL
LOL He might make it to two reductions in 12hrs time hahaha j/k of course
+10 58 test2
3tsp lc
I remember being told feed no later than +10
Hope no more is needed
Feed Now?? I did not want to do that LOL
This cat aint comin up LMBO!
I am goin to trip out if this cat goes from this number to upper 300's in two hours
Is he even goin to make it to a shootable number LOL
LOL He might make it to two reductions in 12hrs time hahaha j/k of course
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Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
+10.5 61
I aint shootin in green haha Mouzer comes up or no shot
You can keep your balls of steel lolol
Eyes like that due to flash
But Mouzer has never had his tongue out before, except for when I shared his photo the other day in his low greens lolol Mouzer is stoned again!
I aint shootin in green haha Mouzer comes up or no shot
You can keep your balls of steel lolol
Eyes like that due to flash
But Mouzer has never had his tongue out before, except for when I shared his photo the other day in his low greens lolol Mouzer is stoned again!
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Gill & George
Very Active Member
LOL
the +10 food was ok, but no more food now, unless he drops below 50.
I'll pop back in 30 min.
Trying to get some gardening done before it gets too hot.
the +10 food was ok, but no more food now, unless he drops below 50.
I'll pop back in 30 min.
Trying to get some gardening done before it gets too hot.
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
+11 51 2tsp hc
Cherryl & Mouzer
Very Active Member
I did not see this - I already ran back inside LOL
He slapped my hand when I poked him and made it do something where he was bleeding and it wouldnt stop haha And I had to stand there with pressure and a paper towel and finally a darn bandaid on his ear but it wont stick lol blood all over his ear, runnin down, gettin on his paws and some how it got on top of his head, prolly his shaking his head due to feeling blood drops lolol but I think it is not bleeding now and I already fed him and came back out here to laptop
+11 51 2tsp hc
LOLOL OK I have now gone insane due to being awake since 4am est yesterday morning LOLOL It is now 5:42am est today
Meet you in the new condo
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