6/1 Rocky PMPS 285 +1 322 +3 234 +5 152

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Tina & Rocky

Tina & Rocky

Member Since 2013
Good morning,

Rocky's shot time is only 1/2 an hour from now. (It's 8:30am here, PST. His shot time is at 9am) His BG has been slowly dropping since PMPS +4 last night. I don't want to stall Rocky's shot this morning. We just got him back on my schedule. But.....

What is the lowest BG that YOU would shoot Rocky this morning? confused_cat

What percentage carb foods would YOU feed Rocky for his AMPS pre-shot mini-meal, and then AMPS +1 thru +3? confused_cat

I am going to shoot low(er?) if I actually get this chance. We haven't had this opportunity since 4/8/14. It's anybodies guess if he will continue to drop or if his BG will start to go up right before AMPS.

Rocky had a .25u dosecrease yesterday morning. He is now at 2.25u of insulin.

I am ready with all of the supplies should his BG start dropping fast, or if he goes below 50.

Thank you! :YMHUG:

Yesterday's SS:
(dosecrease) AMPS 379 +1 383 +3 333 +6 365
PMPS 304 +1 304 +2 222 +3 110 +4 100 +11 95

Yesterday's Condo:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=119598
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMBG 95 *NEED CARB ADVICE NOW PLS!!

Morning tina!

I would shoot that 95 in a heartbeat - giving the same 2.25u you gave yesterday, feeding the same carb food you fed yesterday morning at amps.

it's a gift and an opportunity - grab it.

then get a minimum of a +1 and +2 to see where he's going and if he needs steering. if you're nervous, get a +0.5.
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMBG 95 ***NEED CARB ADVICE NOW PLS!!***

SHOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

You've been waiting for this, grab it. He has been surfing since +4.75, by shooting on time he may be able to keep surfing.

Carbs - I would feed normally, then get a +1 and decide what to feed. Don't try to guess, he's a cat, he will always fool you if you try to guess.
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 Wooh-hoo!

Yipee!!!​

flip_cat flip_cat flip_cat flip_cat flip_cat​

Julie and Libby, Rocky was 76 at AMPS so I gave the 2.25u shot. If his BG would have been at 50 I might have had some reservations about doing that. :?
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 +1 105 +2 142

Tina:

Great shooting today! I hope he will onset and come back down into green.

I'm sorry I didn't respond yesterday to your question. I wasn't on the board yesterday but I brought it forward to post it here.

Your question was:
What is the difference in saying that a cat is metabolizing his insulin shot pretty fast versus saying that the cat is not getting the duration that he needs on the insulin? Doesn't not getting duration on the insulin dose mean that the cat is using the insulin shot pretty fast, so there is nothing left at the end of the cycle?
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Not getting the duration means the dose is not enough. Did you see the quote I provided from Jill on BIPO? It is true that cats metabolize insulin faster than other species thus the BID dosing. But I do think (and this is just my opinion) there is a difference between how fast a cat is metabolizing their insulin when given BID and whether the dose is adequate overall. In other words, they could be metabolizing the insulin at a "normal" rate for them but there just isn't enough insulin to do the job (thus BIPO). And perhaps this is just a nuance or semantics. I think, either way you choose to look at it, the bottom line is that more insulin is needed.
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 +1 105 +2 142 +5 304

Libby and the LL gang,

Well shoot, we either didn't get much duration on this shot, or else maybe kind of prolonged the development of a bounce from the long, slow stretch of blue and green numbers the previous night?

I'm not exactly sure, but to me, it looks like this AM insulin shot didn't do a darn thing to bring down the morning numbers, but maybe it did help to prevent a bounce from going so high, so far. He has been getting the 2.25u since yesterday morning, so I believe it is likely that the blue and green last night is actually from the 2.25u dose.

I was wishing that the mid-300s is as high as he will go after a stretch of blue numbers, (they weren't even that low of blue numbers) but what I was really wishing for was a new set of numbers during the morning cycle that stayed in the 100 to 200 BG range. It looks like his nadir in the 3/31 PM cycle was that 76 this morning. So, he is not seeing 50ish numbers on this 2.25u dose. I don't think he is going to see numbers below 70 with this dose as he hasn't done that already and he's had 3 shots of 2.25u. Rocky reacts to the insulin pretty fast, so I think we should have seen those lower blue or green numbers by the second cycle of the dosecrease.

I am thinking maybe to increase his insulin dose up to 2.50 tomorrow morning *IF* he doesn't make it to a lower number in the greens during tonight's PM cycle. If his BG goes really high, like 400 or 500, then we'll know that he's in a bounce. I don't think that is likely though because these mid-blue and green BG numbers are not new to his liver and pancreas.
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 +1 105 +2 142 +5 304

remember, Lantus is a depot insulin. It works in "waves" of action, not one shot at a time (usually I look at about 3-4 days at a time). What you got was 9 hours of good numbers from +4.75 last night to +2 (or longer?) today. That's great! Next time he may go longer. He really only needs to learn to surf for 12-14 hours at a time, so he's not that far off at all. He got tired of surfing today, but he'll get back on. And aren't you glad you shot on time this morning? If you hadn't, he would have been much higher by now.

I have a question - what did you feed last night at the 110? I'm a little surprised you went to bed then, with him still apparently dropping fast at that point. At that rate, he could have easily been in the 50s by +6. I don't think that's what he did last night, it looks like he did stop dropping and just surfed, but I'm not sure I would have been confident enough to leave him for several hours. Some food and another test, even 30 minutes later, would have helped you know if it was ok to sleep. I also don't think I would have been confident enough to wait until +5 today, since Lantus onset is usually around +2 and he was still nice and blue at that point (and without as big a food spike as his normal).
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 +1 105 +2 142 +5 304

(Libby, I didn't feed him anything at the 110 BG reading last night. His last mini-meal was at PMPS +3 when he was at 201)

Alexis and Nikki wrote in Rocky's condo yesterday:

If I might make a suggestion, it might make sense to try a set pattern to the number of carbs fed at points in the cycle. I believe this might have been suggested in an earlier condo. Just as an example (because I'm not experienced in managing a diving cat), if Rocky's down 50 points at +1, go with 4% carbs, if he's down 100 points at +1, go with 8% carbs, etc. You could add a few columns to the spreadsheet for each + hour and note what carb % is fed to determine it's effect on BG.
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I sort of took this above, detailed advise, from Alexis. (Thank you Alexis! :YMHUG:)

Last night when I saw that Rocky's BG was flat at 304 for both PMPS and then PMPS +1, I fed him 1/2 can of the 4% FF Classic Chicken for both of those mini-meals.

His BG at PMPS +2 was 222. I wanted to know how fast he had dropped in one hour from PMPS +1 to PMPS +2. I subtracted 222 from 304 and got 82 points. :roll: It wasn't a 50 point drop and it wasn't a 100 point drop, but i felt that the number was closer to 100 than to 50. I decided to go ahead and bump up his carb load to 8%. I then fed him 1/4 can of the 8% Wellness Core Chicken/Turkey/Liver for his PMPS +2 mini-meal.

At PMPS +3 he had only dropped 21 points. I thought maybe it was safe to go back and feed him the 4% carb, once again. I also thought that *maybe* it would take a little bit longer to see the full effects of that 8% carb food in his system.

I debated setting my clock at 4am to check on him, but because his BG had not visited 50 on this dosecrease during his second cycle on it and I know that he is metabolizing this insulin pretty fast, I didn't think he would visit a 50 or under last night. I believe it takes Rocky under three days to feel the effects of a dosecrease.

My other cats ALWAYS wake me up between 5am and 5:30am to be fed no matter if it's been 8 hours or 2 hours since they last ate dinner. :lol: I don't even need to set my alarm as I have several cats who jump on my bed, lick my face, nudge my hand, chew on my hair, or whatever it takes to wake me up.

I don't know for sure, but I think it was the 8% carb food that kept his BG up through last night. It might have been the 8% carbs that I feed him this morning that pushed his BG into the 300s. I considered not feeding him EXACTLY the way that I did last night, with not giving him the 8% at AMPS +2. I thought maybe I should only give him the 4% carb because his BG was going up, and not down, but then I thought he could be having a food spike and that number could come crashing down if he doesn't have enough carbs.

Next time this happens, probably I should not try to guess what might happen next and just feed him the percentage carbs he needs in that moment. I think I should have stuck with the 4% carbs for all of his AM cycle mini-meals today because nothing told me that he needed an increase in carbs.

***Considering his BG reading at PMPS +8 of 299, I believe that I simply fed him too many carbs this morning. He might have had a flatter, blue line if I had stuck with the 4% carbs for all of his AMPS mini-meals today.

I do not believe this is a 'meter variance' reading because it has been 4 hours since I last tested him. I could be wrong. I am often wrong.
 
Re: 1/6 Rocky AMPS 76 +1 105 +2 142 +5 304

Tina & Rocky said:
I debated setting my clock at 4am to check on him, but because his BG had not visited 50 on this dosecrease during his second cycle on it and I know that he is metabolizing this insulin pretty fast, I didn't think he would visit a 50 or under last night.
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Patterns change, especially as they start to do better. In the past, Rocky usually responded on cycle 4 or 5 of a new dose. The last time, though, he responded on cycle 3. That he could respond on cycle 2 this time is not out of the question at all. It may have been due to the 2.25 dose, or it may have been because the bounce from the night before was clearing. Most likely it was a combination of both factors. Nothing occurs in a vacuum.

Next time this happens, probably I should not try to guess what might happen next and just feed him the percentage carbs he needs in that moment. I think I should have stuck with the 4% carbs for all of his AM cycle mini-meals today because nothing told me that he needed an increase in carbs.
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YES! Do what the numbers tell you to do.

You're over-thinking the carb thing, seriously. I do understand where that comes from, as that seems to be the way "feeding the curve" is taught here in LL these days. It doesn't have to be so complicated. Feed normally, and if he starts to drop fast then bump the carbs to slow him down (and that will mean feeding at times other than the "planned" mini-meals - feed what he needs when he needs it).

***Considering his BG reading at PMPS +8 of 299, I believe that I simply fed him too many carbs this morning. He might have had a flatter, blue line if I had stuck with the 4% carbs for all of his AMPS mini-meals today.
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Or (more likely) his little pancreas just needed a break from all the surfing. We see this ALL the time. And it looks like he tried to hop back onto the surfboard overnight already. :smile:

With regards to feeding Rocky, I looked back at what I posted to you a couple of weeks ago and I still feel the same way:

Libby and Lucy said:
Even going back a few weeks, it looks like he usually gives you a signal at +1 or +2 that he is going to drop. You are usually getting a +2 anyway, so I would suggest that if he is dropping pretty fast already at +2 then go ahead and bump his carbs up for his snack. Not a lot, and you'll have to experiment to see what works. Maybe if your regular food is 5%, try 8% or 12% only when you see that early drop and see which gives you the best results. The goal would be to see if he'll surf a wee bit higher instead of plunging and bouncing. It can take a while to teach them to surf, so be patient.

If he has a yellow or pink preshot and you're expecting a bounce to clear, then getting a +1 test might not be a bad idea on that cycle. He doesn't always drop by +1 when he is going to have one of those cycles, but if he *does* drop at +1 then you know it's going to be one of those and can get an even earlier jump start on feeding the curve. So far, some of his clues that action is coming seem to be a high before the break, and/or an extremely flat cycle (often with a pretty good dip at the end of the cycle - watch for those), and/or a fast drop by +2.
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The drop wasn't at +1 and +2 this time, but it was at +2 and +3. It was still a big clue that more could be coming. Luckily it looks like he decided to surf this time rather than keep dropping, and hopefully that will become his new pattern, but I wouldn't trust him just yet.

Once you have learned to feed the curve, THEN we can talk about more advanced techniques, if he still needs them. He may not.
 
Yea, Rocky got into green numbers after a one cycle bounce. I hope this means he has turned the corner to better numbers,Tina.
 
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