558 this morning,501 yesterday morning.
- Thread starter Obie
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tibbs5
Member Since 2014
hi
it looks like you just started this sugar dance as they call it here. me too. i do know that when you just start it takes a long time for their body to adjust. obie did go low and this may be a bounce which does happen all the time. can you get any more readings in between like between +5 and +7 so we can see how low he is going? also have you been testing his urine for ketones? if not, just go to any pharmacy and buy the ketone test strips. i usually scoot a plastic dish under tibbs when he pees and then dip the stick. this is an important test and will tell you alot about what's going on. last, just take it easy and slow. it takes a long time to regulate. so get some more readings and test for ketones right away, this is very very important, and tell us what you find.
nadine
it looks like you just started this sugar dance as they call it here. me too. i do know that when you just start it takes a long time for their body to adjust. obie did go low and this may be a bounce which does happen all the time. can you get any more readings in between like between +5 and +7 so we can see how low he is going? also have you been testing his urine for ketones? if not, just go to any pharmacy and buy the ketone test strips. i usually scoot a plastic dish under tibbs when he pees and then dip the stick. this is an important test and will tell you alot about what's going on. last, just take it easy and slow. it takes a long time to regulate. so get some more readings and test for ketones right away, this is very very important, and tell us what you find.
nadine
Laura&Chichi (GA)
Member Since 2014
Hello! I agree that you should be testing for ketones since you are seeing those higher numbers. As far as dose advice, I am not going to tell you what to do, only your choices. You can either keep the dose unchanged and continue to test, and this really need to be at least 3-4 a day. Having mid cycle test is really crucial in being able to know what dose to give. Just having the pre shot numbers tells you only if its safe to shoot. You are getting other test done that I can see, but please try to get a +6 or +7 in both the am and pm cycles. Many of us here that work and cant test during the day, will set an alarm to get a +6 or 7 after pmps. Also, if you work, on your days off you should do mini curves, which means test every 2-3 hours from amps-pmps. I have someone who test for me during the day, and I am fortunate for that, but before that, I would get amps/pmps and then a pmps+2, or 3, and then sometimes at +6. I caught some low numbers that way. If you cant do that, then you could drop the dose down to 1u and see what happens, but be prepared to increase back up if there is no improvement. Im only telling you your choices here, and he may be dropping during the night and bouncing way up by morning, or maybe he isnt and needs more insulin. Without more data, its impossible to know. I hope Mel or someone else can give you advice soon, I just wanted to give my opinion, for what its worth. I hope you kitty is doing ok otherwise.
Obie
Member Since 2014
Let me describe Obie
Obie is 12 yrs old, at his heaviest he weighed 23.25 lbs and at his recent lightest he weighed 15.69lbs and might be a pound heavier now.
he is a big framed cat (About 20-22" long). He was a rescue kitten. He was a spare test kitten that we adopted. He is strong and always hungry.
Before he was diagnosed he was pissing rivers and drinking tons of water for quite a while. I think He has been a diabetic for a very very long time.
His body is used to unhealthy highs. Obie ate tons of dry food, not the cheap store bought stuff but the diet food you get from the vet.
Turns out, all that stuff was high in carbohydrates..Grrr!! Dry food has been totally eliminated from his diet now.
Now for my part in this.
I brought home twenty u100 syringes from the vet and those were used in the first 10 days. I was giving him 1u lantus twice a day and never noticed a bent needle or a fur shot.
Well, I got more needles u100 that were a finer gauge 31, and my shots became more difficult. I know of one definite furshot and twice bending a needle. I bent one extracting the insulin!
I found my initial 4 doses that were done two days earlier (Before I got my log book and own glucose monitor) They were day 1, 452am/348pm. day 2 445am/445pm all the shots on my chart were with the better needles up until 7/28 in my chart.Up until then the numbers were reasonable for the period he has been on lantus. The smaller needles though, with the fur shots and bent needles caused wacky stuff to happen. He hit over 500 on the 30th! Also, I just noticed that that was when we also upped the shot to 1.5u.
It seems to me that if we would have stuck with 1u he may have mellowed out a bit better by now. Or maybe 1 was too high? He has been a diabetic for awhile.
Anyways. Obie has a strong appetite, he isn't drinking tons of water, he isn't eating anything dry or carb heavy. He is playful, energetic,loving.
Tonight I am giving him Fluids and plan to until he gets at least below 300.
I don't know if this gives anyone a feel for my cat, but I figure More is better.
Obie is 12 yrs old, at his heaviest he weighed 23.25 lbs and at his recent lightest he weighed 15.69lbs and might be a pound heavier now.
he is a big framed cat (About 20-22" long). He was a rescue kitten. He was a spare test kitten that we adopted. He is strong and always hungry.
Before he was diagnosed he was pissing rivers and drinking tons of water for quite a while. I think He has been a diabetic for a very very long time.
His body is used to unhealthy highs. Obie ate tons of dry food, not the cheap store bought stuff but the diet food you get from the vet.
Turns out, all that stuff was high in carbohydrates..Grrr!! Dry food has been totally eliminated from his diet now.
Now for my part in this.
I brought home twenty u100 syringes from the vet and those were used in the first 10 days. I was giving him 1u lantus twice a day and never noticed a bent needle or a fur shot.
Well, I got more needles u100 that were a finer gauge 31, and my shots became more difficult. I know of one definite furshot and twice bending a needle. I bent one extracting the insulin!
I found my initial 4 doses that were done two days earlier (Before I got my log book and own glucose monitor) They were day 1, 452am/348pm. day 2 445am/445pm all the shots on my chart were with the better needles up until 7/28 in my chart.Up until then the numbers were reasonable for the period he has been on lantus. The smaller needles though, with the fur shots and bent needles caused wacky stuff to happen. He hit over 500 on the 30th! Also, I just noticed that that was when we also upped the shot to 1.5u.
It seems to me that if we would have stuck with 1u he may have mellowed out a bit better by now. Or maybe 1 was too high? He has been a diabetic for awhile.
Anyways. Obie has a strong appetite, he isn't drinking tons of water, he isn't eating anything dry or carb heavy. He is playful, energetic,loving.
Tonight I am giving him Fluids and plan to until he gets at least below 300.
I don't know if this gives anyone a feel for my cat, but I figure More is better.
Hi there,
Stopping Lantus will empty the shed. Then you will be starting all over. And stopping insulin when a cat is giving you numbers that high is, in my opinion, very dangerous for the cat.
If you want to go back to one unit twice a day, and test at least 4 times a day, I could say that might be a reasonable plan. But stopping insulin all together to prevent hypoglycemia is not a good move. Try short needle, 3/10 cc. 30 gauge Relion syringes with 1/2 unit markings.
Have lots of experience with Lantus for both myself and several diabetic cats over the last 8 years. Would never stop Lantus with numbers over 250.
Questions??? I'm here.
Claudia
Stopping Lantus will empty the shed. Then you will be starting all over. And stopping insulin when a cat is giving you numbers that high is, in my opinion, very dangerous for the cat.
If you want to go back to one unit twice a day, and test at least 4 times a day, I could say that might be a reasonable plan. But stopping insulin all together to prevent hypoglycemia is not a good move. Try short needle, 3/10 cc. 30 gauge Relion syringes with 1/2 unit markings.
Have lots of experience with Lantus for both myself and several diabetic cats over the last 8 years. Would never stop Lantus with numbers over 250.
Questions??? I'm here.
Claudia
Obie
Member Since 2014
The last time I skipped his shot when he was 138, he skyrocketed to 513 in 5 hours. The next shot was.5u and his numbers remained in the 400 until I upped the shot back to 1u.
That brought his numbers into the 300's until she had me up it to 1.5u. There were mostly 400 readings after that and they drifted down for a few days to far better numbers, then the numbers would explode when the shot wore off both evening and morning it seems. I am nervous about not shooting him with insulin,and I'm nervous of shooting him with insulin.
Part of me thinks I should at least give him a token dose. If he is rebound hypoglycemic and hits 500+ on 1.5, IMHO he might hit that again tonight at normal shot time and not have anything to help him come down. I am starting to think his dose should be somewhere between .75 and 1u. As for the short needles, I have a hard time with them. The longer ones have been easier for me to use.
He was in the 500's before I started treating him a month ago. I am terrified of listening to my vet and I'm terrified of not listening to you guys.
Worst of all, I'm terrified of hurting my kitty.
That brought his numbers into the 300's until she had me up it to 1.5u. There were mostly 400 readings after that and they drifted down for a few days to far better numbers, then the numbers would explode when the shot wore off both evening and morning it seems. I am nervous about not shooting him with insulin,and I'm nervous of shooting him with insulin.
Part of me thinks I should at least give him a token dose. If he is rebound hypoglycemic and hits 500+ on 1.5, IMHO he might hit that again tonight at normal shot time and not have anything to help him come down. I am starting to think his dose should be somewhere between .75 and 1u. As for the short needles, I have a hard time with them. The longer ones have been easier for me to use.
He was in the 500's before I started treating him a month ago. I am terrified of listening to my vet and I'm terrified of not listening to you guys.
Worst of all, I'm terrified of hurting my kitty.
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
please believe me when i tell you to listen to Claudia. most vets do not understand how this works. claudia is also an expert and has cared for many diabetic cats. she knows exactly what to do. i would, and have, followed the advice from these people who have been doing this for years. it works !!!!!! and please go get those ketone strips right away and test your cat.
Obie
Member Since 2014
I am 80 minutes away from shot time. I did a glucose test at the 10 hour mark and he was at 314. I imagine when he gets fed and water at the 12 hour mark he will be much higher. Hell, he could be lower for all i know.
If it is the opinion of most here that not giving him a shot would be worse than giving him a shot then I will abide to the consensus of those with more knowledge.
I am thinking that a .75 dose would at least keep him in the low 300's for the night. I know 300's are bad, but at this point it beats 400-500's.
Would a half dose be as bad as no dose? If anything, shouldn't I back him down slowly?.
If it is the opinion of most here that not giving him a shot would be worse than giving him a shot then I will abide to the consensus of those with more knowledge.
I am thinking that a .75 dose would at least keep him in the low 300's for the night. I know 300's are bad, but at this point it beats 400-500's.
Would a half dose be as bad as no dose? If anything, shouldn't I back him down slowly?.
Laura&Chichi (GA)
Member Since 2014
I agree with Claudia, he needs some insulin, I would go with .75 if you feel ok with it.
Laura&Chichi (GA)
Member Since 2014
Also, I wouldnt be concerned about your vet being upset with you. Many of us have vets we disagree with,and have gone against their instructions. I know if I had listened to mine and not home tested and just shot blindly, my cat wouldnt be here right now because I have gotton very low preshot numbers and had I shot not knowing that, she would probably have hypo'd and I would have woke up, or came home to a dead cat! You hold the syringe..not your vet, and you have to do what you feel is best. If he/she doesnt like it, then maybe you need another vet. After seeing my spreadsheet,mine realized I knew what I was doing and leaves me alone now. Oh, and hopefully you can pick up some ketone strips at the drug store or walmart and start testing soon. We are here to help if we can, because we have all been beginners at some point. Paws and fingers crossed for Obie and I hope he gets better numbers soon.
Edited_wrong cat! sorry!!!
Edited_wrong cat! sorry!!!
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
please also remember that when you change the dose, you don't see that change right away. it takes days sometimes for the shed to adjust so you may not see any changes for a while. you need to stick with the same dose for a few days to let everything settle. they told me as a beginner to not shoot only if the preshot number was under 200 so you seem to be fine right now for giving the insulin. Testing for ketones will tell you if any damage is being done by the high numbers. good luck and i hope your baby does well. this whole thing takes alot of patience but this is the right place to be for you and Obie.
LindaMS
Member Since 2013
Ok, first... breathe. Good. Now do it again.... better.
Skipping insulin would have been a bad plan, as others have already mentioned. Your cat has not shown any low numbers at all, so no reason to be afraid to give some.
Secondly, you have adjusted the dose many times, and I am not certain why.... remember that Lantus is a depot insulin, so it builds up in the body. What is working in your cats system right this moment is the insulin given over the last 3 or 4 days. its not like a tylenol that stops working after 6 hours and you have to take some more. Depot insulins continue to work for days, but need to be "topped up" to keep working over time.
Obie is having a combination of New Dose Wonkiness due you to making changes, and also he is likely bouncing. As you say, he has been diabetic for a long time, and his liver panics when you cause his BG to get into normal ranges.. the liver doesnt believe in that old normal. It will learn over time.
Have a look at my spreadsheet in my signature. Sammy bounced all over for a long time. And I got frustrated and confused too. But she eventually evened out, her liver got retrained, her pancreas woke up and she is off the juice. It is do-able.
But, it is important that you test for ketones while kitty is showing those high numbers. Even a trace is a signal of an emergency.
Skipping insulin would have been a bad plan, as others have already mentioned. Your cat has not shown any low numbers at all, so no reason to be afraid to give some.
Secondly, you have adjusted the dose many times, and I am not certain why.... remember that Lantus is a depot insulin, so it builds up in the body. What is working in your cats system right this moment is the insulin given over the last 3 or 4 days. its not like a tylenol that stops working after 6 hours and you have to take some more. Depot insulins continue to work for days, but need to be "topped up" to keep working over time.
Obie is having a combination of New Dose Wonkiness due you to making changes, and also he is likely bouncing. As you say, he has been diabetic for a long time, and his liver panics when you cause his BG to get into normal ranges.. the liver doesnt believe in that old normal. It will learn over time.
Have a look at my spreadsheet in my signature. Sammy bounced all over for a long time. And I got frustrated and confused too. But she eventually evened out, her liver got retrained, her pancreas woke up and she is off the juice. It is do-able.
But, it is important that you test for ketones while kitty is showing those high numbers. Even a trace is a signal of an emergency.
Obie
Member Since 2014
Thank you for the help.
I still think 1.5 was a bit too high for him. He didn't float near as high on 1u .But he didn't go near as low as on the 1.5u.
As far as ketones go, I have never tested him for those. He doesn't really pee rivers anymore or drink like a fish since he stopped eating carb high stuff.
On the outside he appears normal and even more playful. His number this morning was 457 which is close to average as of late on his morning number.
I am thinking about sticking at.75 for 4 days and see what happens to him. He will be getting sq fluids every night even though he doesn't seem dehydrated to me.
I saw by sammys numbers that there was a bit of dose changing but it was done over longer spats of time.
I haven't found any puke lately, which is good.
Does my path seem at all logical?
I still think 1.5 was a bit too high for him. He didn't float near as high on 1u .But he didn't go near as low as on the 1.5u.
As far as ketones go, I have never tested him for those. He doesn't really pee rivers anymore or drink like a fish since he stopped eating carb high stuff.
On the outside he appears normal and even more playful. His number this morning was 457 which is close to average as of late on his morning number.
I am thinking about sticking at.75 for 4 days and see what happens to him. He will be getting sq fluids every night even though he doesn't seem dehydrated to me.
I saw by sammys numbers that there was a bit of dose changing but it was done over longer spats of time.
I haven't found any puke lately, which is good.
Does my path seem at all logical?
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
I would hold the .75 for at least a full 7 days to let him really settle on it.
Really need to be testing for ketones. There are no outward signs of ketones but they can be fatal if not caught early.
BTW. What do we call you? Obie's personal slave is kinda long to type out all the time. :lol:
Mel and The Fur Gang
Really need to be testing for ketones. There are no outward signs of ketones but they can be fatal if not caught early.
BTW. What do we call you? Obie's personal slave is kinda long to type out all the time. :lol:
Mel and The Fur Gang
RobinCot
Member Since 2013
Linda is so right!!! It takes a while for cycles to become flatter and balance out. You have to stick with one dose and give it time to work before you consider changing it. My sugarcat needs 8-10 days on a dose to see if its working.
I am wondering (as are you) why are you giving fluids? Does he have another problem? Are you hydrating his food?
Oh and I see Mel is checking in. She will be able to advise you properly on dosage.
I am wondering (as are you) why are you giving fluids? Does he have another problem? Are you hydrating his food?
Oh and I see Mel is checking in. She will be able to advise you properly on dosage.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Lol That's better James is much easier to type ohmygod_smile Nice to have a name to call Obie's dad. Honestly we're a friendly bunch and only bite when begged lol.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Mel and The Fur Gang
Obie
Member Since 2014
Nice to meet you!
I just realized I'm down to three test strips and My other ones wont be here until hopefully tomorrow.
I may have to go buy a cheap human reader. Sucks that the strips are so expensive. My vet made me get the alphatrak 2 which cost far too much and the strips are 1$ a piece. I have to pay about 180 a strip for a supply of 50 if i buy it from my vet.
I just realized I'm down to three test strips and My other ones wont be here until hopefully tomorrow.
I may have to go buy a cheap human reader. Sucks that the strips are so expensive. My vet made me get the alphatrak 2 which cost far too much and the strips are 1$ a piece. I have to pay about 180 a strip for a supply of 50 if i buy it from my vet.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Second the getting a cheap human meter for daily testing. Save the Alphatrak for vet readings if he insists. But in 4 years and 5 different sugarcats my vet never even discusses their diabetes management with me instead she calls me to discuss her other diabetic clients. In fact she sees mine so rarely for anything but routine care that I have to remind her who is and who isn't extra sweet.
I use the Walmart Relion Prime..meter $16 strips are 50 for $9
Mel and The Fur Gang
I use the Walmart Relion Prime..meter $16 strips are 50 for $9
Mel and The Fur Gang
Obie
Member Since 2014
I just bought a relion confirm,ketone strips,50 test strips and 8 cans of fancy feast for 3$ cheaper than buying 50 alphatrak strips.
Is there any special math needed to change the numbers. I mean if it reads 356 on my alphatrak 2 will it read about the same numbers on the relion confirm?
Is there any special math needed to change the numbers. I mean if it reads 356 on my alphatrak 2 will it read about the same numbers on the relion confirm?
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
The Alphatrak reads slightly higher than a human meter but for our purposes here just mark on your spreadsheet where you change meters and just go with the numbers from the Confirm. Only real difference is normal range on a human meter is 40-120, whereas on the Alphatrak its 70-150.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Mel and The Fur Gang
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Yep that's about normal for the difference in how the meters are calibrated. Most everyone here uses a human meter so the human meter numbers will make more sense to us without making us do the math.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Mel and The Fur Gang
Obie
Member Since 2014
This is where it is going to get weird. If I post that my cat is 558 on my alphatrak then he is probably 500 on the relion.
If the alphatrak reads 138 would the relion read 80? This could get dangerous around the low numbers.
I will attempt to use both for awhile to see if I can get a feel for the numbers. It's no wonder my chart looks different from alot of folks here.
If the alphatrak reads 138 would the relion read 80? This could get dangerous around the low numbers.
I will attempt to use both for awhile to see if I can get a feel for the numbers. It's no wonder my chart looks different from alot of folks here.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Its like comparing fahrenheit to celsius. Its a different calibration. Low end is 40 on a human meter and 70 on Alphatrak. Just like water freezes at 32 fahrenheit or at 0 celsius. So 80 on a human meter is purrfect
Hey James, nice to meet you!
Now, I'm going to be a broken record and ask did you get a bottle of Ketone strips?
Wish you had asked me about Alpha Trak. It is a marketing scheme by Abbott Labs to distribute glucometers that couldn't make the grade with human diabetics. It makes me so angry that I won't use the meter (Abbott) built into my insulin pump. My personal boycott.
I use Relion confirm and mini, Contour, Ultra touch and, my favorite, AccuChek Nano. Relion is great for the price of strips for people with cats who have to pay full boat for their strips. As a human diabetics, my strips are under my prescription plan.
Hold Obie steady with the .75 and lets see where he leads us in the sugar dance.
Take care,
Claudia
Now, I'm going to be a broken record and ask did you get a bottle of Ketone strips?
Wish you had asked me about Alpha Trak. It is a marketing scheme by Abbott Labs to distribute glucometers that couldn't make the grade with human diabetics. It makes me so angry that I won't use the meter (Abbott) built into my insulin pump. My personal boycott.
I use Relion confirm and mini, Contour, Ultra touch and, my favorite, AccuChek Nano. Relion is great for the price of strips for people with cats who have to pay full boat for their strips. As a human diabetics, my strips are under my prescription plan.
Hold Obie steady with the .75 and lets see where he leads us in the sugar dance.
Take care,
Claudia
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
hi james
i usually keep a little flat plate near the litter box and when my kitty goes in i just put it under his butt when he squats. i always manage to get enough urine in the cup to dip the test strip. of course my cat thinks i'm nuts for always following him into the potty. LOL but it's really important to test. so glad u were able to find the strips
i usually keep a little flat plate near the litter box and when my kitty goes in i just put it under his butt when he squats. i always manage to get enough urine in the cup to dip the test strip. of course my cat thinks i'm nuts for always following him into the potty. LOL but it's really important to test. so glad u were able to find the strips
Squeaky and KT (GA)
Member Since 2011
Good Morning James and extra sweet Obie! Not sure if I've said 'Welcome' yet so Welcome! 
If you can't catch clean pee, you can stick the ketone strip in the fresh puddle even if it does end up with a bit of litter on it. I know they still work OK. If by chance you DO see what you think are ketones present, THEN do your best to catch clean next time. One of 'da sugarboyz' went ketonic in May, I tried dipping the strips in 3 different kinds of litter - TidyCat, walnut shells and corn. I found all of them to be the same as the clean catch in his case. It's better than not catching it at all!
GOOD LUCK! Patience is the key to control... ;-)
If you can't catch clean pee, you can stick the ketone strip in the fresh puddle even if it does end up with a bit of litter on it. I know they still work OK. If by chance you DO see what you think are ketones present, THEN do your best to catch clean next time. One of 'da sugarboyz' went ketonic in May, I tried dipping the strips in 3 different kinds of litter - TidyCat, walnut shells and corn. I found all of them to be the same as the clean catch in his case. It's better than not catching it at all!
GOOD LUCK! Patience is the key to control... ;-)
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