nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Dose reduced by .25 to 1.75U.
We'll see what happens now.
We'll see what happens now.
5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274 PMPS 349
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MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268
Fingers and toes all crossed that he will come down gently today and surf safely.
If you decided to go the way of either R or N....I would recommend getting in touch with either Jill/Alex or Dyana for help using R. Dale/Chip would be the guidance point if you go with N. I'm completely worthless when it comes to using a bolus with a basal insulin.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Fingers and toes all crossed that he will come down gently today and surf safely.
If you decided to go the way of either R or N....I would recommend getting in touch with either Jill/Alex or Dyana for help using R. Dale/Chip would be the guidance point if you go with N. I'm completely worthless when it comes to using a bolus with a basal insulin.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268
I can't do anything right now, I didn't get my check last week, paid rent, now I'm broke until they decide to send me one.
I can't do anything right now, I didn't get my check last week, paid rent, now I'm broke until they decide to send me one.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174
What I wouldn't give for him to stay in blue.
What I wouldn't give for him to stay in blue.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274
RATS! I had hoped he would stay in the blue for a bit.
Could it be because of the dose decrease and maybe needs to settle in for a few days? Maybe after an adjustment period, it'll come down? I hope so. I couldn't very well keep him on that dose, since he dropped to low/mid 40's twice, right? ohmygod_smile
RATS! I had hoped he would stay in the blue for a bit.
Could it be because of the dose decrease and maybe needs to settle in for a few days? Maybe after an adjustment period, it'll come down? I hope so. I couldn't very well keep him on that dose, since he dropped to low/mid 40's twice, right? ohmygod_smile
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274
What is Lucian's favorite flavor of Fancy Feast?
Yes, you needed to drop the dose because the 2.25 was too much, dropped to 40's. The fat 2.0 was too much, dropped to 40's again.
What is Lucian's favorite flavor of Fancy Feast?
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274
Unless he goes below 50 again or you have to skip because the pre-shot is below 150, try to keep this dose for 3 full days (6 doses), then evaluate the nadir for adjustment.
I have a funny feeling he might be on too high a dose because of how often he goes/stays high, then will have some days in more moderate numbers, something green, and then up it goes again. Take an overview look at your spreadsheet by setting the magnification down to 50%. This lets color patterns stick out more.
It looks roughly like green, black, red, magenta, blue,and repeat.
Unless he goes below 50 again or you have to skip because the pre-shot is below 150, try to keep this dose for 3 full days (6 doses), then evaluate the nadir for adjustment.
I have a funny feeling he might be on too high a dose because of how often he goes/stays high, then will have some days in more moderate numbers, something green, and then up it goes again. Take an overview look at your spreadsheet by setting the magnification down to 50%. This lets color patterns stick out more.
It looks roughly like green, black, red, magenta, blue,and repeat.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274
I haven't skipped a preshot that I remember, I have shot a reduced dose a couple times and it was a mistake. He seems to do better with his steady dose. I think I have shot an 84, at the lowest, with his full dose, without a problem. Shoot low to stay low, they say. Besides I'm here 24/7 to monitor him and will cancel anything if he's running low. Obsessive much? :lol: Scared he'll go hypo and I won't be here to care for him, so I am stickler about it. I even have all my physical therapy appointments after 3:30 pm to be on the safe side.
I plan to hold his dose at least 3 days, usually 5-7, I understand how important it is, maybe more so with him. A couple times, he seemed to be improving and then I screwed up. Either a furshot or reducing too soon. I'm trying to be as consistent as I can.
Yup, wash, rinse, repeat. I hate it. He comes down but won't stay there. I'm trying to work his dose back down from my last screw up, that required a higher dose to get over. :sad: I've taken him down twice to make sure I didn't miss his 'good' dose and worked it back up. He was doing a little better on a lower dose until I messed up, so hopefully I can get him back down there again.
And his nadir??? Just where the h*ll is it?!?! It can be anywhere from +5-+10! Never the same, 2 cycles in a row. :shock: Half the time he thinks he's a Lev kitty! I test a lot, IMO. Although, I rarely test at night, when his PMPS is 600+. Try to give him a break at times like that. Thank heavens his strips are cheap!
Lucian does't get Fancy Feast, I can't afford it with 3 of them. But when I did buy it, he liked everything but chicken and salmon. For some reason, none of my cats like chicken or salmon. They will eat chicken mixed, once in a while, like chicken and liver or chicken and tuna, but just chicken, he tries to bury the plate. :lol: I buy Friskee's and Petsmart brand in turkey and giblets, supreme supper, poultry platter, tuna and whitefish mostly, with a couple cans of something else for variety. I just make sure it's less than 10 carbs. It runs from 4-9 usually. He'll rarely eat the same thing twice in a row, so I usually have 2-4 cans open at any given time.
Today, he has eaten more at his meals, up to 3/8 of a 5.5 oz can. Usually he just ate 1/4 can at each meal, but he's been more hungry today.
I haven't skipped a preshot that I remember, I have shot a reduced dose a couple times and it was a mistake. He seems to do better with his steady dose. I think I have shot an 84, at the lowest, with his full dose, without a problem. Shoot low to stay low, they say. Besides I'm here 24/7 to monitor him and will cancel anything if he's running low. Obsessive much? :lol: Scared he'll go hypo and I won't be here to care for him, so I am stickler about it. I even have all my physical therapy appointments after 3:30 pm to be on the safe side.
I plan to hold his dose at least 3 days, usually 5-7, I understand how important it is, maybe more so with him. A couple times, he seemed to be improving and then I screwed up. Either a furshot or reducing too soon. I'm trying to be as consistent as I can.
Yup, wash, rinse, repeat. I hate it. He comes down but won't stay there. I'm trying to work his dose back down from my last screw up, that required a higher dose to get over. :sad: I've taken him down twice to make sure I didn't miss his 'good' dose and worked it back up. He was doing a little better on a lower dose until I messed up, so hopefully I can get him back down there again.
And his nadir??? Just where the h*ll is it?!?! It can be anywhere from +5-+10! Never the same, 2 cycles in a row. :shock: Half the time he thinks he's a Lev kitty! I test a lot, IMO. Although, I rarely test at night, when his PMPS is 600+. Try to give him a break at times like that. Thank heavens his strips are cheap!
Lucian does't get Fancy Feast, I can't afford it with 3 of them. But when I did buy it, he liked everything but chicken and salmon. For some reason, none of my cats like chicken or salmon. They will eat chicken mixed, once in a while, like chicken and liver or chicken and tuna, but just chicken, he tries to bury the plate. :lol: I buy Friskee's and Petsmart brand in turkey and giblets, supreme supper, poultry platter, tuna and whitefish mostly, with a couple cans of something else for variety. I just make sure it's less than 10 carbs. It runs from 4-9 usually. He'll rarely eat the same thing twice in a row, so I usually have 2-4 cans open at any given time.
Today, he has eaten more at his meals, up to 3/8 of a 5.5 oz can. Usually he just ate 1/4 can at each meal, but he's been more hungry today.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Not a bad PMPS, I was expecting higher.
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Not a bad PMPS.
The only thing my 'clean up cat' has never wanted to eat was the Hill's ZD canned. I can't blame him, with that gelatin consistency, must be very unappealing to a cat. 'shudder' smilie
I hope one of your other kitties acts as a clean up crew for Lucien's rejects :smile: Luckily, one of my cats will eat any rejects that Wink does not like. Like last night, I tried the chunky chicken and Wink ate around the chunks and eat the plain chicken I had mixed in.
The only thing my 'clean up cat' has never wanted to eat was the Hill's ZD canned. I can't blame him, with that gelatin consistency, must be very unappealing to a cat. 'shudder' smilie
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Fortunately, I have a 16 yo feral that will eat just about anything, except plain chicken and salmon. And just because Lucian doesn't want it for lunch, doesn't mean he won't eat it for dinner. He's crazy like that but hey, we don't want the same thing for lunch and dinner, so I just rotate them. Early on, mixed grill was his absolute fave, but now he won't touch it. The first few weeks, he wouldn't eat anything with chicken in it, but will eat mixed some now. He changes all the time. @-) I've gotten used to it. Funny though, he ate the same dry food, same flavor, all day, every day for 14 yrs. Go figure!
Go figure!
Jill & Alex (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 5/7 Lucian AMPS 268,+4/174,+8/274
hi debbie. i hope you don't mind me jumping in here. you're making such progress and i don't want to see you lose any momentum. with as bouncy as lucian is i felt compelled to say something.
something often forgotten by lantus and levemir users regarding reductions that come close together...
lantus & levemir are depot insulins. not only does one dose build upon the next when you're going up the dosing scale, but when you're coming down the scale, the dose(s) from the previous couple of days can influence what happens the next couple of days.
in other words, when a reduction is taken some "residual action" from the previous dose remains from the depot. it takes at least 3 days for a dose to build and it can take up to 3 days for the depot to diminish. even though the dose has been reduced, there's still a little leftover action from the higher dose. for example: the reduced dose of 2u given on 5/6 had a little extra oomph to it. you could almost consider the 2u dose as a 2+u dose because the depots from the 2.25u and 2 fat unit doses hadn't had a chance to diminish completely.
5/4/13
amps 289 (2.25 skinny)
+4 105
+6 49
+7 57
+8 64
pmps 365 (2.0 fat) ----------> reduction taken because of the 49.
+3 227
5/5/13
amps 455 (2.0 fat)
+4 305
+8 157
pmps 210 (2.0 fat)
+3 258
+6 254
5/6/13
amps 262 (2.0 fat)
+4 60
+5 54
+6 44 ----------> but look back to the previous 3 days. the depots of the 2.25 skinny and 2.0 fat doses are still at play here... in varying degrees.
+7 73
+9 189
pmps HI (2.00) ----------> reduction taken because of the 44
5/7/13
amps 268 (1.75) ----------> another reduction.
+4 174
+8 274
pmps 349 (1.75)
+3 448
when reductions are taken too close together they often fail because caregivers forget about how the leftover action from the depot influences the reduced dose. it usually results in kitty being under dose and they find themselves having to take the dose back up again... often surpassing the last "good" dose.
one way to get around taking reductions too close together:
on 5/6 you caught a 60 @+4 and a 54 @+5. since lucian just came off of a reduction, feeding a couple teaspoons of low carb food @+5 may have been just enough to get him surfing in the 50s... preventing him from dropping into the 40s and earning yet another reduction. this method of feeding the curve to prevent an earned reduction is especially helpful with bouncy kitties. preventing the drop below 50 will allow you to keep more insulin into the cat which will help bring down the numbers on either side of nadir.
just something to keep in mind because it's sure to come up again.
fwiw, i wouldn't hesitate to take the dose right back up if the reduction doesn't look like it's holding.
just a few thoughts... hope they make sense and you don't mind the intrusion. :mrgreen:
hi debbie. i hope you don't mind me jumping in here. you're making such progress and i don't want to see you lose any momentum. with as bouncy as lucian is i felt compelled to say something.
well, with as much as you test... yes, you could have kept him on the 2 fat unit dose or even the 2u dose.nckitties3 said:
something often forgotten by lantus and levemir users regarding reductions that come close together...
lantus & levemir are depot insulins. not only does one dose build upon the next when you're going up the dosing scale, but when you're coming down the scale, the dose(s) from the previous couple of days can influence what happens the next couple of days.
in other words, when a reduction is taken some "residual action" from the previous dose remains from the depot. it takes at least 3 days for a dose to build and it can take up to 3 days for the depot to diminish. even though the dose has been reduced, there's still a little leftover action from the higher dose. for example: the reduced dose of 2u given on 5/6 had a little extra oomph to it. you could almost consider the 2u dose as a 2+u dose because the depots from the 2.25u and 2 fat unit doses hadn't had a chance to diminish completely.
5/4/13
amps 289 (2.25 skinny)
+4 105
+6 49
+7 57
+8 64
pmps 365 (2.0 fat) ----------> reduction taken because of the 49.
+3 227
5/5/13
amps 455 (2.0 fat)
+4 305
+8 157
pmps 210 (2.0 fat)
+3 258
+6 254
5/6/13
amps 262 (2.0 fat)
+4 60
+5 54
+6 44 ----------> but look back to the previous 3 days. the depots of the 2.25 skinny and 2.0 fat doses are still at play here... in varying degrees.
+7 73
+9 189
pmps HI (2.00) ----------> reduction taken because of the 44
5/7/13
amps 268 (1.75) ----------> another reduction.
+4 174
+8 274
pmps 349 (1.75)
+3 448
when reductions are taken too close together they often fail because caregivers forget about how the leftover action from the depot influences the reduced dose. it usually results in kitty being under dose and they find themselves having to take the dose back up again... often surpassing the last "good" dose.
one way to get around taking reductions too close together:
on 5/6 you caught a 60 @+4 and a 54 @+5. since lucian just came off of a reduction, feeding a couple teaspoons of low carb food @+5 may have been just enough to get him surfing in the 50s... preventing him from dropping into the 40s and earning yet another reduction. this method of feeding the curve to prevent an earned reduction is especially helpful with bouncy kitties. preventing the drop below 50 will allow you to keep more insulin into the cat which will help bring down the numbers on either side of nadir.
just something to keep in mind because it's sure to come up again.
fwiw, i wouldn't hesitate to take the dose right back up if the reduction doesn't look like it's holding.
just a few thoughts... hope they make sense and you don't mind the intrusion. :mrgreen:
Lexifilly1
Member Since 2013
Thanks for this info on the time Lantus needs to build and drop out of the cats system. I have asked about it before though I was so close to regulation now I am back in low 300s. I was given similar info., but this roller coaster ride is making me paranoid, Dorothy, with Meow Man - now suffering from neuropathy 
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Thanks for the info Jill, I appreciate it very much.
Lucian's 2.0F and 2.25S is the same thing, Somewhere between 2.0 and 2.25, I just changed the wording because I could see no difference and didn't know what to call it. There was no light between the plunger and line, as there should be for a 2.25, know what I'm saying? So that wasn't actually a reduction. That actually started with me not being able to get an accurate dose for a couple cycles and just held it there for a couple more, since it wasn't having a negative effect.
What I'm seeing, is that I should have stayed at 2.0 and not gone to 1.75? If that's the case, I need to take him back up because he doesn't recover well. His preshots are getting higher each time on 1.75, but I thought it was necessary to keep it a minimum of 6 cycles. What do you suggest with that?
I understand the idea of keeping him from earning another reduction, right after an earned reduction and will keep that in mind for next time. Thank you for that, it's not explained in the info very well, or I just didn't catch it.
Thanks again Jill. Please feel free to step in anytime.
Lucian's 2.0F and 2.25S is the same thing, Somewhere between 2.0 and 2.25, I just changed the wording because I could see no difference and didn't know what to call it. There was no light between the plunger and line, as there should be for a 2.25, know what I'm saying? So that wasn't actually a reduction. That actually started with me not being able to get an accurate dose for a couple cycles and just held it there for a couple more, since it wasn't having a negative effect.
What I'm seeing, is that I should have stayed at 2.0 and not gone to 1.75? If that's the case, I need to take him back up because he doesn't recover well. His preshots are getting higher each time on 1.75, but I thought it was necessary to keep it a minimum of 6 cycles. What do you suggest with that?
I understand the idea of keeping him from earning another reduction, right after an earned reduction and will keep that in mind for next time. Thank you for that, it's not explained in the info very well, or I just didn't catch it.
Thanks again Jill. Please feel free to step in anytime.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
First off sorry for not hanging out over here more...Trying to get all my Spring Cleaning done before this Friday because the 10th is my birthday and DH is being very cryptic about what is in the works so I'm not letting him plan a surprise party and have people showing up at a dirty house...lol
Anywho, yes I would take him back to 2u and hold there, I think you are just about to his ideal dose so now it is going to take just a little fine tuning, so when he does earn reductions instead of going down a full .25u you are going to want to start doing very same decrease of like a drop at a time. So if he would earn a reduction this time at 2u you would want to take him down to 1.9 then 1.8 etc.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Anywho, yes I would take him back to 2u and hold there, I think you are just about to his ideal dose so now it is going to take just a little fine tuning, so when he does earn reductions instead of going down a full .25u you are going to want to start doing very same decrease of like a drop at a time. So if he would earn a reduction this time at 2u you would want to take him down to 1.9 then 1.8 etc.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Jill & Alex (GA)
Member Since 2009
you're welcome.nckitties3 said:
gotcha. those in-between doses are a bear to measure. i'm never quite sure what to call them myself and i've been "doing this" for a long time. :lol:
technically, he did earn the reduction so i would never say you "should have" stayed with 2.0 units. given lucian's history/response and knowing there was some residual action from the depot left over which influenced the dose... personally, i would have stuck with 2u bid.nckitties3 said:
it's not necessary to hold a reduction for 6 cycles. there is no "settling time" when it comes to reductions. if you feel the reduction is not holding you can take the dose right back up at any time.
that said, we encourage caregivers who are new to lantus/levemir use and to feline diabetes in general to allow six cycles for a bounce to clear before taking the dose back up. this allows new caregivers to collect data and learn such things as how long it takes for their cat to clear a bounce, but you're not new and with as much as you test... you know better than anybody how lucian responds to insulin. if it looks to you like the reduction has failed don't hesitate to bring the dose right back up.
fwiw, i'd see what he does today. i wouldn't take the dose back up tonight "if" he begins to clear the bounce and his numbers are dropping all day. if you increase while he's dropping, there will be a little extra push on the increased dose and you could be up all night steering the curve, BUT it's your call.
you didn't miss anything in the info. it's not a subject that's explained because it's born from trial & error, lots of experience, and does not apply to each and every cat.nckitties3 said:
have to run. i overslept this morning and am running late for work. :roll:
hope you have a good day!
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Thanks Mel and Jill!
I'll see what he does today and decide tonight. I HAVE to be at my attorney's tomorrow and will leave here at Lucian's +4 and not return until +7or8, so not sure how I'll handle that yet, as far as increasing him. That would be the one day he would go low. But so far, with his pre shot tests, he needs to go back up to 2. I messed up. Since he was at a fat 2, I figured the logical reduction would be to 1.75.
Mel! 1.9? 1.8? I couldn't hit the .25 and you want me to find a .9? :lol: What have you been drinking? :lol: Kidding aside, I thought those tiny dose changes were for when they were down to less than .25, like you have done with Autumn. Would it make a difference when a cat is getting 2U? Just don't understand that one. Help Didn't seem to make a difference when he went from 2.25 to a fat 2, that's why I ask.
Jill, I hate to burst your bubble, but I have no idea how Lucian responds to his insulin. :sad: It's never the same way twice, which is why we refer to him as "Predictably Unpredictable". :shock: The only pattern I have seen is green----->black. He seems to think those colors coordinate. :lol: He's either scuba diving or mountain climbing. ohmygod_smile
Thanks ya'll, I do appreciate it. :YMHUG:
I'll see what he does today and decide tonight. I HAVE to be at my attorney's tomorrow and will leave here at Lucian's +4 and not return until +7or8, so not sure how I'll handle that yet, as far as increasing him. That would be the one day he would go low.
But so far, with his pre shot tests, he needs to go back up to 2. I messed up. Since he was at a fat 2, I figured the logical reduction would be to 1.75.Mel! 1.9? 1.8? I couldn't hit the .25 and you want me to find a .9? :lol: What have you been drinking? :lol: Kidding aside, I thought those tiny dose changes were for when they were down to less than .25, like you have done with Autumn. Would it make a difference when a cat is getting 2U? Just don't understand that one. Help
Didn't seem to make a difference when he went from 2.25 to a fat 2, that's why I ask.Jill, I hate to burst your bubble, but I have no idea how Lucian responds to his insulin. :sad: It's never the same way twice, which is why we refer to him as "Predictably Unpredictable". :shock: The only pattern I have seen is green----->black. He seems to think those colors coordinate. :lol: He's either scuba diving or mountain climbing. ohmygod_smile
Thanks ya'll, I do appreciate it. :YMHUG:
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