5/31-6/3 Harley 1.5u - Split Dosing and Afterwards

Status
Not open for further replies.
Laura and Harley (GA)

Laura and Harley (GA)

Member Since 2011
Hi everyone -- Harley's up to 1.5u bid and we've been seeing some nice mid-cycle high blues. :-) I have to work later tonight so I split his AM dose and gave 0.75u at the usual AM shot time and 0.75u 2 hours later. So my PM shot will be 8 PM Central time, USA - 2 hours later than it usually is.

Since the PM shot will be on a cycle that is only 10 hours long, I divided 1.5u by 12 hours and multiplied by 10 to get 1.25u. Does this sound like a reasonable dose?
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

I went ahead and gave 1.25u at 8 PM. My bad for not asking this question over the weekend; this late work day kind of snuck up on me. :(

I will have to work late next Thursday and Friday so I plan on moving his shot times forward on Thursday from 6 am / 6 pm to 8 am / 8 pm and staying there both days and then dropping back on Saturday.

Lovin' the duration today. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Hi Laura,
Sorry I was at work today and don't have online access there.

As I understand it, you have to give his shot tomorrow/Wednesday at 6AM like normal? So you made exactly the right call to reduce like you did. You can either figure it like you did or make a percentage decrease, I use 15%, which decreasing from 1.5 to 1.25 is a little more than 16%, so you're pretty much right on the money.

I'm glad you gave this a try. It really and truly does work, but doing an earlier shot is the trickier part, so you did good to reduce the dose for that.

You should be able to do exactly the same thing next week.

Bravo for giving this technique a chance. It sure makes life easier for me and I hope it will for you too.
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Vicky & Gandalf said:
Hi Laura,
Sorry I was at work today and don't have online access there.

As I understand it, you have to give his shot tomorrow/Wednesday at 6AM like normal? So you made exactly the right call to reduce like you did. You can either figure it like you did or make a percentage decrease, I use 15%, which decreasing from 1.5 to 1.25 is a little more than 16%, so you're pretty much right on the money.

I'm glad you gave this a try. It really and truly does work, but doing an earlier shot is the trickier part, so you did good to reduce the dose for that.

You should be able to do exactly the same thing next week.

Bravo for giving this technique a chance. It sure makes life easier for me and I hope it will for you too.
Click to expand...

Omigod - PHEW! Thank you, Vicky, for your fast response. You have nothing to apologize for. I should not have waited until the last minute or last day to ask. I'd been considering doing this for some time and finally took the plunge now while Harley's numbers are still high enough that I knew he would be safe while I'm gone.

And yes, I do have to give his shot at 6 AM tomorrow so tonight's cycle is shortened by 2 hours. I don't have a lot of +10 tests on the 1.25u dose, but he is typically on the rise around then.

Thank you for sharing this tool with us. When I read what you and Sheila did for Peggy and Mickey and also read the TT topic on split dosing, I knew I wanted to try it but do so in a manor that was safe.

The easy part is the splitting, it's the dose reduction part that had me stumped. Luckily the method I used produced a number that was easy to measure. So the shed will take a hit for a day. I expect to see higher numbers tomorrow or the next day. C'est la Vie.

How do you know how much to reduce by? Is it always 15% or does this vary?
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

How do you know how much to reduce by? Is it always 15% or does this vary?
Click to expand...

I just guessed! I actually like your method because it's a formula. Originally I just reduced from 1.3 to 1.1, figuring that had to be enough, which is .2 or 15% of 1.3U. So since it worked I thought 15% was a good amount when dose is over 1U.

If someone's dose was 2U, then by your method it would be reduced to about 1.66U, which would be hard to measure, so a skinny 1.75U would probably be close.

If the dose was .9U, by your method the reduced dose would be .75U, because the spread between the doses would get smaller as the original doses get smaller.

I actually like it! From .5U would be .41U! Doing it my way, 15% less, would be .42U. It's about the same either way, but even though we shouldn't think of units in terms of hours, it is a formula that makes sense mathematically, divide by the hours of a regular cycle then multiply by hours in shorter cycle.

So just keep doing it with your method and if it's OK, we'll adopt it!
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Cool! And here I made the formula up on the fly. drinking09
It does sound kind of neat, in theory. This should prove to be an interesting experiment. Thanks for all your help!

Purrs and rubs to birthday boy Gandalf - yes it's still his month for one hour more. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

I bow to Vicky on split dosing stuff. I know the basics and that it works, but I could not give any better suggestions than she did. Seems like you have a good handle on the concept - been studying!

Be sure to let us know how his numbers are for the next few days so we can see how this worked for him. As you pointed out, there will most likely be some "less than optimal" numbers as he copes with the dose and time changes.
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
I bow to Vicky on split dosing stuff.
Click to expand...

Me too!!! :thumbup

Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Seems like you have a good handle on the concept - been studying!
Click to expand...

Thank you. I studied Gandalf's SS, the TT topic on split dosing and the custom schedule you ladies put together for Peggy and Mickey and I must say that last one still has me scratching my head. You two are amazing!!

Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Be sure to let us know how his numbers are for the next few days so we can see how this worked for him. As you pointed out, there will most likely be some "less than optimal" numbers as he copes with the dose and time changes.
Click to expand...

Last night: PMPS=266
+3=235
...and then I fell into bed forgetting to put out the overnight meal.

His Majesty and civvie, Princess, got me out of bed at 4:30 a.m. (+8.5) demanding food for their little IBD bellies so I fed and rolled back into bed. No test, for which I'm kicking myself.

His AMPS was 264 and this was 1.5 hours after food. (Just a friendly reminder, I'm feeding 10-15% carb. food that's lower in fat.) His AMPS would have been lower had I not fed, but I gotta make some compromises for health conditions - and my furniture! If Princess doesn't eat every 4 hours or so, the sweetest little kitty turns into Gozer the Destructor.

So far I'm pleased. We'll see what his +6 is at Noon.
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Laura, I should have told you to reduce the AM shot too, that's what I usually do when I have to do a shot at +10, I reduce the shot prior to needing to do the +10, then stay at that dose for the shot that's at the +10. I don't raise it back to the previous/regular dose until we're back to the regular 12/12 cycle.

No harm though. His spreadsheet looks really good with the lowering numbers corresponding with his increasing dose. That's the way it should work & look when they need more insulin. He doesn't have any bouncing going on either. It's almost a textbook example of how to raise and what type of cycles indicate needing more insulin. Also you're going very slowly, which is yielding the right results.

And the split dose sure looked to me like it worked! No unusual numbers.

FYI, if you get green off the +10 1.5U dose today, you might consider raising to 1.75U. Earlier shot = more insulin effect, as if you'd actually given a larger dose.

Very impressed. :thumbup
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Vicky & Gandalf said:
Laura, I should have told you to reduce the AM shot too, that's what I usually do when I have to do a shot at +10, I reduce the shot prior to needing to do the +10, then stay at that dose for the shot that's at the +10. I don't raise it back to the previous/regular dose until we're back to the regular 12/12 cycle.

No harm though. His spreadsheet looks really good with the lowering numbers corresponding with his increasing dose. That's the way it should work & look when they need more insulin. He doesn't have any bouncing going on either. It's almost a textbook example of how to raise and what type of cycles indicate needing more insulin. Also you're going very slowly, which is yielding the right results.

And the split dose sure looked to me like it worked! No unusual numbers.

FYI, if you get green off the +10 1.5U dose today, you might consider raising to 1.75U. Earlier shot = more insulin effect, as if you'd actually given a larger dose.

Very impressed. :thumbup
Click to expand...

Thanks Vicky! Thanks for explaining the lowered +6 today - I was a little concerned. Not that I don't like the numbers and don't want him to see green today, it's just a little too soon for him. I learned my lesson with him on the PZI - anything below 100 sends him into a panic. Whether it's just his personal comfort level, his sensitivity to the dropping numbers, 5 months of being over-dosed on Vetsulin, or perhaps Ilkka's theory on the BG set-point needing to gradually reprogram itself, or a combination of all of the above. I came home at Noon to find he'd opened the cupboard door and dumped cans of food onto the floor and was in the den chewing on thread from an old ratty sofa. He's scared and I don't blame him. I've had to take things slow for his sake to get him acclimated to the slowly falling BGs. So to avoid greens today I put a few EVO kibbles in his auto-feeder for this afternoon. A low blue surf is all I'm asking for at this point and he may still bounce from it like he did a few days ago. But the bounce wasn't too high because I didn't let the numbers get super low.

It's so good to know that the Levemir is working for him and that he is responding so well to it. I will have to be patient a little while longer. But boy it's hard sometimes!
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Hey, thanks for dropping by Kim and Miss Super Cool Kitty!

PMPS=283. Non EVO induced - he didn't touch the kibble in the feeder. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

I'm too tired to comment on doses, etc., but I think there is something to the long period of time he was on vetsulin and PZI where you say he was OD causing a higher "panic" threshold. Beau was the same way. Every once n a while (on vetsulin) I would see a glimpse of a decent cycle but couldn't seem to really get him settled at any one good dose or sliding scale of doses. I did find that reducing slowly sort of led him down the numbers ladder. That definitely worked on lev. I think it has to come after some lower numbers than you are seeing with Harley right now, but there is no reason to rush to process and risk losing some ground. The numbers look good right now.
 
Re: 5/31 Harley 1.5u - ?? on Split Dosing Today

Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
I think there is something to the long period of time he was on vetsulin and PZI where you say he was OD causing a higher "panic" threshold. Beau was the same way. Every once n a while (on vetsulin) I would see a glimpse of a decent cycle but couldn't seem to really get him settled at any one good dose or sliding scale of doses. I did find that reducing slowly sort of led him down the numbers ladder. That definitely worked on lev. I think it has to come after some lower numbers than you are seeing with Harley right now, but there is no reason to rush to process and risk losing some ground. The numbers look good right now.
Click to expand...

Oh Sheila thank you so much for sharing Beau's experience - so Harley isn't the first cat this has happened to. That really helps so I know I'm not crazy (well, OK I am but it's a flaw and I'm working in it. :smile: ) but poor Harley isn't crazy. He has good reason to fear the insulin and good reason not to trust me. Most of the time on vetsulin and about 1 month into the PZI he'd hide from me, cry, or try to bite my hand when I gave the shot. Now he lets me give the shot, but he looks up at me plaintively as if to say "Please don't hurt me, please keep me safe." And I really try hard not to push him past what he can take but at the same time if I don't raise the doses little by little, he will lose ground. It's so heartbreaking to see when he's making progress and the numbers are good (not dangerous at all) but he's freaking out as though he's in immenent hypo danger and I can't tell him that it's OK, I'll keep him safe. Sorry, I get so emotional when it comes to this topic because he's my fur baby. Occupational hazard of dancing with a sugar cat. I feel what he feels and vice versa. :YMSIGH:

On to cheerier topics - yesterday was a very good day numbers-wise. That full dose +10 shot seemed to yield results a day later - AM cycle almost all blues!

6/1
PMPS=283
+2=280
+4=122
Left 1/2 can food out overnight for snacking

6/2
AMPS=190 (his first blue PS!)
+6=162
PMPS=205
+2=199
+4=166
+8=227

6/3
AMPS=241
+6=221
PMPS=264

Harley was knocking food cans out of the cupboard during the day yesterday so he was a bit stressed. But on the other hand he was also very purry after having been fed. cat_pet_icon

EDIT: Today I'm wondering if we're seeing some shed drain from the reduced dose? The numbers are still in range so I don't think it's a bounce.

Thinking on raising to 1.75u tonight when I can keep an eye on him this weekend.
 
It can also be the very fact of doing dose/time changes in themselves. I almost always see a reaction at some point after doing splits, within 2 days is typical.

I see you already raised to 1.75U. I think I said if you saw lower numbers from the +10 shot that would mean he needs a bit more. So good that you went ahead with the increase.

I hope he doesn't get too worried the first time he has green!! I love how you describe he looks at you. Poor baby. I swear they really do remember things.
 
I can almost predict the meter number based on how fussy Jeddie is at test time - the fussier the lower the number. Usually it is in the morning and I wonder if he was a lot lower overnight. With Beau there was never any difference in how he acted about testing and shots in relation to his numbers. ECID, as they say!

Oh, and craziness is not a flaw - it builds character!
 
Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
I can almost predict the meter number based on how fussy Jeddie is at test time - the fussier the lower the number. Usually it is in the morning and I wonder if he was a lot lower overnight. With Beau there was never any difference in how he acted about testing and shots in relation to his numbers. ECID, as they say!

Oh, and craziness is not a flaw - it builds character!
Click to expand...


LOL - whose character, Sheila. Hers or the cat's?! :lol:
 
:lol: I enjoyed reading this thread.
Laura, you're doing an awesome job with Harley's numbers. It's wonderful that split dosing is working so well for you guys!
 
Oh my goodness, I see he had green today!!! I hope he didn't panic.

That's his first green on Lev, isn't it?? Congratulations to Harley!

It seems a little too soon since the dose change, so I'm wondering if maybe you should back off the 1.75U just slightly, maybe make it a skinny 1.75U? Do you think you can measure that?

Way to go though, Harley! flip_cat
 
Vicky & Gandalf said:
Oh my goodness, I see he had green today!!! I hope he didn't panic.

That's his first green on Lev, isn't it?? Congratulations to Harley!

It seems a little too soon since the dose change, so I'm wondering if maybe you should back off the 1.75U just slightly, maybe make it a skinny 1.75U? Do you think you can measure that?

Way to go though, Harley! flip_cat
Click to expand...

Yes!!! at +6 on 6/4 there was a green = 86.

But I agree this is a bit too soon for him although it's typical for him lately to show response to a dose increase the first or second cycle after a dose increase and then lose ground after that.

So I've opened up a new thread with a more general question on regulation with Levemir. I'm not sure if the patterns I'm seeing are good, bad, indifferent or ECID.

One thing I do know is I need to drop back the dose and take stock of the situation. Harley has not been quite himself since I started raising doses after 1.25u. That 86 yesterday came along with a very soft runny pudding poop in the AM and 2 instances of meatloafing during the day. A low number is not always a thing to celebrate especially in Harley's case because it can signify a stressed pancreas getting ready to explode.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top