5/28 - Gryphen - BG super high today - feeling defeated

[bobjoh]

(previous) 5/14 - Gryphen - OTJ 12 days - advice please | Feline Diabetes Message Board - FDMB

Feeling very defeated today, and also feeling very bad for Gryphen.

The vomiting finally stopped; no magic, it just quit. She still wouldn't eat anything wet, and especially nothing low phosphorous. So, we stuck with the YA Zero Mature LID. But, she allergic to it. She started licking little bald spots all over herself, and had soft stools. Yesterday, I saw her potty and she had really runny poo.

I was hoping to hold off on any diet changes until after her dental. After speaking with her vet, and talking about what you all advised here, we decided to stay OTJ, since she'd been holding steady in the low 100s on the AT2 (high 90s on a human meter).

But after the poo incident yesterday, and noticing she's been drinking more (probably dehydrated), I switched her food (that was a last resort if she kept getting worse). Tried wet; no luck. Tried Dr. Elsey's again, and she ate like she was starving (I originally though she was allergic to the DE, but apparently it was the YA all along).

Anyway, tested her urine yesterday, no glucose.

HUGE urine clumps today, and glucose in the urine. BG was over 200 at one point today.

25 days OTJ and a single day of DE pushed her right out of remission.

I'm feeling so defeated. I don't know what to do for her. Between the diabetes, the beginning CKD, and the allergies, I'm at a loss. She won't eat anything that I try, except what's bad for her. I know people on the board deal with so much more than what I am dealing with right now, but I feel horrible, since I did this, and I can't fix it.

We'll start all over, obviously, but waiting for the vet to call me back and come up with a plan as to what dose to start again, etc. Hopefully she calls today.

Everyone hug your babies tight tonight!

 

[Sue and Luci]

Must be more to this than meets the eye. I apologize because I've been away and haven't been following what's going on with Gryphen.

May I ask why he is OTJ? I don't see the 14 day trial - where kitty is mostly under 100.

 

[tiffmaxee]

On 5/14 we suggested you give done insulin. He wasn’t ready to go OTJ so although I’m sorry you are feeling defeated I still think insulin was needed and still is.

 

[bobjoh]

May I ask why he is OTJ? I don't see the 14 day trial - where kitty is mostly under 100.

OTJ was an 'accident' due to a bout of sickness...lots of vomiting, not eating, etc.

We weren't really ready yet, but my AT2 numbers were within normal range (under 150) and with everything that was going on my vet felt it was ok to keep her off. She just recently stopped vomiting and started eating.

 

[bobjoh]

On 5/14 we suggested you give done insulin. He wasn’t ready to go OTJ so although I’m sorry you are feeling defeated I still think insulin was needed and still is.

I realize you all said that, and I mentioned that in my post.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

(previous) 5/14 - Gryphen - OTJ 12 days - advice please | Feline Diabetes Message Board - FDMB

Feeling very defeated today, and also feeling very bad for Gryphen.

The vomiting finally stopped; no magic, it just quit. She still wouldn't eat anything wet, and especially nothing low phosphorous. So, we stuck with the YA Zero Mature LID. But, she allergic to it. She started licking little bald spots all over herself, and had soft stools. Yesterday, I saw her potty and she had really runny poo.

I was hoping to hold off on any diet changes until after her dental. After speaking with her vet, and talking about what you all advised here, we decided to stay OTJ, since she'd been holding steady in the low 100s on the AT2 (high 90s on a human meter).

But after the poo incident yesterday, and noticing she's been drinking more (probably dehydrated), I switched her food (that was a last resort if she kept getting worse). Tried wet; no luck. Tried Dr. Elsey's again, and she ate like she was starving (I originally though she was allergic to the DE, but apparently it was the YA all along).

Anyway, tested her urine yesterday, no glucose.

HUGE urine clumps today, and glucose in the urine. BG was over 200 at one point today.

25 days OTJ and a single day of DE pushed her right out of remission.

I'm feeling so defeated. I don't know what to do for her. Between the diabetes, the beginning CKD, and the allergies, I'm at a loss. She won't eat anything that I try, except what's bad for her. I know people on the board deal with so much more than what I am dealing with right now, but I feel horrible, since I did this, and I can't fix it.

We'll start all over, obviously, but waiting for the vet to call me back and come up with a plan as to what dose to start again, etc. Hopefully she calls today.

Everyone hug your babies tight tonight!

I'm sorry you're struggling right now. I think you can fix this, though.
I can't remember what her allergies are but can you try a homemade diet for her with a premix in it? Food Fur Life, TC Feline and Alnutrin are some of the premixes that are out there. FFL is lower in P, TC Feline and Alnutrin both have premix options that are lower in P. They all have sample sizes you can get. Have you ever tried to feed her foods like boiled chicken or other meat if she is allergic to chicken? If she likes that, maybe see if you can sneak some premix into it, for example? Just an idea. I started switching butters after her CKD dx. I did it by sneaking some premix into cooked ground pork. Eventually I got her eating all different raw meats but it took over two months. It takes that or longer to get some kitties to switch. Sometimes I still have to open a can of food for her that is higher in phosphorus when she is being fussy (usually when she is not feeling well). Not ideal, but it is more important that they eat, right? If she has to have DE, you can adjust the insulin dose accordingly if it drives up her BG.

You're doing the best that you can for your girl. Cut yourself a break.

 

[bobjoh]

I can't remember what her allergies are but can you try a homemade diet for her with a premix in it? Food Fur Life, TC Feline and Alnutrin are some of the premixes that are out there. FFL is lower in P, TC Feline and Alnutrin both have premix options that are lower in P. They all have sample sizes you can get. Have you ever tried to feed her foods like boiled chicken or other meat if she is allergic to chicken? If she likes that, maybe see if you can sneak some premix into it, for example? Just an idea. I started switching butters after her CKD dx. I did it by sneaking some premix into cooked ground pork. Eventually I got her eating all different raw meats but it took over two months. It takes that or longer to get some kitties to switch. Sometimes I still have to open a can of food for her that is higher in phosphorus when she is being fussy (usually when she is not feeling well). Not ideal, but it is more important that they eat, right? If she has to have DE, you can adjust the insulin dose accordingly if it drives up her BG.

You're doing the best that you can for your girl. Cut yourself a break.

Gryphen is such an odd duck...she actually hates all people food. I have seen her eat a piece of turkey at Thanksgiving - once - so that might be a good place for me to start. Oddly, she's not allergic to any proteins (at least according to the test, which I know isn't 100% accurate), but is instead allergic to the other things in various foods (potato, tomato, corn, etc.). None of those things are actually in the YA food, but it could be the yeast, or a supplement, I suppose. I think I will have to go the homemade food route, since nothing else seems to work

Thank you for the suggestions, I truly appreciate them, and I will most definitely look in to them! I feel like I just keep running in to walls...if it's not one cat, it's the other. Again, I know this is a marathon, not a sprint, but I'm just SO TIRED of all the running.

Thank you again, so very much!

 

[bobjoh]

Have you ever tried to feed her foods like boiled chicken or other meat if she is allergic to chicken? If she likes that, maybe see if you can sneak some premix into it, for example? Just an idea. I started switching butters after her CKD dx. I did it by sneaking some premix into cooked ground pork.

@Butters & Lyla

Thanks again for the info! I was looking at the FFL site, and ordered a sample of the premix. Is it really as easy as it sounds on their website? Get some ground meat, cook it (or not), and add the premix? That seems far too easy... I know you mentioned you feed raw, but how did you prepare the ground pork? Any special tricks - oven, frying pan, instant pot? I don't eat meat, so although I know how to cook meat, it's been MANY years, and I was a spice queen, which would not apply to this situation!!

Obviously the transition is going to take time (so simple is relative), especially with how picky Gryphen is, but all the other sites I've looked at have about a 90 step process to making your own food. In the meantime, I'm trying to find ANY wet food she will eat...low phosphorous or not...because her BG numbers are out of control with the DE. It's only been 2 days, and we are as high as when we started back in January. Oddly enough, she must feel better than when she was on the YA...she was a bit frisky this morning. I guess high BG (for her) is better than being itchy and such.

My vet did call me back yesterday and she does not want me to put Gryphen back on insulin yet. We started her on transdermal hydroxyzine for the itching a few days ago, and she thinks that may have something to do with why she's spiking, too. It could also explain the big urine clumps, since it can affect urine retention. I'm wondering if, like me, my vet is hoping the dental in a few weeks might solve some issues? I'm not convinced, since she has no signs of a painful mouth, but it would be nice if something did actually do some good.

Thank you again!!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I use FFL. I make a batch (2 lbs) of ground pork. I add water to the premix, stir it up, add the pork, make sure it's thoroughly mixed in, portion it in ice cube trays, and freeze it so I can take out what I need for the day. It's as simple as it sounds.

There are some other foods that do not have the additional "stuff." I'd suggest taking a look at ZiwiPeak. They have both canned food and air dried food (it looks like jerky or kind of like kibble but it's air dried raw). They have novel proteins, too. One of my cats has IBD and they both love the venison. Stella & Chewy's also has freeze dried raw. This is a link to their rabbit variety. There are no peas, lentils, or potatoes. The only thing that could be an issue is that it contains pumpkin seeds. It's also very low in carbs.

 

[Katherine&Ruby]

I also use EZ Complete from FFL. My cats love it, if they've decided that they are eating, that is. I have tried Alnutrin that has a much blander profile because it doesn't contain liver or a source of Omega 3s (you have to add that in or else the food will not be balanced with Alnutrin) and they don't like it as much as the freeze-dried liver and green lipped mussel laden EZ Complete. If you're starting out and don't want to invest a lot of money into the experiment, you can buy good quality ground meat from Whole Foods and mix it in. Stick to the vacuum sealed packages of ground meat rather than the ones in cling film on a tray as the sealed packages will have less likelihood of bacterial overgrowth. The Food for Life website has great tips for transitioning. Since starting Ruby on raw food, her kidney values have gone down and it keeps her BGs low, so I'm a big fan of raw feeding!

Currently there is a shortage of EZ Complete because their eggshell calcium supplier has had a COVID related delay, so they are only selling to their regular customers. But write to them to ask for the sample. Laurie, who runs the company and the Raw Feeding for IBD Kitties website and Facebook group, is very forthcoming with answers to questions about EZC and raw feeding in general. She's a terrific resource and knows all about the health issues senior kitties face.

I empathize with your struggle. You will figure it out.

 

[bobjoh]

It's as simple as it sounds.

I'd suggest taking a look at ZiwiPeak.

Thank you!!!

We've tried the chicken ZiwiPeak dry (hit and miss...sometimes successful if I add FortiFlora) and they are sending me a lamb sample. I'll look in to the Stella & Chewy... I thought I read you can either reconstitute it or feed as-is?

Thanks again!

 

[bobjoh]

I also use EZ Complete from FFL. If you're starting out and don't want to invest a lot of money into the experiment, you can buy good quality ground meat from Whole Foods and mix it in. Stick to the vacuum sealed packages of ground meat rather than the ones in cling film on a tray as the sealed packages will have less likelihood of bacterial overgrowth. The Food for Life website has great tips for transitioning. Since starting Ruby on raw food, her kidney values have gone down and it keeps her BGs low, so I'm a big fan of raw feeding!

One bad thing about living in ND (oh, who am I kidding, there are lots of things!!) is that we dont have a lot of the 'good' stores like WF or Trader Joe's. But we have a lot of butcher shops, so Im sure I can find something! Ha!! We just got a Natural Grocers, so I might get lucky.

Thanks so much!

 

[Katherine&Ruby]

One bad thing about living in ND (oh, who am I kidding, there are lots of things!!) is that we dont have a lot of the 'good' stores like WF or Trader Joe's. But we have a lot of butcher shops, so Im sure I can find something! Ha!! We just got a Natural Grocers, so I might get lucky.

Thanks so much!

A butcher shop is even better because then you know the food is fresh and hasn't been sitting in a semi-cold refrigerator for who knows how many days! A natural grocer should have small vacuum sealed packages of ground meats.

 

[bobjoh]

A butcher shop is even better because then you know the food is fresh

I put feelers out to several local butcher shops...one website says they have different things like rabbit, so fingers crossed!!!

 

[Katherine&Ruby]

one website says they have different things like rabbit

Ooooh, I wish I could get my hands on rabbit! It's hard to get boneless ground rabbit from raw pet food purveyors (I think it's because they have tiny bones, labor intensive) and when you can it's expensive. I've had an easier time sourcing bison and venison that are also good novel proteins.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

@Butters & Lyla

Thanks again for the info! I was looking at the FFL site, and ordered a sample of the premix. Is it really as easy as it sounds on their website? Get some ground meat, cook it (or not), and add the premix? That seems far too easy... I know you mentioned you feed raw, but how did you prepare the ground pork? Any special tricks - oven, frying pan, instant pot? I don't eat meat, so although I know how to cook meat, it's been MANY years, and I was a spice queen, which would not apply to this situation!!

Obviously the transition is going to take time (so simple is relative), especially with how picky Gryphen is, but all the other sites I've looked at have about a 90 step process to making your own food. In the meantime, I'm trying to find ANY wet food she will eat...low phosphorous or not...because her BG numbers are out of control with the DE. It's only been 2 days, and we are as high as when we started back in January. Oddly enough, she must feel better than when she was on the YA...she was a bit frisky this morning. I guess high BG (for her) is better than being itchy and such.

My vet did call me back yesterday and she does not want me to put Gryphen back on insulin yet. We started her on transdermal hydroxyzine for the itching a few days ago, and she thinks that may have something to do with why she's spiking, too. It could also explain the big urine clumps, since it can affect urine retention. I'm wondering if, like me, my vet is hoping the dental in a few weeks might solve some issues? I'm not convinced, since she has no signs of a painful mouth, but it would be nice if something did actually do some good.

Thank you again!!

Amazing! Yes. it is as easy as it sounds!

Do you have Feline Natural brand in ND or can you try getting that online? They have canned and freeze-dried raw options. Like Ziwi, it has very limited ingredients in it and they also use green lipped mussel, no tuna or anything like that. Just another thought as an option for you.

I don't cook meat for myself but I've had much experience cooking ground pork for Butters. I do it in a stainless steel frying pan and use a stainless spatula to chop at it and stir it as it cooks. Do not add anything to it (lol) and do not add the premix until it is cooked (and cooled, I think). You'll see when it turns from raw to cooked in the pan, and you want to make sure that there is no pink/raw looking bits left. I always cook it a few minutes more than I think I need, just to be safe. This is probably more important for humans than for cats, seeing as they'd eat it raw. But I'd rather be safe about it. Maybe someone else does something different.

I know you said that the transition will take time, and it will. I was literally sneaking 1/8 of a tsp into her old food to start. Anything more and she would turn her nose up at it. The FFL website has some great tips on transitioning. Besides the pickiness, you want to avoid possible tummy upset from going too fast. I'm sure you know this. Stay the course. Better to go super slow and get the transition to be successful than trying to go too fast, imho. Like I said, two months with Butters.

 

[bobjoh]

Do you have Feline Natural brand in ND or can you try getting that online? They have canned and freeze-dried raw options. Like Ziwi, it has very limited ingredients in it and they also use green lipped mussel, no tuna or anything like that. Just another thought as an option for you.

I am not sure on the FN brand, but I'll look in to it. Thank you again!!