5-23 Mijo UTI. AMPS HI. +2 HI

DaveL

DaveL

Member
Hello- Moving over from the Lantus board as I am possibly looking to switch to Lantus down the line. He is strickly on Weruva BFF wetfood at the moment. I switched over from Royal Canin Renal.

I am down to 52. Gave a tiny bit of syrup and some high carb dry food! Let me know please your thoughts. I assume i will need another drop. i was at 2 to 1.75 to 1.5 this morning.

Here was my previous thread for details.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/5-21-mijo-amps-519.277722/#post-3073309
 
I use the Weruva BFF PLAY foods as well in a lot of my cats. Have you tried the Chicken, Duck and Turkey Take a Chance flavor? Or the Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud?

If your kitty is reluctant to eat it, have you tried using feline Forti Flora on it? It comes in a little packet that you can sprinkle on top or just mix into the food. Many cats LOVE it.
 
No I haven't heard of Forti Flora I will definitely try it. He is not eating the BFF Play very good, but he does like BFF OMG some of them. Yes he is bouncing a bit after the 52. I probably shouldn't have given him a teaspoon of syrup. I am very new to this process and haven't gotten use to the low numbers yet...

He seems to have been getting pretty low the past few days after i switched to full wet Weurva. I will take the reduction again tonight, but hopefully he will start to regulate soon!
 
Dave, I see your baby is diving early in the cycle. Are you giving small snacks early in the cycle — even at +1, +2, +3? You may even need to experiment with giving a little more carbs (either closer to ten percent or even medium carb of around 15 percent) to slow down the steep drops.
 
DaveL said:
No I haven't heard of Forti Flora I will definitely try it. He is not eating the BFF Play very good, but he does like BFF OMG some of them. Yes he is bouncing a bit after the 52. I probably shouldn't have given him a teaspoon of syrup. I am very new to this process and haven't gotten use to the low numbers yet...

He seems to have been getting pretty low the past few days after i switched to full wet Weurva. I will take the reduction again tonight, but hopefully he will start to regulate soon!
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At the 52, you could have tried some of the RC renal food perhaps. It’s all okay. When my cat first went green, I gave him a full can of Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers (not the correct thing to do… too much food.)
 
I had to feed the RC renal foods to my cat and he actually did very well on them. I simply adjusted insulin. But I would try the lower phosphorus foods on that CKD Diabetic Foods list that I have shared here (I believe someone has shared with you).
 
I can definitely try if I can find something he likes. What are people using for treats in those cases? He use to like greenies would that be an option. However, I believe the carb count is crazy high. I stopped giving them to him several months ago.
 
DaveL said:
No I haven't heard of Forti Flora I will definitely try it. He is not eating the BFF Play very good, but he does like BFF OMG some of them. Yes he is bouncing a bit after the 52. I probably shouldn't have given him a teaspoon of syrup. I am very new to this process and haven't gotten use to the low numbers yet...

He seems to have been getting pretty low the past few days after i switched to full wet Weurva. I will take the reduction again tonight, but hopefully he will start to regulate soon!
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The low numbers occurring after you made the switch to Weruva are probably just because of the fact that the Weruva foods are quite low carb. It really will lower BG.
 
Now, to be clear, the feeding schedule that I am recommending right now would be to try feeding him a teaspoon or two of low carb wet food at +1, +2, and +3 (if you are even around to do this — I don’t even know your daily schedule yet.). This can really help them to keep from diving too low. But, as I said, sometimes a little higher carb food is necessary when you are “feeding the curve.” We will soon find out what works with Mijo.
 
Thank you @Suzanne & Darcy really appreciate all the advice. I will see if i can find a higher carb food to feed at those times.

Although his feeding schedule right now is 9AM which is AMPS, 4PM and then 9PM PMPS. He is somewhat of a grazer with the wet food too. But i can see if i can factor in a higher carb wet food to slow down the lows.

I do feed Vital Essentials Minnow and salamon treats, but those are very low in carbs or no carbs i believe.
 
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DaveL said:
Thank you @Suzanne & Darcy really appreciate all the advice. I will see if i can find a higher carb food to feed at those times.

Although his feeding schedule right now is 9AM which is AMPS, 4PM and then 9PM PMPS. He is somewhat of a grazer with the wet food too. But i can see if i can factor in a higher carb wet food to slow down the lows.

I do feed Vital Essentials Minnow and salamon treats, but those are very low in carbs or no carbs i believe.[/QUOTE.
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Well, first I would just try giving a teaspoon of regular low carb food each hour for the first few hours of his cycle (some of the Weruva maybe with Forti Flora sprinkled on top if he’s not that interested.) If that isn’t enough to slow him down, I would then try going with foods that are still low carb bit closer to the 8-10 percent mark. Anything under 10 percent carbs is still considered to be low carb. Some cats do need a little higher carbs early in the cycle— maybe 12 or even 15 percent carbs. I’m sure you can tell that there is a lot of trial and error here. But today, for example, he went from black to blue in three hours. That is a very precipitous drop and virtually guarantees another bounce. Bouncing can occur from cats dropping really fast as well as from being in numbers that their body just isn’t accustomed to. And Mijo is super bouncy right now.
 
I see his evening preshot is black. Please try to give any small foods this evening of regular low carb food at the very least by +2. And see if you can get a before bed test at least. Really, you have been doing great lately! I’m really proud.
 
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DaveL said:
damn and now a HI bounce on his PMPS. This is getting frustrating...
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Yes. It is INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING. I am so sorry. I understand. Please try to slow him down tonight. It can’t hurt. He is very bouncy, or at least it seems like he is. I will check on with you in the morning.
 
Any tests last night? I hope so and maybe you just haven’t recorded them on his spreadsheet yet. I’m also hoping that you tried some teaspoons of food to slew down his usual early dive.
 
Agree with Suzanne 100% - try slowing him down early in the cycle.

Jess was (sorta) the same - she didn't mind the mid to lower greens, it was the early fast drops. I used to look at the percentage of the drop & slow her down with a smidge of 10% as needed & and it usually kept her in good green numbers for the best part of the rest of the cycle.
 
Shelley & Jess said:
Agree with Suzanne 100% - try slowing him down early in the cycle.

Jess was (sorta) the same - she didn't mind the mid to lower greens, it was the early fast drops. I used to look at the percentage of the drop & slow her down with a smidge of 10% as needed & and it usually kept her in good green numbers for the best part of the rest of the cycle.
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Hi Shelley. I’m glad you stopped by. It’s really helpful to share your experiences with Jessie.
 
Hi everyone- Seemed to help last night!! Gave a treat about midnight (small higher carb tiki dry). He doesn't look like he bounced. He stayed in the 150-190 range on his +5 & +6. He is still somewhat higher this morning but not like other days.

Maybe I can find a mid range tierd carb treat to give. Tiki Dry is about 23-24 i believe. So maybe something in the teens and it would work better!


Only darn problem is I may have had a fur shot on the AMPS today. I couldn't tell if I was in. He has such long hair being a Birman it's hard to tell if the needle is in sometimes.
 
DaveL said:
Also is this the Forti Flora you recommend?

https://www.amazon.com/Purina-Veterinary-Fortiflora-Nutritional-Supplement/dp/B001650OE0/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2JZJGHFEHJMPD&keywords=fortiflora+for+cats&qid=1684765392&sprefix=forti+flora+for+cats,aps,109&sr=8-4&th=1
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Yes. That is the Forti-Flora. They market it as a probiotic (and it is, although it only has one strain), but it's real value is as an appetite stimulant because most cats just go crazy for the flavor. It can really help get a reluctant cat to eat food that they otherwise aren't all that keen about eating.
 
DaveL said:
Hi everyone- Seemed to help last night!! Gave a treat about midnight (small higher carb tiki dry). He doesn't look like he bounced. He stayed in the 150-190 range on his +5 & +6. He is still somewhat higher this morning but not like other days.

Maybe I can find a mid range tierd carb treat to give. Tiki Dry is about 23-24 i believe. So maybe something in the teens and it would work better!


Only darn problem is I may have had a fur shot on the AMPS today. I couldn't tell if I was in. He has such long hair being a Birman it's hard to tell if the needle is in sometimes.
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What is your shot time? And time zone?
I'm happy that you are trying the snacks to slow him down. If you had a fur shot you probably would have noticed some wetness on his fur and if you do, smell it on your fingers. Insulin has a very distinctive odor that you would notice if it was a fur shot. I hope today was not, but everybody has a fur shot once in a while. If it becomes a continuing problem, you could clip the fur in that area just a bit (some people will have a spot shaved on the scruff to help them, but you may not need to go that far.) Most likely, you will "hit your stride" with the shots and it won't happen very often (especially if he doesn't move around while you are quickly shooting.)
 
9AM/9PM Central Time- Wisconsin. Possibly moving back to Las Vegas in the fall.

Feed Times- 9am, 4pm, 9pm 3oz cans. He is a bit skinny he lost quite a bit a weight before he got diagnosed he is only 9.1 pounds so I am trying to get him to gain some weight.
 
Darn looks like a fur shot :blackeye: 598 at +2. Right when I had a better night. Do you usually give a small correct (0.25 or 0.5) in this case or leave it alone for the day?

Well looking at the sticky. I guess I would never reshoot.
  • In the case of a fur shot (when you try to inject, but the cat moves, or you were tricked by thick fur, and the insulin ends up on the cat instead of in the cat): Never reshoot when this happens. There’s no way to know how much got into the cat so it’s too risky to do a second shot.
 
DaveL said:
Darn looks like a fur shot :blackeye: 598 at +2. Right when I had a better night. Do you usually give a small correct (0.25 or 0.5) in this case or leave it alone for the day?

Well looking at the sticky. I guess I would never reshoot.
  • In the case of a fur shot (when you try to inject, but the cat moves, or you were tricked by thick fur, and the insulin ends up on the cat instead of in the cat): Never reshoot when this happens. There’s no way to know how much got into the cat so it’s too risky to do a second shot.
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Correct. Don't shoot now. Just wait until tonight. Sorry! Also it would totally mess up the 12 hour schedule. Shot times should be adjusted by no more than 30 minutes per day under most circumstances.
 
Well - all the way down to 74 last night again and he did have a tiny snack. Maybe he didn't eat enough Took the reduction down to 1 this morning. I don't have much room more to go...hopefully he starts to regulate.

It looks like the low carb wet food brought him down a full unit so far. I will give a treat again today to slow down the bounce. No more fur shot today it was definitely clean.
 
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I have had a couple bad days of fur shots as he is getting squirmy. I think I have it down now.

However, he did drop to 79 last night and only up to 172 this morning. I was scared to do the full reduction shot this morning so only did 0.25 shot.

Was that correct? I assume i will need a reduction to 0.75 tonight?

It doesn't seem like he needs very much insulin. However, when i do give it to him I can't seem to keep him above 90 even with a small treat (currently tiki dry food 23% carb) and I am losing a lot of sleep every night testing. I am probably losing 4hrs a night. I need to find a higher carb treat to keep him above 90 that will allow me to give it to him before I go to sleep at night. Any suggestions here?
 
How much are you giving as a treat. 23% carb will normally bring just about any cat up in BG. Did you test 30 minutes after giving the 23% or did you wait a full hour?

Are you giving food at +2? First try something around 10% and then if that doesn't work, try something around 15% carbs.

It was fine to give a reduced dose this morning because we really don't have a lot of spreadsheet data on him when he starts with a blue preshot. I think it's likely that you will get higher numbers from here on in this cycle because he is starting a bounce (prove me wrong, Mijo! ;)) Either way, it's okay that you shot the .25. Just please test so we can actually see what happens in this situation. I'm happy that you're getting the feel of shooting your very fluffy boy! :-)

Definitely go down to .75 units tonight.

I'm sorry about the sleep deprivation. I used to sleep and set alarms to wake and test when I needed to (with cat in bed.) You're still new at this. Hopefully, things will smooth out for you and also, as you gather data, it should be a little more predictable.

He is certainly a bouncing and diving champion. It may be that (at least for now while he's still adjusting to being in lower numbers a portion of the time) that you actually do need to feed him the 23% carb earlier in the cycle -- say at +2 and make if about two spoonsful. He's just starting from such a high place and his rate of drop is so precipitous that it's setting up another bounce right away. Of course, he's also not used to being in blue and green yet.
 
AMPS 174, +2 176, +4 117 and gave small amount of treats (23% carb)
+5.5 156

Doing good so far. I pray he doesn't bounce now!!
 
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Hi there. Sorry about the bounce. I see that he has a UTI. That can raise numbers, so as his UTI clears (hopefully) his numbers may come down. That means just keep a very careful watch on his numbers. I see you got a Convenia injection. I'm definitely not a fan of Convenia injections for a lot of reasons, but in this case I hope it will work. One problem with Convenia is that is may not be the correct antibiotic (but was a culture done, perhaps to check for sensitivity to certain antibiotics? or was he just diagnosed via microscopic examination of the urine at the vet?) Convenia is a cephalosporin and is approved for skin infections in cats, but is used off-label for other things. Other problems with Convenia are that, if the cat has a reaction to it, you can't undo it. The Convenia stays in their system for weeks (not just two weeks as my friend's vet told her recently) and if the cat has a negative reaction to it, you can't get it out of them. Finally, there is a risk of hemolytic anemia, which is a life threatening condition. Having said all that, I have occasionally used them in feral cats that cannot be pilled. I have also known a few people on this Board who have had Convenia injections for their cats where it has successfully treated a UTI. I would prefer that an actual urine culture be done to make sure you know which bacteria is causing the problem and which antibiotics it is sensitive to. But I'm sure Mijo will weather it all fine. I hope perhaps he's already getting relief from his discomfort. I don't want to alarm you because I know that a lot of cats do get these and are okay. I just mention this for future consideration. You can decide whether or not you want to go with a Convenia in the future. In my friend's case, it was one of these vets who takes your cat to the back and does whatever they want without consulting you and then brings the cat back and tells you what they've done. This would not work for me!
 
Hi Suzanne thank you for the response. I updated his chart as my mom was administering through the holiday weekend. He started out good. But now he doesn't seem to be moving off his high... Last night i gave him his shot at PMPS and he started to move down from the 560 but then shot back up at 2am. It's almost like his body is fighting the insulin now the last few days.

So far it doesn't seem to be any side effects to the Convenia injection for this UTI..fingers crossed. Thanks for the advice I will definitely not use it in the future. He did have bloodwork and urine done again at the time of giving him the injection and the doctor recommended using the Convenia. He kidney values where actually getting better and he is closer to stage 1 CKD now which is good. Just wish I could get his diabetes more controlled now.

Can a UTI make him insulin resistant for awhile? How long does this usually last?
Should i just keep administering his same does until this start to clear?

I have been thinking of switching to Lantus to hopefully slow his curve down and be more regulated.
 
DaveL said:
Can a UTI make him insulin resistant for awhile?
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Yes. A UTI definitely can (so can any infection or inflammation) make him insulin resistant. Let me take a look at the SS. Are you sure your mom didn't have any fur shots or anything this weekend?
 
I don't believe so, but it is definitely possible she did. We have switched to using the roll method to see the needle going in which seems to have helped. The injection sites have been around his shoulder blades a bit lower on his back which I think is still suitable.
 
Was he getting the snacks at +2 and +3 over the weekend? Look at the really steep drops early in the cycle over a couple of the weekend days. His bounces are massive.
 
T
DaveL said:
I don't believe so, but it is definitely possible she did. We have switched to using the roll method to see the needle going in which seems to have helped. The injection sites have been around his shoulder blades a bit lower on his back which I think is still suitable.
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That should be fine. Some people shoot in the flank. I never did. It seemed to hurt less in the scruff. As I said, some people will shave a little spot where they want to inject if they have a very furry cat.
 
And the night of 5/27, I am wondering how low he may have dropped after that 126. I would have given a snack when I got that number. Since it was likely late at night, I may have given a medium carb (something around 15%) at that point (I'm assuming your mom went to sleep after that.)

It sure was nice of her to help you out with Mijo over the weekend -- and she got an awful lot of test in, too!
 
Can you hold this dose for two more days? Please give snacks early in the cycle (maybe you are already -- and we talked about trying to bump up the carbs in those snacks if you saw it was necessary.)

Lantus is a good insulin and can give smooth cycles, but some cats are just divers and I have worked with a lot of people who have cats like that whose cats are diving kitties -- and they still have to give the snacks (some of them with a little more carbs, too - every cat is different) in the early part of the cycle to help prevent bouncing and dropping too low.) So some cats on Lantus are also very bouncy. I'm not discouraging you or encouraging you -- I just want you to be aware.
 
Yes she was feeding treats on those days. I updated his chart. She may have given a bit too much of treats to slow the curve as it seemed he bounced high. Mijo is so darn touchy and the UTI is definitely not helping right now.

Roll method I read on here is where you grab the fur and then roll your hand so you can see the skin. It's an alternative method then building the tent that people have used.

He is down to 430 just now. So lets see if he keeps dropping. On previous days he would bounce back to 560 with this UTI which I cannot figure out....

Yes I will definitely hold this dose for 2-3 more days with snacks early in the cycle. I asked vet for the generic lantus prescription, but I will wait until next week to start.
 
DaveL said:
Yes she was feeding treats on those days. I updated his chart. She may have given a bit too much of treats to slow the curve as it seemed he bounced high. Mijo is so darn touchy and the UTI is definitely not helping right now.

Roll method I read on here is where you grab the fur and then roll your hand so you can see the skin. It's an alternative method then building the tent that people have used.

He is down to 430 just now. So lets see if he keeps dropping. On previous days he would bounce back to 560 with this UTI which I cannot figure out....

Yes I will definitely hold this dose for 2-3 more days with snacks early in the cycle. I asked vet for the generic lantus prescription, but I will wait until next week to start.
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I would definitely give the antibiotic more time to make a difference before adding in another change (the new insulin.) Glad you will hold. I am not convinced, studying his sheet, that it's safe to increase yet. For safety, we hold doses with blue nadirs a little longer anyway. And another variable is the antibiotic that will hopefully start to clear the UTI (if it is going to.) Does he have symptoms of a UTI (frequent trips to the litter box with very tiny amounts of urine being passed, or crying in the litter box?)
 
Well he falling again lolol. This cat I just can't figure out and I gave treats at +3 and now a bit more at +5 (86) today. I am guessing his Antibotic for the UTI may be starting to wear off??
And he was so weird last night. I am 100% I'm sure I was in last night and no fur shot, but he was high at PMPS and then still at +5. But for some reason he came out of it himself and was 558 in the morning? No idea how he would go lower than HI especially with the insulin wearing off this morning. But that has happened several times where he would be HI mid night but lower in the morning. Only thing i can think of is the antibiotic.

Just a mess this poor cat.
 
Actually, it's good to see him in yellow and then green today. Good numbers and a nice safe green. I do expect a bounce later on today though. Mijo does things his own way, that's for sure. The Convenia should not be worn off because those injections stay in a cat for a long time (up to two months). So hopefully he's still feeling well in the litter box.

I think the treat slowed him down a little (we don't want to stop progress, but slow things down. But I would give a small amount of food a little earlier -- starting at +2 (so a little earlier than you did today.) By the time he hit +3 he already had dropped several hundred points. Still not a bad cycle so far -- bounce comes later :-(
 
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