5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all :-(

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Susie and Elian

Susie and Elian

Member Since 2013
Haven't posted for a few days. ELIAN was very high - I'm guessing the bounce after his drop. And I was told that I misunderstood the difference between shaving a 1.75 dose and a F1.5. It is so touchy dosing in between markings - at least for me. Even with calipers. It seems like very little difference or pretty much the same.... to my eyes. So I took him back up to what I will call a S1.75 (just shy of 1.75) last night. And on cycle #2 he is back in the green. I will be keeping an eye on him.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - amps 445; 126 +5.5; 73 +8

Elian, I think you forgot to keep diving in the blue lagoon and went straight to playing in the tall green grass. Are you going to bounce again tomorrow because you went swimming today?
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - amps 445; 126 +5.5; 73 +8

Too funny! We need a "like" button ala Facebook. But this has been pretty much the norm for Elian - he's like his mom - all or nothing!
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - amps 445; 65 +9; pmps 107 Argh! Shoot or st

Here we go again..... trying to decide if I shoot or stall. I think I'm gonna stall one hour and then shoot.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - amps 445; 65 +9; pmps 107 Argh! Shoot or st

Dd you feed? I don't know if I would wait an hour, maybe 30mins to see which way he is going... If u didnt feed.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - amps 445; 65 +9; pmps 107 Argh! Shoot or st

I didn't feed and waited one hour (got distracted). He's at 159 so I shot. Now he and his brothers get dinner!
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

I hope that the day will come when I truly understand all of this. I shouldn't have stalled - now he's way up again. But he's so unpredictable ( at least to me) I just never know. :-(
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

As long as he is above 50 and you have supplies and can test, you should be shooting every number above 50 without stalling. You have the data, you've worked low numbers...you can do it! :-D
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Seriously? Shoot anything above 50? Too scary for me! Especially since he doesn't get his shot until 9:30 pm so I get up in the middle of the night when necessary. I'd be afraid to ever sleep if I shot that low. But maybe with time.

He just curled up next to me - time to catch a few zzzzzz's. thanks for the input- I really appreciate it.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Seriously! We do it all the time. However you now know that you didn't need to stall on 107. so next time you see a low, but over 75 say, I would shoot and see what happens.. Just be ready with extra strips, high carb gravy food, syrup and coffee for yourself if its nighttime.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

I'm going to stick my big fat nose in here and say I'm a little uncomfortable seeing such absolute advice about stalling and shooting. I'll also preface this with the fact that I have only looked at Elian's SS and have not read this condo every day, so I don't know what other advice has been given.

In a particular situation it's fine to say shoot a 107 or to shoot above a 50 if you have supplies. But it all depends on the previous values. I'd never shoot a 55 without previous values, and many times I've stalled in the 80-90 range based on his previous cycle trends.

Yes, looking at Elian's values the last cycle, Susie didn't need to stall but no one told her WHY she didn't need to ... because he was rolling mid-upper greens after a red AMPS, and then had a 107 PMPS. That's a decent predictor for an upcoming bounce. She had somewhat similar situations on 5/9 and 5/14 that she could have drawn from ... one time she stalled, the other time she didn't. Elian went to the moon one time, and stayed in blues the other. (And one had nothing to do with the other.)

I hope that the day will come when I truly understand all of this. I shouldn't have stalled - now he's way up again. But he's so unpredictable ( at least to me) I just never know. :-(
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Susie, none of us truly understand what a cat will do, so don't beat yourself up. We start to see trends with our kitties, but even then they throw us some spectacular surprises. You had concerns and you decided to keep Elian safe, and stalling an hour is no big deal. You just got some more good data on what Elian was going to do this time around. If Elian is going to bounce, he's going to bounce, stall or not.

Anyway, I don't mean to create an issue here - I was just concerned to read absolute advice that a newer member may read without understanding the context.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

If I can interpret Marje's comment (aka put words in her mouth), I believe her point is that Susie is data ready. I don't think anyone would suggest that a new member with scant data shoot low. However, past the point when you have sufficient data and have been shooting progressively lower numbers, there's a point when you need to shine up the BOS and shoot above 50. It's the only way to get comfortable with shooting low numbers.

Your point is well taken -- there's a context for everything. I also think you need to consider that while it would be lovely to think that each cycle is contingent on the last, our kitties refuse to read the rule book (such that it is). It can be difficult to predict how a cycle will go at shot time. We are better able to explain what happens after the fact.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Lisa & Leo said:
Yes, looking at Elian's values the last cycle, Susie didn't need to stall but no one told her WHY she didn't need to ... because he was rolling mid-upper greens after a red AMPS, and then had a 107 PMPS. That's a decent predictor for an upcoming bounce. She had somewhat similar situations on 5/9 and 5/14 that she could have drawn from ... one time she stalled, the other time she didn't. Elian went to the moon one time, and stayed in blues the other. (And one had nothing to do with the other.)
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Thank you, Lisa.

One thing I look at when deciding whether to suggest that someone stall (or not) is what the previous cycle looked like. Did he already have a nadir in this cycle? If so, then the low number is probably shootable, especially if the caregiver is available to monitor and already knows how to manage low numbers. Yesterday, Elian started high, then dipped nicely into the 60s and had already started to rise by PMPS. Shootable.

On 5/9, he started high and dropped alllllllll day long, and was still dropping at PMPS. It looks like this was a bounce clearing because he didn't have a nadir and head back up, he just kept going down. Eventually you can learn whether it is ok to shoot this kind of cycle in your cat (usually it is), but this is the kind of cycle that I would at least pause and think about how much downward momentum there is, whether the cat usually gets food spikes, whether I think the meal will put on the brakes, whether the caregiver is comfortable steering numbers, etc.

It's impossible to predict what a cat will do, but there are clues that can give you a pretty good idea. Your data is your friend.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Sienne and Gabby said:
If I can interpret Marje's comment (aka put words in her mouth), I believe her point is that Susie is data ready. I don't think anyone would suggest that a new member with scant data shoot low
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I realize the way I wrote my final sentence, that it seemed to imply that I was considering Susie as a new member. That wasn't my thought - I meant those members lurking (like many many people do, including me) when it's an interesting decision time and walking away with incomplete and possibly dangerous information. I did a ton of lurking when I was first learning.

Your data is your friend.
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You're talking to an engineer. I think Leo's ss illustrates that! :lol: Thanks!
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Lisa & Leo said:
I realize the way I wrote my final sentence, that it seemed to imply that I was considering Susie as a new member. That wasn't my thought - I meant those members lurking (like many many people do, including me) when it's an interesting decision time and walking away with incomplete and possibly dangerous information. I did a ton of lurking when I was first learning.
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It's ALWAYS important to remember that there are people lurking and learning. You made a very good point.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Thank you, Sienne. You are correct.

A few points I'd like to make. First, my advice was directed towards Susie and Susie alone. I completely understand there are lurkers but I did not say everyone should shoot a number above 50. I said "she" is data ready. I also did not say she should not look at previous cycles. I would sincerely hope that by the time someone has been here the length of time that Susie has, that we would have taught them they need to look at previous cycles and see where the BGs were. That is why we stress the value of mid cycle and +10/+11 tests.

I was taught, in this group by one of the most experienced members, that once you have the data (and Susie does), and if it is safe (have supplies, are rested and able to test) that it's generally best for the cat to shoot numbers above 50 without stalling. There are, of course, exceptions and that is why that person taught me and I repeat "generally". Once you know your cat, shooting dropping numbers when it's safe as defined above, can allow you to take great advantage of overlap and carryover. If the CG is tired or ill or if the cat's depot has gotten ahead of them, it's safest to take another option....stall, shoot a BCS, or even skip (especially in the case of the depot getting ahead of them).

When I've been working with a member who has been here a while, is data ready, and has gradually shot lower numbers stalls on a safe number to shoot, I've observed a couple things typically happen depending on the scenario:

1. the number they are stalling on is a second dip, they don't catch the rise quickly enough, and the BG goes up fast OR

2. the number they are stalling on is a dropping number (but a safe one) and because they stall without feeding, the number continues to drop and drop and then becomes an unsafe number to shoot and the shot has to be skipped.

I do take exception to any implication that I am giving absolute and potentially dangerous advice. I've worked with Susie before and am familiar with Elian's SS. If I didn't believe it was safe for her to start shooting lower, I wouldn't have made the post.
 
Re: 5/21 ELIAN - pmbg 107 Shouldn't have stalled after all

Thanks for all of the input everybody - I didn't even realize all of this was going on today!!!! I'm still so unsure of myself and just so nervous and worried when I see low numbers since he's good at high numbers! Our vet also made me a bit nervous when she looked at her copy of my SS and wasn't comfortable with all of the greens at that time. She wanted me to lower his dose at the time from 2u to 1.75 and said she would prefer and be happy with blues over 'dangerous' greens. So I'm constantly questioning. :-(

I am just so grateful that you're all here and care enough to help us out!
 
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