5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, + 1 56, +2.5 143

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Re: 5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329

Zack sure seems to get a pretty decent food spike..or it's possible he's starting a bounce, but it's too soon to tell. He's gotten big food spikes before though

Very nice cycles yesterday, but dropping that 90 points from +1.5 to +2.5 last night could have set off Mr. Liver

Hey Zack! How about smoothing out a little?? No need for these dramatic ups and downs!

Last thing we need around here is another roller coaster kitty....LOL

Hope you're having a good Monday, Holly!
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,++11.5 PMPS 103-

????Not sure about shooting low numbers????
Do I lower the dose?
His PMPS is 103.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,++11.5 PMPS 103-

Can you stall for a half hour, without feeding, and test again? It would be good to see if hr is still dropping, surfing, or rising.

Do you have plenty of strips, high carb food and are you able to monitor tonight? We don't lower the dose unless they go under 50. Typically cycles are flatter if they start lower.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

Wendy,

We waited 30 min and tested again. he is now at 92.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

How far can you afford to be off schedule? Just wondering if another 20 minute wait would help.

A delay acts a bit like a dose decrease and if we wait too long his sugars may go lower due to not eating. Waiting is a balancing act.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

We can wait until 7 if we have to, but I hate to shoot at 7 a.m. and leave for work immediately afterward.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

Wendy messaged me - i'll stay with you for a while. It looks like Zack is clearing a bounce today - it would be good to have the drop flatten out before you shoot.

i'm looking at his ss and will be right back.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

Are you about an hour late right now, holly?

So the 103 was at 11.5 and the 92 is at +12, do i have that right?
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

Yes, the 92 is at +12.
We usually shoot at 6:15-6:30.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

This is the 3rd day at 1.50.... just curious, can she reduce the amount a bit? I'm not expert though...
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

i'm west coast - i'm guessing you mean 30-45 minutes ago? Can you catch one more test?

It'd be great if you can shoot as soon as he begins to rise. Really 103-92 is fairly flat. I wouldn't quite consider that a dropping number. it's a little bit, but not significantly so. If you're up for dealing with low numbers tonight if they happen, you could shoot anytime. Often when people keep stalling the numbers keep dropping until it seems unshootable.

It's up to you - you can also give a token dose (say 1/2 regular dose) or skip the shot. I'd lean towards shooting the full dose if you're going to be home and can monitor. Often shooting lower will flatten out the cycle and lower the whole range into better numbers. I would worry about tomorrow later after we see what he does tonight.

What would you like to do?

Here's the guidelines on shooting low numbers:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack AMPS 226,+1 329,+6 193,+11.5 103,PMPS 92

Hi Mary Alice,

There's nothing here that says that Zack is getting too much insulin or needs a reduction. In general, unless there are circumstances (like no one can monitor) we'd stick with the same dose until you caught a number less than 50. Reducing the dose in advance doesn't usually get you anywhere. The numbers just go up if there isn't enough insulin.

On the other hand, there is always the option of reducing the dose one time because of circumstances - which can even be "this makes me super nervous and i'm not ready to shoot the full dose into a preshot of 100." that's a valid reason to reduce one time. Just know that it's for the person's benefit rather than the cat's. Typically shooting lower numbers helps the cat because the numbers flatten out. Cats usually feel better when their blood sugar isn't zooming around high to low.

So . . . I'll watch for another test, Holly, and you can think what you'd like to do. I'll stay with you for another hour and am running out for dinner but will be back. Wendy says she'll be home by the time I leave. So we've got you covered and will help you.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

wanna feed him, husband wants to feed high carb
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

i was afraid that would happen. you don't need high carb, but if you want to feed him some low carb you can.

do you want to skip his shot? you can get back on track in the morning and shoot early tomorrow if you want.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

i should add - if you want to skip the shot, go ahead and feed him his regular lc dinner. that'll pull him up.

then if you want to shoot in a couple of hours from now, you can. once you're off schedule it's kinda annoying and inconvenient though.

you can also shoot 6 hours from now, making this cycle 18 hrs long, and then shoot 18 hrs after that, which would be tomorrow evening and get you back on schedule.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

we are going to feed. then go with a lower dose or skip.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

Just so I'm clear, have you shot? (If not, the 92 is your PMBG not a PMPS.)

How much time are you past your usual shot time? It's helpful if you can put this in +hours time vs. the time on the clock. I think we're all in different time zones so I'm pretty confused!
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMPS 92, stall 1 hour 56

i think that's fine - you can feed him and wait til he rises from the food - i'd probably give it an hour. whatever number you get then will be food influenced, but if you give a partial dose + having delayed, he isn't too likely to go low. no way to know for certain.

if you want to sleep all night, you might just skip and shoot tomorrow, either early or on time.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

I hate to lose what we have gained so far.
but this is really dicey.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

would you let us know what you decide to do? if you shoot, we'll still keep eyes on you and Zack.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

cats are eating now.
going to feed horses.
we usually feed and shoot around 6 ish.
Feeding horses takes about an hour.
We will test then and decide.
If I shoot half dose, do we wait 12 hours for the next dose?
This answer will effect the decision on which way to go.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

She's really conflicted. She just fed him and is waiting an hour to test again. She's had 3 very late nights in the past week. All are exhausted. :( At the very least, it will be intersting to see what just the food does, right?
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

Julie, I will post what we decide to do.
I REALLY appreciate all the eyes and advise.
This is hard. With you guys, I do not feel so alone.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

i think having a diabetic cat - for me, especially punkin with the acromegaly - was harder than having small children. at least with little kids you can get a sitter. our cats are so intensive, especially at the beginning.

Other people did this for me - and that's why i'm just paying it on. The others who stick around and help are doing the same thing. We know how much there is to learn and how important it is for someone to help you out.

Looking at what happened with Zack tonight - how he dropped with stalling to an unshootable number, I'd encourage you next time to just shoot on time. Always provided you are able to monitor afterwards.

i think if you're exhausted holly, skip tonight. he'll get back on track and you'll feel better for a full night's sleep.
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, stall 1 hour 56

Paul left to get cat food for Midge who is apparently finiky with canned food. We ran out of the flavors she likes.

I am thinking he left so I could decide what to do.
He has helped with IVs for horse who foundered twice, cat with renal failure, iv's and shots with (his) goats, and his response when the vet said Zack has diabetes? We owe it to him to get him through this.

Work is not as patient, and I need work to buy the test strips and insulin....

I texted Paul to make sure. but I think we are going to skip tonight. No way we can shoot at 8:45 a.m.

SOOOO. Last question for tonight is, presented with the next time, shoot full dose at usual time if he is at 103?

After dinner 1 hour he is 143
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, 1 hr 56,

Holly - I think that given the opportunity again and you are available to monitor, I'd give the full dose, provided he didn't visit the basement (below 50) in the cycle before hand. Now that you've got through this once, you've gathered some data on what such a cycle might look like. And you've seen how food can bring him up before the insulin would onset.

We like to shoot low to stay low here, provided you have the data. Davidson is an example of a cat that recently went OTJ. He started going green, Shawna shot him low and he kept nice low flat cycles all the way to remission.

BTW: Paul definitely sounds like a keeper. :-D
 
Re: ??-5/19/14-Zack ,AMPS + 11 103, PMBG 92, 1 hr 56,

Wow - Davidson's spreadsheet is amazing! See, Holly... it can be done!
 
enjoy that unbroken night's sleep tonight! and don't freak if he's high in the morning . . . he'll recover!

oh yeah, and you've got a winner of a husband! what a great attitude!
 
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