5/17 Vet put Jane on glipizide -

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Kris & Jane (GA)

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i am SO confused - posted this to health board:
We saw the vet today, and originally, she wanted us to increase to .5BID and shoot in the belly.

She called a few hours later and said she had just done some research and figured out why Jane's not reacting well to the Lantus, which is what she was on five years ago.

Lantus works with a human body's pH, which is ideally 7.4. There's no way to determine Jane's pH, but vet said that because she has CRF, her pH will be way off with an acid buildup, called metabolic acidosis. That will cause the Lantus to be completely ineffectual -- and throw her into the 500s, as we have seen.

Because Jane eats low carb all the time, we're going to try glipizide and watch the numbers.

but now am told my people i trust here that the pH stuff is crap and that the glip will NOT work. i'm so --- so---- i don't even know what.

thoughts?
 
I don't know anything about glipizide except that I've read here that it can cause the remaining function beta cells to stop functioning. That would mean that if Jane does have a sputtering pancreas, that it might make the pancreas stop working at all instead of working sometimes. That is my extremely layperson interpretation so take that for what it is.

I actually think Jane is responding VERY well to Lantus. She's getting big drops to good numbers on a tiny dose and she has only been on it for less than two weeks. If pH is a concern, maybe Levemir would be something to try, but really I would just give the Lantus more time rather than spending money on different insulin already.

Check out this cat's spreadsheet: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... MQ0E&hl=en (top of the spreadsheet was on ProZinc, started Lantus in March). He was stuck and bouncy for a long time, but when he made up his mind to level out, boy did he ever turn that spreadsheet into a nice color.
 
Hi Kris. I would not give Janie Lantus since she already received some Glipizide today. The glip works to increase the secretion of insulin in the pancreas and adding more insulin would not be the right thing to do. Usually the recommendation of vets who presribe glipizide is to watch the numbers for hypoglycemic response.... right there that tells you not to add exogenous insulin.

Also I hope Janie had some food with the tablet. Sometimes the side effects are nausea and appetite loss, but given with food helps mitigate this side effect.

Another thing to think about is this information I found about Glipizide:
"One of the most important cautions with the use of this medication is that by increasing the release of insulin, glipizide also increases the secretion of other proteins in the pancreas. It is generally abnormal protein deposition in the pancreas that caused the diabetes mellitus in the first place, thus the use glipizide may lead to progression of pancreatic destruction. For this reason, we recommend glipizide as a last resort when insulin administration cannot be given or for a select few cats who are sensitive to insulin secretion."


Source: http://www.marvistavet.com//html/body_glipizide.html

So, maybe you might think about this dose of glip being the last one and going back to Lantus?
 
first and last. absolutely.
 

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Jane, that is very interesting!
My Latte has Metabolic Acidosis (confirmed through blood gas). pH is low. Tried treating it, but the potassium citrate was so miserable to give ...almost making her vomit, that we wieghed the quality vs quantity of life issue and stopped giving it.

I would be curious to see if her pH is off any more since she has shown some crazy high numbers lately.

hmmmm!

I questioned low magnesium as an issue, as it can cause insulin to be a hit or miss in HUMANS. Jess/Earl was not sure it applied to cats as well.
 
btw, I would also agree with Libby that you ARE seeing action with Lantus. It IS working...maybe just a little too well???? I will try to post on your other thread? condo? (sorry, getting confused with all the various one's going on)...the one with the most replies today...thats were the majority of info seems to be sitting right now. ;)
 
Kris & Jane said:
There's no way to determine Jane's pH, but vet said that because she has CRF, her pH will be way off with an acid buildup, called metabolic acidosis.

I was just rereading this and yes there is a way to test Jane's pH. There are specialized tests to determine this. Latte has had her pH measured many times. You can get an "idea" (though maybe not accurate) by running the kidney panel and seeing what the bicarb/anion gap are. But to truley determine the low pH and MA you need to do the blood gas, coupled by a few other things. Usually specialty hospitals do this.

So the more I think about it, the more I wonder if there was some jumping the gun by the vet? I would probably want to be SURE that is an issue before stopping lantus.
 
Lantus works with a human body's pH, which is ideally 7.4. There's no way to determine Jane's pH, but vet said that because she has CRF, her pH will be way off with an acid buildup, called metabolic acidosis. That will cause the Lantus to be completely ineffectual -- and throw her into the 500s, as we have seen.

I have never heard that this could be a problem (I know Lantus does work with pH, but that it could be ineffective due to metabolic acidosis, it's new to me). Anyhow if that's a possibility I would suggest trying Levemir, it has the same effect as Lantus in terms of glycemic control but it is not pH dependant. IMO it would a better alternative to Glipizide.
 
I was given glipizide for Suzie initially. She was on it for about 5 days, and since she had been undiagnosed previously, stopped eating, losing weight, etc.... I did not have time to wait for it to kick in.

I read up furiously on it, it works by stimulating the pancreas to secrete insuline. It works in 35-50% of cats. However, if the pancreas is no longer functioning as it should, then there is nothing for it to stimulate, if you see what I mean. I will look for links to share on it later, but I remember reading that it tends to work well for cats with lower numbers (200-300), and it takes 4-6 weeks to kick in.

Suzie did not have 4-6 weeks left for it to kick in. I begged the vet for insuline, Suzie was starving to death, I was force-feeding. We got Lantus. 4 days later Suzie started eating enough by herself that I could stop force-feeding.

So my experience with Glipizide is not much, but am just sharing what I found out about it.

Also, Suzie is CRF, and the Lantus is working so well on her that right now she is in the 40's and I'm on a hypo-watch.

I'd say if there was some way of knowing if Jane's pancreas is still functioning enough to be stimulated to create insuline. I've also seen something about glipizide and insuline being given together. But I won't speculate, I'll look for links to share. I just remember reading all this stuff, and that Suzie did not have 4-6 weeks to allow the Glipizide to MAYBE kick in. I was giving her 1x 5mg Glipizide tablet a day, and read that the dose could be double that (given 2x day) but it would take weeks to kick in.

Now time for me to test Suzie, fingers crossed her number has gone up
 
I am curious about the difference between Lev and Lantus now, regarding pH. Since Latte has confirmed MA and a low pH, I do wonder how much difference a switch would make. I tried a google search with little luck (it was quick tho). Does anyone have further info or references to this issue to read up?

Thanks!
 
Here is the best simplified explaination I can find, without having to "translate" the technical mumbo jumbo and retype it all myself. This is the basic difference between the two.

Lantus and Levemir have a lot in common. Both are basal insulin formulas, which means that they last for a long time in the body and act as background insulin, with a slow feed that mimics the constant low output of insulin produced by a healthy pancreas.

Both are insulin analogues, which means that their insulin molecules are analogous to human insulin, but engineered, or recombined, with slight differences that slow their absorption.

Lantus is a clear formula made with glargine, a genetically modified form of human insulin, dissolved in a special solution. Levemir is also a clear formula, but it contains dissolved detemir, a different form of genetically modified insulin.

Human insulin is made of two amino acid chains, called A and B, that have two zinc crosslinks between them. In glargine, one amino acid has been switched out, and two extra amino acids have been added to one end of the B chain. The modifications make glargine soluble at an acidic pH, but much less soluble at the neutral pH that's found in the body.

To make Lantus, first the glargine is produced by a vat of E. coli bacteria. Then it's purified and added to a watery solution containing a little zinc and some glycerol; a dash of hydrochloric acid is also added to make it acidic, bringing its pH down to about 4. At that degree of acidity, glargine completely dissolves into the watery solution, which is why the vial is clear.

After you inject it into your subcutaneous tissue, the acidic solution is neutralized by your body to a neutral pH. Because glargine is not soluble at a neutral pH, it precipitates out into a form that's not soluble in subcutaneous fat, and there forms a relatively insoluble depot. From that pool, or depot, of precipitated glargine in the tissues, small amounts slowly move back into solution over time and then to the bloodstream.

Levemir is made with insulin detemir. Insulin determir is created by recombinant DNA technology just like glargine, but is produced by baker's yeast instead of E.coli. It's a clear solution that contains, in addition to the insulin detemir, some zinc, mannitol, other chemicals, and a bit of hydrochloric acid or sodium hydroxide to adjust its pH to neutral. Insulin detemir differs from human insulin in that one amino acid has been omitted from the end of the B chain, and a fatty acid has been attached to the spot instead.

Unlike glargine, detemir does not form a precipitate upon injection. Instead, detemir's action is extended because its altered form makes it stick to itself in the subcutaneous depot (the injection site), so it's slowly absorbed. Once the detemir molecules dissociate from each other, they readily enter the blood circulation, but there the added fatty acid binds to albumin.

More than 98 percent of detemir in the bloodstream is bound to albumin. With the albumin stuck to it, the insulin cannot function. Because it slowly dissociates from the albumin, it is available to the body over an extended period.

Whether Lantus is better than Levemir, or vice versa, is debatable. Levemir is supposed to be injected twice daily and Lantus once. According to Dr. Richard Bernstein, however, Lantus also usually works better if injected twice a day. The acidic nature of Lantus can sometimes cause stinging at the injection site, and both formulas cause allergic reactions in rare cases.

Most trials of the effectiveness of Lantus and Levemir have compared the two insulins to NPH insulin. NPH is a suspension of crystals in a solution, so it needs to be thoroughly shaken before use to distribute the crystals evenly. Some studies have failed to demonstrate any difference between in Lantus and NPH with regard to evenness of absorption.

Other studies have shown that compared to Lantus and Levemir, NPH has a variable absorption rate and a more pronounced peak. At night especially, hypoglycemia can occur if low glucose from exercise or alcohol consumption coincides with the NPH peak.

In some studies, Levemir has demonstrated less variable, steadier blood glucose-lowering effects compared to both NPH insulin and Lantus. Comparing Levemir with Lantus when used with a fast-acting insulin in patients with type 1 diabetes, Levemir had a lower risk of major hypoglycemia and nocturnal hypoglycemia, but the risk of hypoglycemia overall was comparable. The blood sugar control provided by the two insulins was similar as well. Both Lantus and Levemir are excellent basal (long acting) insulins, there is very little to choose between them though occasionally one is preferred over the other for special reasons, otherwise they are essentially interchangeable and both provide steady basal insulin release over the period of a day.
 
lantus vs lev pH

carolyn, if you look at the product notes for lantus and levemir, you'll see that lev's pH is 7.4 whereas lantus's pH is 4.
7.4 evidently is closer to a cat or human's pH, so it may make a difference for some. there are pros and cons to any insulin, tho. i've heard more about pH in terms of insulin's solubility and sometimes to explain why lantus can sting for some (every 1 point drop in pH is 10 times more acidic). can't cite the source off the top of my head, but i've read that about 6% of people feel that sting (pretty sure sanofi had it in their notes on lantus), so it's not a huge percentage but of course any number cited by the mfr should be taken with a grain of salt.

[jill cited this the other day with regard to lantus vs lev: http://www.diabetesclinic.ca/en/diab/2t ... evemir.htm. it talks a little about the acidity issue]
 
Re: lantus vs lev pH

chriscleo said:
carolyn, if you look at the product notes for lantus and levemir, you'll see that lev's pH is 7.4 whereas lantus's pH is 4.
7.4 evidently is closer to a cat or human's pH, so it may make a difference for some.
but something most seem to forget (regarding lantus)...
"After you inject it into your subcutaneous tissue, the acidic solution is neutralized by your body to a neutral pH."
http://www.diabetesclinic.ca/en/diab/2treat/lantus_vs_levemir.htm
 
carolynandlatte said:
I am curious about the difference between Lev and Lantus now, regarding pH. Since Latte has confirmed MA and a low pH, I do wonder how much difference a switch would make. I tried a google search with little luck (it was quick tho). Does anyone have further info or references to this issue to read up?

Thanks!

Hi Carolyn

I think the easiest answer is that regardless, even acidoditc cats have a pH that is lower than normal by around 0.1, so we aren't talking major differences here.

BTW I did poke around last night to see if anyone in the vet community was worried about this, and no one was, probably for the reason above.
 
Jess, you're so good. You all are. Thank you so much.

The plan: 0.25 with a drop squeezed out, scruff shoot for slower onset. Will stay with it for a week.
 
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