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pamela and tigger
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Oh Beth, that sounds just awful for you and your husband. I hope the ab's start working and you feel better soon.
You can get the Flortiflora here but they are available a lot of places if you want to Google it:
http://www.entirelypets.com/fortiflora30.html
Have you tried just sprinkling the Parmesan cheese over her food (the kind in the green shaker can)? That might help too.
I am sorry you have to worry so much about Bud when you don't feel well yourself.
Oh Beth, that sounds just awful for you and your husband. I hope the ab's start working and you feel better soon.
You can get the Flortiflora here but they are available a lot of places if you want to Google it:
http://www.entirelypets.com/fortiflora30.html
Have you tried just sprinkling the Parmesan cheese over her food (the kind in the green shaker can)? That might help too.
I am sorry you have to worry so much about Bud when you don't feel well yourself.
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Well, I am not sure what all the fuss is about. Her BGs look pretty darn normal to me! I suppose you were probably concerned about the speed of the drop. It was fast, but not unusual, especially if her pancreas is waking up. Where would it have gone if you did not feed the high carb? Well, with a working pancreas, probably not much further down. I think you're almost there, as far as her not needing insulin.
Being sick yourselves is a bugger as well and makes judgement thinking difficult. I have had sinus/ear infections and I know they can do a number on you, even though it doesn't sound serious like other diseases/infections, it can make you feel horrible and there's not even a fever! I let mine go too long last winter and I finally had to feel like crap before I went to the doctor.
Did you shoot .05 this morning? SS says .5, I know that's not right! Don't beat yourselves up over the .15U last night. She may not want any food today because of all the fuss and feeding last night.
As I said in the other thread - if you're worried, its better to take her in and have them run a urinalysis and bloodwork, palpate belly, etc, to make sure she doesn't have an infection or something like pancreatitis brewing. I highly doubt it, but momma knows best!
It's probably time to do away with the 12/12 shot schedule too. The best thing to do at this point is decide what a definite shootable number is, maybe 150 and only .05 at that BG level to help her pancreas out. Otherwise, try feeding her only low carb when she goes lower than you're comfortable with. Feeding her too much high carb could be counter-productive.
Well, I am not sure what all the fuss is about. Her BGs look pretty darn normal to me! I suppose you were probably concerned about the speed of the drop. It was fast, but not unusual, especially if her pancreas is waking up. Where would it have gone if you did not feed the high carb? Well, with a working pancreas, probably not much further down. I think you're almost there, as far as her not needing insulin.
Being sick yourselves is a bugger as well and makes judgement thinking difficult. I have had sinus/ear infections and I know they can do a number on you, even though it doesn't sound serious like other diseases/infections, it can make you feel horrible and there's not even a fever! I let mine go too long last winter and I finally had to feel like crap before I went to the doctor.
Did you shoot .05 this morning? SS says .5, I know that's not right! Don't beat yourselves up over the .15U last night. She may not want any food today because of all the fuss and feeding last night.
As I said in the other thread - if you're worried, its better to take her in and have them run a urinalysis and bloodwork, palpate belly, etc, to make sure she doesn't have an infection or something like pancreatitis brewing. I highly doubt it, but momma knows best!
It's probably time to do away with the 12/12 shot schedule too. The best thing to do at this point is decide what a definite shootable number is, maybe 150 and only .05 at that BG level to help her pancreas out. Otherwise, try feeding her only low carb when she goes lower than you're comfortable with. Feeding her too much high carb could be counter-productive.
eeraby
Member Since 2010
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
I just don't know what to do.
Her BG is good, right?
My vet's closed. Emergency vet's a lot of $$$$ (as I am sure ya'll know)
she's not dehydrated. She could be really angry about last night. Does worry me she staggered. She's never done that before.
Would an 18 hour wait to see how she is in the morning be possible? We have a sunday reg vet.
So I can just shoot 0.05 anytime other than the 12/12? 150 - 180 sounds reasonable.
I just don't know what to do.
Her BG is good, right?
My vet's closed. Emergency vet's a lot of $$$$ (as I am sure ya'll know)
she's not dehydrated. She could be really angry about last night. Does worry me she staggered. She's never done that before.
Would an 18 hour wait to see how she is in the morning be possible? We have a sunday reg vet.
So I can just shoot 0.05 anytime other than the 12/12? 150 - 180 sounds reasonable.
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Yeah, you don't have to stick to a 12/12 schedule now. The general idea is helping the pancreas out, because it is going to act when there's food, but if it can't maintain the BGs, then it needs help. So that time may not be every 12 hours, it can't read a clock, neither can Bud as far as that goes. ;-) I think it's appropriate to check them about 2 hours after they eat and if they're over that threshold of 150 to 180, then give a token dose of insulin.
I don't know why she would have staggered either. Her BG is excellent. What is it this afternoon, around 70? That is perfectly normal. Normal cats even have BGs in the 50s and 40s that members have tested. If she is below 120 or so tonight, maybe withhold insulin and see how she does.
If there aren't any signs of illness like puking or inappropriate peeing/pooping, she's probably OK till tomorrow. Does she like any people food - like cooked chicken or tuna? Parmesan cheese is another trick some people use to entice cats to eat, like Pamela said. On such a small dose of insulin it is unlikely she would have a symptomatic hypo with Levemir. She could also be out of sorts from all the attention last night. Cats are funny creatures sometimes when their schedule is messed up. Maybe she staggered 'cause she was trying to escape attention and couldn't move fast enough :lol:
Yeah, you don't have to stick to a 12/12 schedule now. The general idea is helping the pancreas out, because it is going to act when there's food, but if it can't maintain the BGs, then it needs help. So that time may not be every 12 hours, it can't read a clock, neither can Bud as far as that goes. ;-) I think it's appropriate to check them about 2 hours after they eat and if they're over that threshold of 150 to 180, then give a token dose of insulin.
I don't know why she would have staggered either. Her BG is excellent. What is it this afternoon, around 70? That is perfectly normal. Normal cats even have BGs in the 50s and 40s that members have tested. If she is below 120 or so tonight, maybe withhold insulin and see how she does.
If there aren't any signs of illness like puking or inappropriate peeing/pooping, she's probably OK till tomorrow. Does she like any people food - like cooked chicken or tuna? Parmesan cheese is another trick some people use to entice cats to eat, like Pamela said. On such a small dose of insulin it is unlikely she would have a symptomatic hypo with Levemir. She could also be out of sorts from all the attention last night. Cats are funny creatures sometimes when their schedule is messed up. Maybe she staggered 'cause she was trying to escape attention and couldn't move fast enough :lol:
eeraby
Member Since 2010
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
LOL on the escape and couldn't move fast enough.
THANK YOU VICKY! I just now feel not hopeless.
That tiny bit of sardine in her LC made a heck of a difference. I had to fed the princesa in bed, though. She may be a bit dehydrated. So, I added water to the LC/sardine and she lapped it up. Is now at her water bowl, drinking a little, thinking about drinking, drinking, thinking about it... *shrug* I keep following her around - at a respectable distance - and put the LC/sardine/water in front of her when she sits. I get an "OH PLUUUEEZ" look.
OK. I'm not going to shoot anything but .05 and will only shoot it when she's close to 160. Will always get a +3 after I shoot it. That a plan?
If she's not more her self in the morning, I'll take her to the reg vet. That's not her vet anymore. it's the one that diagnosed her and had her on PZI. Gonna be a bit akward.
I'll take her to her reg vet on Monday.
Thanks, hon.
LOL on the escape and couldn't move fast enough.
THANK YOU VICKY! I just now feel not hopeless.
That tiny bit of sardine in her LC made a heck of a difference. I had to fed the princesa in bed, though. She may be a bit dehydrated. So, I added water to the LC/sardine and she lapped it up. Is now at her water bowl, drinking a little, thinking about drinking, drinking, thinking about it... *shrug* I keep following her around - at a respectable distance - and put the LC/sardine/water in front of her when she sits. I get an "OH PLUUUEEZ" look.
OK. I'm not going to shoot anything but .05 and will only shoot it when she's close to 160. Will always get a +3 after I shoot it. That a plan?
If she's not more her self in the morning, I'll take her to the reg vet. That's not her vet anymore. it's the one that diagnosed her and had her on PZI. Gonna be a bit akward.
I'll take her to her reg vet on Monday.
Thanks, hon.
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
You're welcome. It's hard when we can't see what is going on, but if she's at least eating and doesn't have anymore stumbles, it was probably an anomaly and she's fine. Maybe she thinks the 'beans are the ones who are acting funny :lol:
eeraby said:
You're welcome. It's hard when we can't see what is going on, but if she's at least eating and doesn't have anymore stumbles, it was probably an anomaly and she's fine. Maybe she thinks the 'beans are the ones who are acting funny :lol:
Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
First thing is that her BG was never too low last night. Probably reg LC or MC would have been OK. My rule of thumb is feed reg if dropping early or dropping below 60. Feed MC if below 50. Feed HC if below 35.
I have tested both of my cats multiple times in the 30s and there is no ill effects, no noticeable symptoms. Beau got below 30 once and acted a bit out of it.
Do you want to aim for below 40? No. Probably the lowest to aim for is 60-70 depending on your comfort level and how well you know your cat's reactions to doses on those numbers.
I am not sure Bud is ready for as needed dosing. I also am not sure that .05u will work just yet. Shooting .1u last night probably would have been the ticket. But let's see how her PS is tonight after .05 and a very similar PS. It does look like .15u is too much.
One thing about these ultra micro doses is that there really isn't a shed - I don't think. The pancreas is working to a degree (a large degree, but not yet 100%) and you are only offering an assist. I think you can see response to too little insulin pretty quick and adjust and see that work right away if it was the right adjustment, but too much still causes a rebound response that takes several days to wear off. I also wonder if a trial off insulin when a cat is where Bud is would jumpstart the pancreas? When Beau was going OTJ I had to be out of town for 6 days. I would not have wanted to be gone, but it was planned well in advance and I could not change it. So he was without insulin for the whole time because I set a high do not shoot number and my sitter, who was testing, was afraid to give him insulin even above that number.
It's worth studying Beau's SS that week I was gone (1st week of SEP '09)because he went up to 200 but brought himself down all the way from that on his own. Also, look again at a few weeks after that when I was shooting sort of as needed. I skipped the whole cycle (usually) when his BG was too low at PS. It was sort of shoot, shoot, skip, shoot, skip, skip, shoot, skip, shoot, shoot, skip, shoot, skip, skip, skip....
First thing is that her BG was never too low last night. Probably reg LC or MC would have been OK. My rule of thumb is feed reg if dropping early or dropping below 60. Feed MC if below 50. Feed HC if below 35.
I have tested both of my cats multiple times in the 30s and there is no ill effects, no noticeable symptoms. Beau got below 30 once and acted a bit out of it.
Do you want to aim for below 40? No. Probably the lowest to aim for is 60-70 depending on your comfort level and how well you know your cat's reactions to doses on those numbers.
I am not sure Bud is ready for as needed dosing. I also am not sure that .05u will work just yet. Shooting .1u last night probably would have been the ticket. But let's see how her PS is tonight after .05 and a very similar PS. It does look like .15u is too much.
One thing about these ultra micro doses is that there really isn't a shed - I don't think. The pancreas is working to a degree (a large degree, but not yet 100%) and you are only offering an assist. I think you can see response to too little insulin pretty quick and adjust and see that work right away if it was the right adjustment, but too much still causes a rebound response that takes several days to wear off. I also wonder if a trial off insulin when a cat is where Bud is would jumpstart the pancreas? When Beau was going OTJ I had to be out of town for 6 days. I would not have wanted to be gone, but it was planned well in advance and I could not change it. So he was without insulin for the whole time because I set a high do not shoot number and my sitter, who was testing, was afraid to give him insulin even above that number.
It's worth studying Beau's SS that week I was gone (1st week of SEP '09)because he went up to 200 but brought himself down all the way from that on his own. Also, look again at a few weeks after that when I was shooting sort of as needed. I skipped the whole cycle (usually) when his BG was too low at PS. It was sort of shoot, shoot, skip, shoot, skip, skip, shoot, skip, shoot, shoot, skip, shoot, skip, skip, skip....
pamela and tigger
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
I like Vicky's plan on dosing on an as needed basis. I know of a number of people that have done this while going into the off the juice mode. Hopefully, it won't screw up your sleep schedule too much since you still have to get spot checks in after that.
As far as eating.....have you tried baby food to help entice her? I think it is only Beechnut that doesn't have the onions and garlic and is just plain turkey, chicken or beef. Maybe just mix a little in with her canned food to get her to eat it. Plus the other things we mentioned. It is not a good long term thing but at least it is something.
I don't understand why she is feeling this way either. Hopefully though she will be fine and you can give a call to Dr. Stephanie(?) on Monday and see what she says.
Can you check her urine for ketones? May not be a bad idea if you can. How do you know she is not dehydrated? From the skin test?
ETA I see Sheila and I were posting at the same time.... she was just faster.
I like Vicky's plan on dosing on an as needed basis. I know of a number of people that have done this while going into the off the juice mode. Hopefully, it won't screw up your sleep schedule too much since you still have to get spot checks in after that.
As far as eating.....have you tried baby food to help entice her? I think it is only Beechnut that doesn't have the onions and garlic and is just plain turkey, chicken or beef. Maybe just mix a little in with her canned food to get her to eat it. Plus the other things we mentioned. It is not a good long term thing but at least it is something.
I don't understand why she is feeling this way either. Hopefully though she will be fine and you can give a call to Dr. Stephanie(?) on Monday and see what she says.
Can you check her urine for ketones? May not be a bad idea if you can. How do you know she is not dehydrated? From the skin test?
ETA I see Sheila and I were posting at the same time.... she was just faster.
eeraby
Member Since 2010
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Thank you, Shelia and Pam.
Shelia - I've studied Beau's SS earlier today and on several other ocassions. I'm so envious. I'm trying to see how Bud fits in there and I feel that it might probably be worth a 'shot' to see what she'll do w/o a shot.
Pamela - BABY FOOD! duh. no salt either! great idea. Ketones: have never tested for that. Dehydated a bit, I think, from pulling neck skin like I was going to shoot. It goes back but not quite as quickly, perhaps.
After 'talking' with Vicky and thinking 'as needed' would be worth a try, I decided to just leave her alone for a bit. She normally starts a purr going just by speaking her name to her and ALWAYs after 30 seconds of chin scratching and forhead rubbing. She hasn't purred all day, despite my attempts. 3.5 hours of peace did a lot of good for us both. She purrs now and has taken a couple of swipes at her feather on a stick.
Shelia -
RE the HC last night: I regretted shooting 0.15u the second I shot her. Gut instinct was that it was too much. I got really scared when I saw her drop 33% in 30 min (+4.5-5). The HC was only tiny nibbles and mostly just licking a bit of juice. Probably less than 1/2 tsp. I was very careful not to overload her on it, but was so very scared due to that 26 on the 12th. I didn't want to risk causing her pancreas to over react and then having to deal with a rebound. I agree on your BG# criteria for HC, MC, LC, but last night... was just plain scared. It seems, so far, that it worked. Maybe?
I did not test at pmps. It's now 2 hours post, 8:30, and she's at 138
So......... what do ya'll think?
and, again and as always, bless you all for your help.
Thank you, Shelia and Pam.
Shelia - I've studied Beau's SS earlier today and on several other ocassions. I'm so envious. I'm trying to see how Bud fits in there and I feel that it might probably be worth a 'shot' to see what she'll do w/o a shot.
Pamela - BABY FOOD! duh. no salt either! great idea. Ketones: have never tested for that. Dehydated a bit, I think, from pulling neck skin like I was going to shoot. It goes back but not quite as quickly, perhaps.
After 'talking' with Vicky and thinking 'as needed' would be worth a try, I decided to just leave her alone for a bit. She normally starts a purr going just by speaking her name to her and ALWAYs after 30 seconds of chin scratching and forhead rubbing. She hasn't purred all day, despite my attempts. 3.5 hours of peace did a lot of good for us both. She purrs now and has taken a couple of swipes at her feather on a stick.
Shelia -
You mean like shoot 0.05, test, and if it's not working, shoot more?Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Yup... I'm wondering the same thing. At this point, I'm feeling like I'm doing her more harm than good giving her shots.Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
RE the HC last night: I regretted shooting 0.15u the second I shot her. Gut instinct was that it was too much. I got really scared when I saw her drop 33% in 30 min (+4.5-5). The HC was only tiny nibbles and mostly just licking a bit of juice. Probably less than 1/2 tsp. I was very careful not to overload her on it, but was so very scared due to that 26 on the 12th. I didn't want to risk causing her pancreas to over react and then having to deal with a rebound. I agree on your BG# criteria for HC, MC, LC, but last night... was just plain scared. It seems, so far, that it worked. Maybe?
I did not test at pmps. It's now 2 hours post, 8:30, and she's at 138
So......... what do ya'll think?
and, again and as always, bless you all for your help.
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
It's fine to not shoot on a 138. Most likely the problem she may have is that her pancreas still can't bring her back down after food. That's the "test" for pancreatic activity - can they come down from a food "spike" on their own without insulin. Even if it doesn't go up very much though, that's still a great sign.
I mentioned Bud today in a reply to a newbie on Health whose cat has been on PZI, then Lantus and now Levemir all in the past 6 months and probably overdosed on all 3 while on dry food. She is still bouncing but has dropped the dose from 3U to 1U which is a huge improvement. I'm wondering if you would mind reading the thread and, if you feel comfortable, write a bit about your experience - how you think Bud is doing and how hard it is to understand why less insulin is sometimes the right choice. Just kind of to help the person feel better, 'cause she is really confused and rightly so.
Here's the direct link: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45782 I haven't bothered her about coming to the ISG because sometimes it's good for newbies to read those kinds of threads. You never know who is reading.
It's fine to not shoot on a 138. Most likely the problem she may have is that her pancreas still can't bring her back down after food. That's the "test" for pancreatic activity - can they come down from a food "spike" on their own without insulin. Even if it doesn't go up very much though, that's still a great sign.
I mentioned Bud today in a reply to a newbie on Health whose cat has been on PZI, then Lantus and now Levemir all in the past 6 months and probably overdosed on all 3 while on dry food. She is still bouncing but has dropped the dose from 3U to 1U which is a huge improvement. I'm wondering if you would mind reading the thread and, if you feel comfortable, write a bit about your experience - how you think Bud is doing and how hard it is to understand why less insulin is sometimes the right choice. Just kind of to help the person feel better, 'cause she is really confused and rightly so.
Here's the direct link: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45782 I haven't bothered her about coming to the ISG because sometimes it's good for newbies to read those kinds of threads. You never know who is reading.
eeraby
Member Since 2010
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
I don't know what I can add. I've looked at her numbers and am at a loss. First thought was do a small increase. She's gone down from 3u to 1u?
I was posting a reply to her and typing this post to you. After I reread what I'd typed and I looked at Bud's SS realy really closely, I think she should drop it.
Wish she could get the SS working. I do better with colours. ;-)
I don't know what I can add. I've looked at her numbers and am at a loss. First thought was do a small increase. She's gone down from 3u to 1u?
I was posting a reply to her and typing this post to you. After I reread what I'd typed and I looked at Bud's SS realy really closely, I think she should drop it.
Wish she could get the SS working. I do better with colours. ;-)
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
LOL, don't we all?!
But you did absolutely perfectly!! In fact, I'm very proud of you that you explained what you did and what you see happening in Bud's numbers so well! And you just gave someone else dosing advice! Bravo!!
3 Cheers for a job well done! No wonder Bud Bud's doing so well. :thumbup
eeraby said:
LOL, don't we all?!
But you did absolutely perfectly!! In fact, I'm very proud of you that you explained what you did and what you see happening in Bud's numbers so well! And you just gave someone else dosing advice! Bravo!!
3 Cheers for a job well done! No wonder Bud Bud's doing so well. :thumbup
eeraby
Member Since 2010
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
O, God, Vicky. I was so scared to give her (or anyone in that position) advice.
It takes me a long time to word things "well". I've just recently learned (old dogs *can* learn new tricks!) to think carefully before I speak/type. I've been a very blunt person all my life and sometimes things come out differently than I mean.
What time does she do her PSs?
O, God, Vicky. I was so scared to give her (or anyone in that position) advice.
It takes me a long time to word things "well". I've just recently learned (old dogs *can* learn new tricks!) to think carefully before I speak/type. I've been a very blunt person all my life and sometimes things come out differently than I mean.
What time does she do her PSs?
Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Just remember that sharing experiences is helpful. You may be the first person that had a cat that so closely followed Beau's path, but if others read and look at numbers maybe it will cause an "aha" moment for them. Don't think of it as "advice" just explaining what worked for you and your cat.
Just remember that sharing experiences is helpful. You may be the first person that had a cat that so closely followed Beau's path, but if others read and look at numbers maybe it will cause an "aha" moment for them. Don't think of it as "advice" just explaining what worked for you and your cat.
Vicky & Gandalf (GA) & Murrlin
Member Since 2009
Re: BUD 6/18 amps 130 0.05u - BAD night
Oh I don't know exactly. That's one of the hard things, getting info out of newbies. Pamela harps on everyone about doing profiles and she's right!
Nothing wrong with being blunt - and it's not blunt, it's to the point! I am the one who beats around the bush when I write. Get to the point already, I can hear people saying.
And I agree with Sheila, it's sharing experience, not necessarily advice. ;-)
eeraby said:
Oh I don't know exactly. That's one of the hard things, getting info out of newbies. Pamela harps on everyone about doing profiles and she's right!
Nothing wrong with being blunt - and it's not blunt, it's to the point! I am the one who beats around the bush when I write. Get to the point already, I can hear people saying.
And I agree with Sheila, it's sharing experience, not necessarily advice. ;-)
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