4/6 Logan AMPS 367, PMPS 260

[Kelly & Logan]

Last condo (Thurs):
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10787

We're still hanging in there...Logan hasn't been doing well, though. His diarrhea seems to be under control. His last bad run (no pun intended) was on Thursday/Friday. The LB was full of liquipoos Thurs night. As of Friday afternoon, there were 2-3 instances. He had a soft BM on Sat and until yesterday, the rest were formed. There was a small liquipoo/soft BM in the box last night. I didn't have time to clean it this morning so I'm not sure if he had any other issues over night.

So, I think we're making progress with the BMs, but he's still not wanting to eat. I've been boiling chicken and turkey. Sometimes he'll eat that and sometimes he won't. He's also getting some canned tuna. He shows no interest in any cat food. He'll occasionally lick some gravy from a Friskies pouch. This morning, he did eat a little under 1/4 can of ziwipeak lamb. He also had about 1/4 chicken breast and 1/4 turkey breast (which is the equivalent of 1/2 chicken breast) so he had a decent morning. I'm planning on trying some homemade recipes if we can ever get him eating again. The internist said she has several we can try with different protein sources. That way, we can possibly figure out what might be causing the IBD to flare up so much.

I picked up Sub-Q fluids on Friday. We were supposed to give him 150-200 ml EOD, but we only got about 100 ml in him on Sunday. He did not like sitting still and was quite squirmy. He managed to work the needle loose so we just stopped with the 100ml. I checked his scruff last night and he seems to be well hydrated. He drinks a lot of water. I've been giving him his Metronidazole (125 mg bid), Prednisolone (5mg bid), Metoclopromide (bid), Pepcid (5mg once a day) and Anzemet (once a day - injection). I didn't give him the Anzemet last night, though. I don't think he's nauseous. He acts hungry but won't eat. It's like he doesn't trust food anymore. He no longer trusts me, either. I'm the one that does all the bad things to him. :sad: DH2B helps but won't do the pilling or the Anzemet injections or the fluids.

I haven't updated his spreadsheet in a while. I'll try to at least get his numbers in tonight. It's just been a really rough week and a half. I'm extremely depressed and discouraged. I feel so drained and exhausted. Logan wakes me up a couple times each night but rarely eats much. I'm so worried that he's not going to get any better.

 

[paige]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

(((((Kelly))))) I am so glad to hear from you. We were all so worried. I wish I could say something to make you feel better about Logan. Just know that you are doing all you can to help him feel better. I will pray that you can find some certain thing that will get him interested in food. Is it the IBD flare-ups that is what you all are really having to deal with? Is there anything else besides the IBD and FD?

At least you able to keep his BG's from going sky high. ;-)

Hang in there Kelly, I know its hard to see our little loved ones not feel well and not wanting to eat. I can in no way put myself in your shoes but one of my civies had a bad bout of vomiting years ago and stopped trusting food. She would not eat...we had to syringe feed her until she trusted that it would stay down.

You may feel that Logan does not trust you now but he will get over it. We have to do what we have to do. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

You and Logan and DH2B are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[Randi & Max (GA)]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

(((Kelly)))
Of course we were so worried (as usual) when we have not heard from you in a few days.
Pat sent out an SOS in her Saturday Condo.
I can send love and hugs and feel better to you, Logan and DH2B for going through
such a hard time.
I so wish Logan would eat.
And of course he trusts you. You are his Mama and he knows how much you love him
and are doing everything for him.
Try and hug, kiss, snuggle and coo to him even more.
They understand.
:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

 

[carolynandlatte]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Awwww ((((((((((((kelly)))))))))))) You are so very scared and worried. We were all so very scared and worried. Logan is soooooooooooo loved by many! Please make sure to tell him this.

I am glad you are starting subq's. I know you said he drinks enough, but it really is hard for a cat to drink 'enough', especially if they are vomiting or have the runs. The additional fluids could prove to be very helpful. The next time you speak with the vet, you might want to ask if you could do a smaller amount every day. 150 is okay, but kinda a lot. 75-100 every day may make for a little more even hydration.

You did stop the leukeran all together? When was the last dose? I know they told us it should be out of Latte's system in a day or two...but it took MANY more days than that before I saw her feeling better (we had also added pred back in the picture, too).

Is there a way to do all of your meds together? So its done at once? Ive found compiling them into one session and getting it out of the way helps latte relax more during the day and night. You could probably put the anti nausea med into the subq line, to take away one shot. I wonder why they did not go with the ondansetron? Are you still doing cerenia - 3 days on/3 days off? I heard you say you didnt think he was nauseated because he acts like he wants to eat, but doesnt....that is a classic sign of nausea, tho.

Is there any suspected pain? Would a dose or two of bupe help to see if that might be the case?

Just trying to brainstorm with you. I know how tiring this can be. Really I do. You want to stop thinking, but you cant. People keep throwing out ideas and you get pissed because you have already tried them or thought about them a zillion times, or you just dont know what/who to trust. You feel like nothing will work. Everything is overwhelming. All you want to do is cry and hug your baby - but they wont let you. I, however, have high hopes that very soon you will find the right cocktail to help Logan feel better. you love him too much...and he loves you even more.

Please keep checking in. We all care about you two so much. Really we do. (((((((kelly))))))

 

[Michelle and Mannie (GA)]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

I know how tiring this can be. Really I do. You want to stop thinking, but you cant. People keep throwing out ideas and you get pissed because you have already tried them or thought about them a zillion times, or you just dont know what/who to trust. You feel like nothing will work. Everything is overwhelming. All you want to do is cry and hug your baby - but they wont let you. I, however, have high hopes that very soon you will find the right cocktail to help Logan feel better. you love him too much...and he loves you even more.

I could not have said it better. There is a bond between the two of you that just can't be broken. I wish I could help you, but know I can't. I send positive thoughts and hopes instead. Hang in there, it will get better.

 

[Kelly & Logan]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367, +6 316

Awwww ((((((((((((kelly)))))))))))) You are so very scared and worried. We were all so very scared and worried. Logan is soooooooooooo loved by many! Please make sure to tell him this.

I am glad you are starting subq's. I know you said he drinks enough, but it really is hard for a cat to drink 'enough', especially if they are vomiting or have the runs. The additional fluids could prove to be very helpful. The next time you speak with the vet, you might want to ask if you could do a smaller amount every day. 150 is okay, but kinda a lot. 75-100 every day may make for a little more even hydration.

You did stop the leukeran all together? When was the last dose? I know they told us it should be out of Latte's system in a day or two...but it took MANY more days than that before I saw her feeling better (we had also added pred back in the picture, too).

Is there a way to do all of your meds together? So its done at once? Ive found compiling them into one session and getting it out of the way helps latte relax more during the day and night. You could probably put the anti nausea med into the subq line, to take away one shot. I wonder why they did not go with the ondansetron? Are you still doing cerenia - 3 days on/3 days off? I heard you say you didnt think he was nauseated because he acts like he wants to eat, but doesnt....that is a classic sign of nausea, tho.

Is there any suspected pain? Would a dose or two of bupe help to see if that might be the case?

Just trying to brainstorm with you. I know how tiring this can be. Really I do. You want to stop thinking, but you cant. People keep throwing out ideas and you get pissed because you have already tried them or thought about them a zillion times, or you just dont know what/who to trust. You feel like nothing will work. Everything is overwhelming. All you want to do is cry and hug your baby - but they wont let you. I, however, have high hopes that very soon you will find the right cocktail to help Logan feel better. you love him too much...and he loves you even more.

Please keep checking in. We all care about you two so much. Really we do. (((((((kelly))))))

He does seem to be hydrated since the diarrhea has stopped. I'll probably give him fluids tonight, though, to be sure. He has not had any Leukeran since last Monday (3/29). We don't think this was caused by the Leukeran since the symptoms started the night before we started the Leukeran. We do give him all of his meds at once if we can. He gets the Metro/Pred/Meto combo in the morning and Metro/Pred/Meto/Pepcid combo at night, along with the Anzemet shot. He hasn't been vomiting so we haven't given him any Cerenia in a while. I've asked the internist if he might be in pain, but she doesn't think he is - she said he may have some gas/discomfort but not full blown pain.

DH2B went home at lunch and Logan ate virtually nothing. We offer him everything under the sun, including all of his favorites, but nothing works. The IBD seems to be under better control so why won't he eat?! I don't understand why he won't eat if his symptoms are getting better. What else could be going on with him? He just had blood work done and everything was normal.

 

[carolynandlatte]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Oh kelly. I wish I knew.

Would you ever consider syringe feeding little bits. I know its the last thing you want to do. In the past that has sometimes been enough to jump start Latte's appetite. Many Others who have resorted to this have found it true as well. aAs you know the less he eats, the longer it goes, the harder it will be to get him to do so.

yYou are familiar with the yahoo assist feeding group? I would also be happy to share my experience and tips I leaarned after 9 months of syringe feeding Latte. It really is not as bad as one might imagine...either for the bean or cat.

You may also consider switching appetite stimulants. If you were using mirtz everyday (or every 3), then you may find it becoming less effective. I find the same thing with cypro. Switching to cypro may be helpful.

Well the 2yr old here has decided quiet time is over, LOL. I have to run. will check in on you later.

 

[Kelly & Logan]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Oh kelly. I wish I knew.

Would you ever consider syringe feeding little bits. I know its the last thing you want to do. In the past that has sometimes been enough to jump start Latte's appetite. Many Others who have resorted to this have found it true as well. aAs you know the less he eats, the longer it goes, the harder it will be to get him to do so.

yYou are familiar with the yahoo assist feeding group? I would also be happy to share my experience and tips I leaarned after 9 months of syringe feeding Latte. It really is not as bad as one might imagine...either for the bean or cat.

You may also consider switching appetite stimulants. If you were using mirtz everyday (or every 3), then you may find it becoming less effective. I find the same thing with cypro. Switching to cypro may be helpful.

Well the 2yr old here has decided quiet time is over, LOL. I have to run. will check in on you later.

What food do you use for the syringe feeding? How do you syringe feed a cat w/o stressing him/her out? I don't want to syringe feed or have another feeding tube put in...I guess we should maybe try the syringe feeding. We've been giving mirtz every three days - we do not see a big difference after giving it, however. Before, he'd start purring and eating within 30-40 minutes. He would want to eat every few hours the first night.

He has an appointment on Thursday. She said she's beginning to think something else may be going on. She mentioned rechecking his liver values to be sure he didn't have some crazy, unusual reaction to the Leukeran. She also wants to do x-rays to be sure he hasn't ingested something.

 

[Judith and Thomas]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

((((Kelly and Logan)))

I'm so sorry you have had such a rough week with your boy. It's so hard not to worry when they don't want to eat. You are the best Mama bean to him, Kelly. Your love for him alone will reassure him you are doing everything possible for him.

Feel better, Logan! We all love you big guy!

Sending more healing vines and snowflakes...appy vines especially.

 

[Linda and Bear Man]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

(((Kelly))) I am so relieved to see you checking in, but saddend to hear that Logan is not eating and that you are having such a hard time of it. You know that you and Logan are loved by all of us here in LL, and that's because we can feel how much you love and worry about him, and what a good job you are doing of persisting through overwhelmingly difficult circumstances. There are few things as frustrating as trying to get a cat to eat. I really admire people like you, Carolyn, and WCF, who all spend hours every day trying to get the smallest tidbit into your cats. Carolyn has covered most of the bases with her advice. I would take her up on her offer of helping you with more info on assisted feeding. Maybe some finger feeding (putting food on your finger, and wiping it on the roof of his mouth), or other techniques might work. It sounds like you are trying absolutely everything, but, as Carolyn mentioned, a very low dose of Bupe might be something you might consider. I think Jojo may have mentioned (and I am paraphrasing and probably wildly misquoting) that the way to diagnose pain in cats is to treat for it, and see if there is any improvement. I would go ultra ultra ultra low dose, though, because kitties who are in a weakened state to start with will get extremely sedated on it, or have other adverse reactions, and that won't help. Have you tried any dry treats? Maybe a bit of crushed Temptations sprinkled on food? I don't want to bury you with too many more suggestions. I know you have good instincts when it comes to your boy. I just want to let you know I am thinking of you, worry about you, and wish there were something I could do to help. I hope the vet can think of something more that can be done. (((Logan))).

 

[Nina and KB]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Is his food smelly enough to get his attention? Might have the opposite effect, I guess.

I am hoping that with the stool improving, maybe he'll feel better about eating.

 

[Pat+Raja+Shadow (GA)]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

So glad to see you here today Kelly....but I realize it takes important time to post and you have a million things to do each day. We are all thinking of you and Logan and praying for you both. The syringe feeding sounds hopeful and maybe that will kick-start his own appetite.....Carolyn is a sweetie with all her suggestions. You have tried so many things and are trying everything to help him. He knows that....
Sending lots of prayers and hugs to you all.....(((((Kelly ~ Logan ~ DH2B)))))

 

[Laura and Quincy]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

No advice to offer... like the others who already chimed in, I think you're pretty much pulling all the stops already. Just sending healing thoughts and well-wishes your way. Logan AND you need them... I know in many ways this is as hard on you as it is for him.

 

[Amy and Six]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

(((((Kelley, Logan and DH2B)))))

Sending Logan healing vines. We're always here to listen and send hugs.

 

[carolynandlatte]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Hi Kelly,
I understand the hesitancy of syringe feeding. I honestly do. The assist feeding group got me started, just by reading a bunch of the info ithey have available. Then it required a lot of experimenting and many tears. Eventually we found a routine that was acceptable to both of us. Some people find it very easy, and the cats accept it with an amazing amount of gratitude. Some cats will actually open their mouths for you! Other cats will fight tooth and claw. And then there are most, who grow into it as the bean becomes more comfortable. There is no way of knowing how Logan will respond until you give it a try AND not give up too quickly. I also would not just jump into it w/o some information and tips. Mainly because you could become too easily frustrated before having the skills to be successful.

To start, here is the link to the yahoo assist feeding group. Please sign up for it and read through their info, as well as post an introduction.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feli ... id=6606790

Im not sure if these links will work w/o being a member of the group. I will post them just in case:
Dealing with the emotional side of assist feeding
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feli ... id=6606790

Beginning Feeding
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ENm7SxyvjH ... %20Feeding

Oral Syringing Safely and Successfully ( VERY HELPFUL!)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ENm7S6S_nw ... ccessfully

Assist Feeding Member Experiences
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feli ... xperiences)/

I will start another response regarding my experiences and some tips in another post to avoid this one being too long. If I dont finish it tonight, you now have some information to review until I post something.

(((((((((((kelly)))))))))))

 

[Kelly & Logan]

A pretty low PMPS but that's probably b/c he didn't eat much during the day. He did eat really well for dinner, though! He ate 3/4 can of FF with about 1/8 cup of dry core on top. He hasn't touched cat food in days! He also had some boiled turkey (about 1/8 of a breast) and 1/4 chicken breast. He ate a few bites of Ziwipeak Lamb, as well. This was a huge improvement. He had a mostly formed BM but it was a little soft at the end....I know, everyone's dying to hear about his BMs.

For his bedtime snack, he ate about 1/8 can of FF and 1/4 chicken breast. I'm hoping he'll continue to eat.

Thank you, Carolyn, for all of the advice and links on syringe feeding. I'll read through them tomorrow.

And, thanks to everyone for their kind thoughts and prayers.

 

[carolynandlatte]

Re: 4/6 Logan AMPS 367

Ok - here we go - starter tips (or things I wish I had known)

1. If you do not have a baby scale, get one. Nothing more can dictate how much/how little you should be feeding. Maybe start by weighing once/daily, same time (I always did before fluids). Understand there will be a few ounces of fluctuation. What you are looking for is a trend in a week going up, down, or stable. I did not have one in the beginning. My life was much less stressful once I got a scale. Before that I was going off calories "she was suppose to have", which I could never get in. Latte maintained 7.2-7.4lbs the entire time I syringe fed (and documented weight) on 3/4-1 1/2 3 oz cans/day. I would have never thought so little was enough!

2. Food - I always syringe fed food I did not offer her for free feeding so she would not have associations. I fed things she seemed to like. I looked for the highest calories and one's that blended smoothly. I aimed for grain free. It was not necessarily kidney friendly. Our main choices were wellness kitten, chicken, turkey because they were the highest calories. Evo would be a good choice,as it blends pretty well. Strangely, Latte's current diet is mainly wellness chicken and turkey (she eats this on her own!). I ALWAYS offered food first and gave her time to try. I did this before each and every feeding. Syringes were the last resort, though most of the time the sole form of intake.

3. Pureeing - I got a small black and decker food processor. I blended the food and water until there were no chunks. Some foods have bones in them. These will not blend well. Suggestions for this are to use a strainer. That was always too much work for me, so I only chose foods that blended well.

4. Syringes - you can ask your vet for syringes. Myself or others from the assist feeding group could also offer specific suggestions. Some people use HUGE 20ml syringes. For us I fell in love with 3ml's my vet gave with lactulose when I ordered it. If the food is pureed well enough the size of tip opening should not be a problem. If you find it to be, you could cut the tip to make it larger. Some syringes may feel difficult to control the amount you push out. Syringes with rubber stoppers wear out quicker. This is a matter of experimenting and finding what works best for you. Just start somewhere and learn from there is my best advice.

5. Preparation of food - Blend food and pour into something like a babyfood jar, or a similar small container that is deep (easier to syringe food out of). Pull food into syringes and have them ready. Have a few wet paper towels to wipe mouth.

6. Physical Space - Another experiment. I used Latte's throne. I sat her on my lap. In the beginning I had to do a burritto wrap. Eventually she sat on my lap with absoutely no restraint. Some people can just have the cat sit in the middle of the floor and take the feeding. Again, its knowing your cat and experimenting to find the most comfortable position for both of you.

7. Mental Space - Find a way to calm yourself. Almost everytime I rushed or annoyed, stressed/in tears, Latte would vomit or at least struggle. I sang songs...lullabyes to be quite honest. Sometimes I would play a favorite cd (for me). Whatever it takes to help you relax, will help Logan. I cant emphasize this enough. Your energy will directly relate to how well this works for Logan.

8. Amount - Every cat will be different. I gasp when I hear people feeding 20-50ml per feeding. No way could Latte ever handle that. The most I could do without causing her to vomit was 12-15mls! This meant many, many feedings a day. Start small. 1-2 mls. Give Logan lots of love, get him purring, tell him how good he did , etc. Next feeding increase it 1-2mls, and so on...until you both get used to the idea and reach an ideal amount per feeding for him.

9. Time - It took me about 15 min (I had to go veeery slow) to do the 10-15mls with Latte. We did this 6-8x/day. I would incorporate some of her meds into the feedings. It was time consuming, but not much more ,if any,than a tube.

10. Safety - never squirt directly into back of mouth. I opened Lattes mouth and barely put the tip of the syringe in the side of her mouth, squirting approx 1/2ml at a time. Wait for them to swallow, give praise, pets, etc. Never go too fast or give too much in one squirt. You will learn what is best for Logan as time goes on. But start slow.

CAUTIONS:
Always offer food first. There is a risk of developing food aversions, in my opinion. It was really hard for me as I weaned us off the feedings (kind of like with the tube for you). Trusting that she would eat,was she eating enough? Should I be supplementing...would that make it worse? The scale was very helpful with this process. This is also why I never syringe fed foods I would offer her to eat on own.

Im sure I have plenty more odds and ends to add, but this is probably overwhelming enough. I will say, as awful as it sounds. As awful as it seemed at times. It was by far the greatest bonding experience Latte and I have had together. Much more than the anything else we have been through. Did I like it? Nope. Did she like it? No more than me. But did it get us through....heck ya! Our 9months is a little extreme. Had I more money my options might have been different. This was all I could do. You have done almost everything else. This may be what you have to do now until things are figured out. I doubt it would be as long as us.

Please do let me know if you need clarification or have questions. Do use the assist feeding group. And finally Kelly, if you decide this is not something you want to do, everyone will understand. I dont regret doing it one bit. I dont think Latte does either.