4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332, PMPS 395, +3 331

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Kelly & Logan

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Yesterday:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13017

Logan is still eating well. We did not give him the appy stimulant last night. We took him to the vet this morning for blood work - waiting to hear those results. I think we're all hoping things look good and that Logan's good days will continue. It seems like we have a set back every time he seems to be improving.

Dr Lisa was very helpful last night. She said that she doesn't put a lot of stock in the biopsies since it's such a small area of tissue. She said that Logan's symptoms do not match with moderate IBD. She feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle - something I've felt for a while. If he does have only moderate IBD, why doesn't he respond to the treatments? She said Leukeran is a very powerful drug. She said it's also possible that he just has very severe IBD and the tissue samples were simply not from the most affected areas. She recommends that we test him for Acromegaly if his insulin resistance doesn't resolve as we decrease the pred - something we were planning on doing, anyway.

She highly recommends we put him on the raw diet but cook the outside of the chicken thighs to kill the surface bacteria. She said he needs to lose weight (lose the fat) but also build muscle mass along his back area. She said his diet needs to be at least 40% protein. She told us to remove 75% of the skin from the chicken thighs to achieve a lower fat diet for him. She said the extra fat he's carrying (around his upper abdomen and chest areas) can also cause insulin resistance.

She said he's too young to have this many issues and thinks the diet will help immensely. She said that if he does well on the diet, she would start to wean him off of the Leukeran after 30 good days. She agreed that we need to get him off of the pred asap.

So, we're going to get some chicken thighs and make her recipe w/o the eggs and bones and with double the salmon oil (a natural anti-inflammatory) to see if he'll eat it. If he does, we'll get the meat grinder and start using the bones. She also suggested we order the frozen ground rabbit. She said we'd have to cook it (just not well done) for now and then add the supplements. Basically, as long as the supplements are not cooked, we're serving him a complete diet. She does prefer all raw but with his immune system being compromised, we need to be extra careful. So, the chicken can be about 20% cooked since it's not ground, but the rabbit needs to be cooked more since the meat is ground.

She was very surprised that our internist hadn't put more emphasis on the proper diet. I did explain that we have had a lot of trouble getting him to eat anything and that we had tried some better diets but with little success.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Hi, Kelly & Logan too! Sounds like the visit with Dr. Lisa went very well!! I am soooooo hopeful for the two of you (((Kelly)))
You do so wonderful with Logan, he is sure lucky to have such a sweet momma bean!! Good luck with the suggested diet, fingers & paws crossed here that we begin to see a real turnaround in lil man!! Have a terrific Tuesday.. hang in there!! Gooooooo Logan!!
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Hi Kelly-

I'm curious about the chicken thighs - how are you going to give them to him? The whole thigh slightly cooked? If I did that with Boomer I doubt he'd eat it - he wouldn't really know how to rip the food up because he's never hunted. He ate SOME of the Nature's Variety chicken slightly cooked two nights ago, gave it to him last night and he wouldn't touch it. Like her (Dr. Lisa) website says it's harder to switch food when they are sick, it's better to do it when they are well. I'm going a little nuts myself. You're lucky he's eating now, that's a good start. Boomer puked this morning even after having 2 budesonide yesterday. Keep us posted on your progress!!! Good luck!
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Traci and Boomer said:
Hi Kelly-

I'm curious about the chicken thighs - how are you going to give them to him? The whole thigh slightly cooked? If I did that with Boomer I doubt he'd eat it - he wouldn't really know how to rip the food up because he's never hunted. He ate SOME of the Nature's Variety chicken slightly cooked two nights ago, gave it to him last night and he wouldn't touch it. Like her (Dr. Lisa) website says it's harder to switch food when they are sick, it's better to do it when they are well. I'm going a little nuts myself. You're lucky he's eating now, that's a good start. Boomer puked this morning even after having 2 budesonide yesterday. Keep us posted on your progress!!! Good luck!

She said to slightly cook them by dropping them into boiling water for a couple of minutes and then placing them in cold water to stop the cooking process. She said it's ok if they're mostly cooked - we can work our way down to raw. After that, we'll just cut up the thighs (we're going to de-bone them for now) and then put the meat into a food processor with the rest of the ingredients. I think the consistency is supposed to be similar to a pate. I'm not sure Logan will go for it, but I'll give it a try! I do think now is a good time since he's feeling better.

So sorry about Boomer. It's awful when they have these flare ups. You feel so hopeless and helpless. Will he eat some boiled chicken or turkey breast? Logan doesn't like the texture of ground chicken or turkey so I boil the breasts and then cube them. He'll eat some of those if I hand feed them to him when he's not feeling well. It's very bland so it shouldn't put any stress on his system. If I were you, I wouldn't try to introduce him to any new foods while he's having a flare up. Logan won't touch any foods if I've offered them to him while he was sick.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Nicole & Baby said:
Hi, Kelly & Logan too! Sounds like the visit with Dr. Lisa went very well!! I am soooooo hopeful for the two of you (((Kelly)))
You do so wonderful with Logan, he is sure lucky to have such a sweet momma bean!! Good luck with the suggested diet, fingers & paws crossed here that we begin to see a real turnaround in lil man!! Have a terrific Tuesday.. hang in there!! Gooooooo Logan!!

Thanks, Nicole. I feel like I've failed him his entire life by not feeding him the proper diet. I can't do anything about that now, but I can try to make things better for him going forward. I hope the diet change will help. I would love to control his IBD w/o drugs. I HATE giving him Leukeran. I feel like I'm giving him poison. :sad:
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

I forgot to add that Dr Lisa also mentioned that we may need to try him on another insulin - PZI. His regular vet has also suggested this. They said a lot of cats do really well on lantus, but PZI is actually closer to their natural insulin. If things don't turn around soon with his BG numbers, we'll give it a try. She just put it out there that he may one of the cats that doesn't respond well to lantus.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Oooohhhh, okay, I get it. Here's a dumb question...can you buy boneless thighs, flash boil them and then grind them in the food processor with the other ingredients (until you buy the meat grinder). So you're gonna splurge for a meat grinder? How much is something like that? I think I saw one at one point in the supply closet.

Yes! Boomer WILL eat boiled chicken - he loves it. I will try that again. Thanks for the reminder. I ordered a sample of the Instinct powder, maybe I'll try that on the cooked chicken chunks when I get it.

I liked the idea i read in the other thread we've got going about putting the raw chuck in the middle of the canned food all covered up. God, the stuff that we do!!!

Pretty soon you're gonna tell me you're grinding carcasses!!! :lol:
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Traci and Boomer said:
Oooohhhh, okay, I get it. Here's a dumb question...can you buy boneless thighs, flash boil them and then grind them in the food processor with the other ingredients (until you buy the meat grinder). So you're gonna splurge for a meat grinder? How much is something like that? I think I saw one at one point in the supply closet.

Yes! Boomer WILL eat boiled chicken - he loves it. I will try that again. Thanks for the reminder. I ordered a sample of the Instinct powder, maybe I'll try that on the cooked chicken chunks when I get it.

I liked the idea i read in the other thread we've got going about putting the raw chuck in the middle of the canned food all covered up. God, the stuff that we do!!!

Pretty soon you're gonna tell me you're grinding carcasses!!! :lol:

You could probably find boneless thighs - maybe at a butcher's shop. We're not buying a meat grinder until we know if he's going to eat the food. So, we'll take out the bones and put the meat into the food processor with the other ingredients. I think they're around $200. Not ready to buy one just yet!

I was going to try the Instincts powder but it contains milk protein and Logan is extremely allergic to milk. I plan on maybe mixing the food with some canned food to try and transition him. I'll offer it to him first to see if he'll just dig in, though. Dr Lisa said to try a 90/10 (10% raw) mix first and then go to 80/20, 70/30, etc until he's completely on the raw.

I've informed DH2B that he'll be doing the meat grinding! I don't eat a lot of meat (just poultry) so it really grosses me out! :lol: Of course, I'll do anything for Logan. I never thought I'd feed him venison, lamb, duck or rabbit, either!
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Looks like a good path to be on Kelly.
Great info that covered alot of areas.
My DH also wanted ne to try a raw diet but unless he did it,
I don't think I would handle it too well.
Sending Logan some "eat the raw" vines and that he continues
feelig better.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

I mix my raw with some canned. They seem to like it...I believe that it's better if we can make our own food somehow ...at least we will know what's IN it...
So glad you got so much great information from Dr. Lisa, Kelly! Chef of d' Future, eh? The whir or the processor...whipping up some good chow for your boy! Well, I bet it will be so much better for him...
Good luck! It's always a LOT easier to pop open a darn can though. (Once I made my mind up to DO this raw thing, I did it and do feel much better about it. Just another chore to do, but at meal times, I feel happy!)
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Wow, Kelly! What an interesting and informative consultation. I am hopeful that you will achieve good results - and in short order - by focusing more on Logan's diet. I often think about how in a way Quincy's diabetes had a silver lining because it influenced me to look more into feline nutrition. I think the changes I made to Quincy's diet have helped him with more than just his diabetes, and I know my future kitties will start right off the bat on low carb wet food. Interesting that she recommended the fish oil. I give Quincy salmon oil too, initially to help with his coat before his diabetes diagnosis. I didn't even think about its anti-inflammatory properties. Lately I've cut back on it because I was worried that the fish oil could somehow trigger irritation or vomiting, but perhaps that was in error.

A few random things that occurred to me as I reviewed your/Logan's thread today:

- FWIW, I definitely agree that a biopsy is only a little peek into what's going on! In Quincy's case, his organ tissue samples were cancer free, but a lymph node in the area has cancerous cells, and we operated under the assumption that probably wasn't the only place where lymphoma was located. I think it's very plausible Logan could have more severe areas of IBD than what the vet sampled during surgery.
- How long has Logan been on steroids? Is there any chance the steroids could be affecting how his body weight is distributed. I know for humans, abnormal fat distribution can be a side effect of prednisone use.
- Re: leukeran, yes, it's a very powerful drug, but I've been told it's one the cats tolerate reasonably well. When I started Quincy on leukeran, I felt the same way that you do, that I was poisoning him. After all, it is a mustard gas derivative, and my vet won't carry it because of the hazards of exposure. But so far, two years later, I swear that Baytril was much harder on him and so far his system has tolerated the leukeran, which he's gotten 3x/week (1 mg dose) for a while now. I still think about whether we'll be able to cut him back, but if cutting back on the leukeran means adding a steroid of some sort, I'm not sure I want to. Anyway... in Logan's case, it's possible that a short, intense treatment with leukeran might give a good, strong punch to Logan's IBD and maybe even help prevent some of the most inflamed areas from morphing into something worse. But if he can enjoy a good quality of life without it, all the better.
- Reading about all the food advice made me laugh. Does it ever occur to you how much you do to prepare Logan's food (and maybe your others pets') versus what you to feed yourself?! Sometimes I take a step back and look at how much I do to ensure my pets eat properly, including research, supplements, cooking all that chicken, and putting it into ice cube trays, and have to laugh. While I do try to eat right and take vitamins, what I do for Quincy and Katie goes beyond that! But after all, they only can eat what I put in front of them. (Well, in Quincy's case, he can also eat what he steals from the kitchen).

Anyway... hope that your consult gave you some new reasons to be optimistic!
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Hi - it's me again. Please let us know as soon as you try the chicken thigh. Also FWIW, Boomer will eat chicken breast cooked but he isn't too thrilled about the thighs! I thought I'd save money buy getting him thighs instead! Hah! No go. So if your guy doesn't like thighs you could always try breasts. Ya know how it is - guys like breasts! :shock: :lol:

BTW - Logan is very pretty. His coat almost looks blue in his picture. He looks thick and hearty. My pip-squeak is a little thin right now. I've always had cats on the overweight side. This is my first too-thin cat. If I had to choose I'd take the fatter ones. Having a thin cat is more worrysome that a chubby one, let me tell ya!
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Kelly & Logan said:
Yesterday:
She said that she doesn't put a lot of stock in the biopsies since it's such a small area of tissue. She said that Logan's symptoms do not match with moderate IBD. She feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle - something I've felt for a while. If he does have only moderate IBD, why doesn't he respond to the treatments? She said Leukeran is a very powerful drug. She said it's also possible that he just has very severe IBD and the tissue samples were simply not from the most affected areas.

If she doesn't think he has IBD, what does she think he has? Is she saying she thinks it's lymphoma? Or that he has neither IBD nor lymphoma? It sounds like the plan is to get him off steroids and leukeran and to treat (whatever) with diet alone? I know some have had good results with that for IBD. I'm glad that you were happy with her info, and I hope that he does well with the diet. If I could turn the clock back 10 years, knowing what I know now, I might have tried that with Bear.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Laura and Quincy said:
Wow, Kelly! What an interesting and informative consultation. I am hopeful that you will achieve good results - and in short order - by focusing more on Logan's diet. I often think about how in a way Quincy's diabetes had a silver lining because it influenced me to look more into feline nutrition. I think the changes I made to Quincy's diet have helped him with more than just his diabetes, and I know my future kitties will start right off the bat on low carb wet food. Interesting that she recommended the fish oil. I give Quincy salmon oil too, initially to help with his coat before his diabetes diagnosis. I didn't even think about its anti-inflammatory properties. Lately I've cut back on it because I was worried that the fish oil could somehow trigger irritation or vomiting, but perhaps that was in error.

A few random things that occurred to me as I reviewed your/Logan's thread today:

- FWIW, I definitely agree that a biopsy is only a little peek into what's going on! In Quincy's case, his organ tissue samples were cancer free, but a lymph node in the area has cancerous cells, and we operated under the assumption that probably wasn't the only place where lymphoma was located. I think it's very plausible Logan could have more severe areas of IBD than what the vet sampled during surgery.
- How long has Logan been on steroids? Is there any chance the steroids could be affecting how his body weight is distributed. I know for humans, abnormal fat distribution can be a side effect of prednisone use.
- Re: leukeran, yes, it's a very powerful drug, but I've been told it's one the cats tolerate reasonably well. When I started Quincy on leukeran, I felt the same way that you do, that I was poisoning him. After all, it is a mustard gas derivative, and my vet won't carry it because of the hazards of exposure. But so far, two years later, I swear that Baytril was much harder on him and so far his system has tolerated the leukeran, which he's gotten 3x/week (1 mg dose) for a while now. I still think about whether we'll be able to cut him back, but if cutting back on the leukeran means adding a steroid of some sort, I'm not sure I want to. Anyway... in Logan's case, it's possible that a short, intense treatment with leukeran might give a good, strong punch to Logan's IBD and maybe even help prevent some of the most inflamed areas from morphing into something worse. But if he can enjoy a good quality of life without it, all the better.
- Reading about all the food advice made me laugh. Does it ever occur to you how much you do to prepare Logan's food (and maybe your others pets') versus what you to feed yourself?! Sometimes I take a step back and look at how much I do to ensure my pets eat properly, including research, supplements, cooking all that chicken, and putting it into ice cube trays, and have to laugh. While I do try to eat right and take vitamins, what I do for Quincy and Katie goes beyond that! But after all, they only can eat what I put in front of them. (Well, in Quincy's case, he can also eat what he steals from the kitchen).

Anyway... hope that your consult gave you some new reasons to be optimistic!

My future cats will definitely start with the right diet! Dr Lisa said to double the salmon oil and if he eats that well, triple it in the next batch. So, maybe you should try adding it back into Quincy's diet...see if it makes a difference.

Logan has been on steroids since Jan. He used to be a lot heavier and when he went OTJ the first time (Jan 2007) he was 26lbs. He kept gaining weight even though he was on a restricted diet. He's now down to 19 lbs. Our vet made us put him on a diet - Purina O/M - and it made him lose weight, but he lost his muscle mass. So, it's not the pred. I would love for him to be drug-free but I know that's probably not likely. If I can at least get him off of the pred and on a reduced dose of Leukeran, I'll be happy! Actually, I'll just be happy for him to feel good again!

I put tons more effort (and $$!) into his diet than I do my own. I told DH2B that maybe we should go on a special diet so Logan doesn't suffer alone. We could certainly stand to eat better. :lol:
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Traci and Boomer said:
Hi - it's me again. Please let us know as soon as you try the chicken thigh. Also FWIW, Boomer will eat chicken breast cooked but he isn't too thrilled about the thighs! I thought I'd save money buy getting him thighs instead! Hah! No go. So if your guy doesn't like thighs you could always try breasts. Ya know how it is - guys like breasts! :shock: :lol:

BTW - Logan is very pretty. His coat almost looks blue in his picture. He looks thick and hearty. My pip-squeak is a little thin right now. I've always had cats on the overweight side. This is my first too-thin cat. If I had to choose I'd take the fatter ones. Having a thin cat is more worrysome that a chubby one, let me tell ya!

I'll let you know how he likes it. I've tried him with some canned white meat chicken and canned white/dark meat chicken. He didn't like the all white meat so I'm hoping he'll like the thighs. Never know with him! We'll see if he's a breast man or a thigh man. :lol:

Thanks - he's a good looking boy. :mrgreen: He's a Russian Blue mix and has the thickest, softest fur. I hate that he's missing half of it and it doesn't seem to be growing in very well. Hoping that will change once we get him off the pred.
 
Re: 4/27 Logan AMPS 332, +3 332

Linda and Bear Man said:
Kelly & Logan said:
Yesterday:
She said that she doesn't put a lot of stock in the biopsies since it's such a small area of tissue. She said that Logan's symptoms do not match with moderate IBD. She feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle - something I've felt for a while. If he does have only moderate IBD, why doesn't he respond to the treatments? She said Leukeran is a very powerful drug. She said it's also possible that he just has very severe IBD and the tissue samples were simply not from the most affected areas.

If she doesn't think he has IBD, what does she think he has? Is she saying she thinks it's lymphoma? Or that he has neither IBD nor lymphoma? It sounds like the plan is to get him off steroids and leukeran and to treat (whatever) with diet alone? I know some have had good results with that for IBD. I'm glad that you were happy with her info, and I hope that he does well with the diet. If I could turn the clock back 10 years, knowing what I know now, I might have tried that with Bear.

She didn't mention lymphoma. She didn't really throw anything out if it's not IBD. I think she was just pointing out the disconnect and was trying to tell us to not get too wrapped up in the official diagnosis. She's more of the mind set that good health will follow good nutrition. The only thing she mentioned was the Acromegaly.

I think everyone on this board wishes they could turn back time. A lot of health issues could've been prevented if we'd only known how awful pet foods can be. We know now so all we can do is not make the same mistakes again.
 
Logan is still eating well and seems to be feeling fairly well - knock on wood! His blood work looked pretty good overall. His ALT has come down from 175 to 124 so it's going in the right direction. She wants to recheck him in two weeks and keep him on the clindamycin until then. On Saturday, we're going to cut out the 2.5mg of pred at night and only give him 5mg in the mornings.
 
Regarding the IBD diagnosis via biopsy - I thought Boomer had this done, but I was wrong, the procedure that my GA cat Biscuit had was similar, so I mixed them up. Boomer had a special blood test that had to be sent to Texas A& M to be looked at. They discovered from that test that he had a big B-12 deficiency and that his problem was in his small intestine. It may have been the FPLI test? Or is that for pancreatitis? Can't remember and I felt like I couldn't ask too many questions of my vet because she was paging through her files all in hand-writing - not typed. The thought of asking for my records for him is funny because I don't think they type anything up - they just leave it hand written in paper files. Not a modern vet.
 
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