4/23 punkin +18/290 +20/312 pmps 315 +3.5/278

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julie & punkin (ga)

julie & punkin (ga)

Member Since 2011
yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=41748

tested him at +9 = 279 - he seemed fine, behavior-wise. thought i'd try the AB because it's supposed to be on an empty stomach. got .7 of the Baytril down him with him struggling against it as soon as he tasted it. He got down and had drool hanging off him - ran around the dining room making a funny sound and leaving little puddles of drool. i got a can of tuna and gave him a fingerful to try to help the taste go away. then he retched and up in came.

i guess i'll go back to the pepcid again - he didn't like it, but i'll try it in salmon again. the vet's office is open this morning (it's not quite 6:30am for me). i think i'll concentrate on the trying to calm down his stomach and give the baytril with food in is stomach if that's what it takes.

any other things i should be doing?
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

(((Julie & Punkin)))
Is the Baytril in pill form? How are you administering it? I am sorry to hear about the vomit :sad:
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

it's liquid, compounded at a local pharmacy that makes things to order - so supposedly it tastes like chicken. pilling punkin is a special sort of hell, and i thought with a mouth owie it could only be worse than normal. that pharmacy isn't open today, although i probably could get it in pill form from another pharmacy. wonder what the chances are of getting them down him with his mouth sore.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

Wow Julie, and so sorry! I wish I had some suggestions for you. Any chance of grounding up a pill and mixing it with something he likes? I hear pepcid works well.

Good luck!, and I hope Punkin feels better soon.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

Will Punkin eat the allergy formula Pill Pockets? They are FD friendly -- no corn syrup. You could put the Pepsid in one of those.

Baytril comes in tablets and in "taste tabs". Somehow, I suspect this is a better option than the liquid. If the oral version is causing Punkin to drool, it probably doesn't taste very good and may be adding to the vomiting.

If you are going to give both the Pepsid and Baytril, they may need to be separated by time. Certain drugs need the acid environment of the stomach to work best and there can be an interaction between Baytril and certain antacids and stomach protectants. Check with your vet. (If your vet doesn't know, call your local pharmacist and ask -- just don't say it's for a cat.)
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

hahah, really. is 6:30am too early for a margarita? :lol:

got the pepcid down him mixed in a tsp of salmon again. then i gave him another tsp of FF with a TB+ of water to try to get some water into him. i'll wait 30 min. and try some more food, then try the AB again.

hmm, or should i try the AB before more food?

my guess is he was reacting to the taste, not really the AB.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

I am not crazy about liquid form, it always ends up more on my cats mouth than anything ohmygod_smile
However, Baby & Sadi are very easy to pill (we have a method to the madness) neither of my cats will eat Pill Pockets (thankfully we don't need them)
I know the Baytril has already been compounded, a lot of medications can be can be compounded in various forms to make administering the medication both easier for the pet & owner. Does Punkin eat chewy treats? I have a place by me that will compound into a chewy treat the following flavors: tuna, salmon, beef or chicken.
You know Punkin best & what is easiest, what works for one cat doesn't necessarily work for another one :YMSIGH:
Hang in there..
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

how do the pill pockets work? i've never used them. do they chew them up or are you still sticking them down their throats?

i think he was completely reacting to the taste. that compounding pharmacy isn't open over the weekend though, so i don't have an option of something special being compounded to try it. it'll have to be whatever i can get from another pharmacy.

the vet's office doesn't open for another hour or so.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

sienne, what's my priority here? am i trying to get him to eat primarily and stop throwing up or am i trying to get the AB into him? because i suspect if i stop trying to get the AB in him, i can get him to eat and he probably wouldn't vomit. i really think this

ah shoot. he just threw up again.

ETA: there is a 24 hr vet hospital here - i'd be getting a different vet . . .
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

I don't use Pill Pockets because Sadi & Baby refuse to eat them (I have tried all flavors), but they are designed to work by putting the pill in the pocket & the idea is the cat eats the treat not realizing there is a pill inside. They work great for a lot of people, but not for everyone. Worth a try..
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9 tried new AB, more vomit

Hi ((( Julie & Punkin))) Abby (Gus' sister) had a bad oral infection back a few years. Her vet gave her a bolus IM injection of a anaerobic AB.. The type of bug that you're trying to kill can survive in the absence of oxygen (definition of anaerobic). In order to kill it, the AB has to be specifically an anaerobic AB. I'm not familiar with the AB you're using, just trying to pass on some helpful (maybe) info. He then gave me a script for more of the same AB to use at home. The bolus was just to give her a good start. Cephlasporins (think 'Ceftin') are common anaerobics. I just hate to think of you struggling so much. Also, my kitties are easier to pill than to squirt. Go figure. Best of luck. I'm doing more R this AM so I'll be around and watching how it's going with you. Hang in there!
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

Hi,

I have a cat that can't stand to be pilled or given any sort of liquid by mouth. I came up with a solution that works for us. Ask your vet or compound pharmacy if they have Torpac Gelatin Pill Casings. Basically, it's empty pill casings that are dissolvable. Most of the pills I get from my vet are small and chalking and taste awful to the cat (hence the drooling). I usually cut the pills in half and stuff them in a pill casing and then either put it in some tuna or because my cat loves any food, I just bury it in his food bowl. The casing protects the pill from dissolving in the food and making it taste bad. Nine times out of ten my cat just swallows it thinking it's a piece of chicken I stuck in there. These pill casings have made all the difference when giving medication to my cats. Here's the link to the company so you can ask your vet about them (they might use a different brand). But any pharmacy should be able to get you some. I use one of the smallest sizes (Size #5) and sometimes have to cut the pill up in 4ths and stick it in two and shove that in his food. Hope that helps! Good luck. My second thought is why can't the vet just give some sort of antibiotic shot? Don't they have long last AB shots these days?

http://www.torpac.com/
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

thanks linda & bev - good comments that are helpful. i'm thinking the vet's office will start answer the phone in a bit and will call.

linda, the long-lasting AB shot is convenia - i'll ask if he's had it before. i know people recommend against it because if the cat has a reaction to it, like imagine getting a penicillin shot and then being allergic to penicillin, you've got it in your system for 2 weeks.

i am wondering if he's had it before though - because he has had teeth removed before this and i don't think i've given him pills for it.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

One last thing. The pill casing also might give his stomach time to calm down before it dissolves and gets to the pill. Just a thought.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

hmmm, i'm once again feeling like i'm in a crisis and punkin is on the carpet in front of me purring away.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

I have to amend my comment in the previous post. MOST oral infections are anaerobic. Baytril is not an anaerobic AB. Is the infection open and emptying into his tummy? If so, that alone would make him vomit. Is there a visible, actual pocket on infection? If so, that should be drained. I'm sorry, I didn't read how the actual infection presented. If it's wider spread, then it can't be drained and needs AB to make it more focal so that it can be.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

Julie...I use pill pockets daily, if you want to try it, get the allergy formula (duck & pea flavor) so it won't affect his BG. All the other ones have corn syrup (Karo) in them. Use a small piece, just enough to cover the pill....that way, the cat will likely swallow it without trying to chew it. They work great in my experience! You could try the gel cap idea, and wrap it in a bit of pill pocket if he won't eat it in his food...just giving you another idea, can never have too many of them!

I have no experience with Baytril, can't help you there.

RE: Convenia....it's effective for skin infections, I know that Dr. Lisa has posted about it before. It's not a particularly good choice for dental infections. There are better (and safer!) choices out there. I know vets like to use it because it's convenient and easy for clients....but I would not use it, it is not worth the risk IMHO. Please look at this page on Convenia from Dr. Lisa's site. Long acting meds should be used with extreme caution IMHO. I almost lost my civie Pita due to a long acting steroid shot...once it's in, and there is a problem with the med, you can't take it out. It's much safer to use a short acting med.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

hmm, well you can imagine how amenable he is to having me examine it. what i saw at the vet's on Thursday looked like swollen puffy red and inflamed tissue. there was no talk of it being open or not. no culture done, no view of a pocket that i could see.

it's been another half hour - i think i'll try to get him to have some tuna juice and see if that stays down. the vet's office doesn't answer phones til 8:30 (45 more minutes).

i've been reading more online, including Dr. Lisa Pierson's page on convenia, and am thinking i'll ask them to prescribe the baytril in pill form and try those gel caps linda mentioned. if given in the right dose baytril doesn't have any particularly awful side effects.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

You're a devoted bean, Julie. I'll be checking on your progress.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

the tuna juice was a great idea, but he vomited it back up again.

not that i'm complaining, mind you, but this time i didn't get him moved in time and it was on the brand new area rug.

i love my punkin but wish he'd only vomit on the bare floor. thank you very much.

vet hospital i don't know vs vet i've known for 20 years and am now not confident in . . .
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

just saw your post laurie. i haven't tried the pill pockets yet. appreciate any idea that's out there, of course.

i'm thinking my priority is to get him to stop vomiting and the antibiotic is the lesser priority. not sure what will get him to stop vomiting though.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

Geez Julie!!!. What a crappy day, couple of days, you're having. I hope things settle down for you. I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and will check back here throughout the day to see how you're doing.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 still more vomit

With this amount of vomiting, I think you need to get Punkin in to the vet, ER or your regular vet. There are injectible anti-emetics that will, hopefully, break the cycle of vomiting (e.g., Ondansatron). I also wonder if Baytril is the right AB. Do you happen to know if the ER has a veterinary dentist on staff?

And didn't you say that your vet did not do post-dental x-rays? If not, maybe that would be wise in case there are roots that are part of the problem.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 off to the vet

talked to the vet - we're heading in. he's not horribly sick at this point so you don't all need to think he's dying or we're having a terrible emergency. his eyes are still bright and i'm still getting The Look of "Where's the Food MOM?" back later.

and wouldn't you know it, in a special form of kitty torture daryl has bacon grilling. poor baby. punkin wants to know where his is.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 off to the vet

I'm glad you're going to the vet. Any time a cat is vomiting that much he should be checked out. I would have them to an x-ray just in case the cause is not from the infection. At the very least that would rule out constipation or if he ate something he shouldn't have (toy, string, etc.). It's probably from the infection but then you'll know for sure.

I would think an injectible antibiotic would be a good idea if he can't keep food down, because it stands to reason that he won't keep the medicine down either. There are injections of other antibiotics besides Convenia, but I don't know which ones (not long lasting antibiotics, just a starter dose of something else). There are also injectible anti-nausea meds.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 off to the vet

Julie: what a morning you've had so far. I'm glad you are headed to the vet. I think the priority is (1) stop the vomiting (2) food (3) ABs. Sometimes when they compound the AB, they make it in an oil base which is terrible tasting even with the flavoring. I always ask if the med can go in a water base and it has always made a huge difference for my cats. My cats love the pill pockets so the only time I get anything compounded is when the pill, when sliced for the appropriate dose, is so small that it crumbles or the pieces are inconsistent in size (thus giving inconsistent doses). Can you discuss clindamycin with your vet? This is an anaerobic AB. Here's the link:

Clindamycin Info

Sending healing vines!!
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 off to the vet

Julie, good luck with the vet visit. Poor Punkin has had such a tough evening and morning (and you, too). Sorry about the pukus on your new rug. Why do cats always want to throw up on the carpet?

I use the allergy pill pockets for Simon. First, I give break up one of the pill pockets and give him a few pieces to get him excited about the taste. Then, I put the pill in another pill pocket, and break off as much of the pill pocket as I can to make it smaller, but don't expose the pill (keep it completely covered). I always follow up with another few pieces of pill pocket (w/o pill) as a reward for getting the pill down.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

aww, you guys are so sweet - lots of right on target suggestions from you while i was gone!

he's on clindamycin - the vet said it was a preferred antibiotic for the mouth, but he's had a lot of cats vomit on it, and he started punkin on the clavamox first because it was broadspectrum and not as usual to have side effects. he knows how awful punkin is for pills, and he went to the baytril because you can get it oral suspension blah blah blah. anyway, he had tiny tablets (and being now paranoid i went online and checked the dosage - it's ok).

vet said it's very possible there are roots. he said the same thing to me when the infection was first diagnosed, but he went on to explain the rest of it today. during the dental, when he got the tartar off, at least one of the teeth was not attached to its roots. the tartar was holding it in place. he said he worked to get the roots but couldn't find all of them. he starting with getting the inflammation down because sometimes the body will reabsorb the roots. if not, in order to get the dental x-ray they have to anesthetise (sp?) the cat to get the x-ray frame in his mouth. they don't have a dental x-ray machine in this office, just a regular machine. hence the trying antibiotics first.

so we're going to try the clindamycin in a tiny bit of fancy feast first - they are so tiny i think he might eat it. i want to wait another few minutes to make sure the cerenia is working.

oh yeah, and he got an injection of cerenia, an antiemetic that punkin's had before, to quell the nausea.

so plan D - wait 10 more minutes, try the AB in tiny bit of food.
wait an another hour, test BG again, if no pukus give more food and shoot low again - probably half dose again.

the vet actually said go ahead and give lantus but hold off on all food today, but i'm ignoring that part. :-D really, on a personal level i totally love this vet. i just gotta keep tabs on his advice.

ETA: i'll try the pill pockets if it doesn't work in the food. thanks!
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

Hope all the plans go according well to plan :lol: and Punkin gets on the road to recovery and keeps the abs down
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

Thanks for the update, I hope Punkin begins to feel better & that your weekend is relaxing & stress free from this point on!!
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

mwahahahaha :cool:

took the tiny pills, broke them in half, buried each in a tiny ball of fancy feast, added some decoy tiny balls, and he scarfed that whole thing down without even tasting them.

now waiting to see if it stays down.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

Oh Julie, this whole thread has had me holding my breath. I should have read the last entry first, just to be able to breathe.
I can only add, that I am sooooooo relieved that Punkin was able to get the med down.

If you want another endorsement of the Duck and Pea Pill Pockets, Checks loves them. You can break off a tiny piece, like PlayDo, and wrap around the tiny pill.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

20 minutes, no sign of vomit.

do you think it's safe to go ahead and shoot him now? especially since he ought to be able to eat more by the time the lantus' nadir anyway? i'm just concerned about his numbers getting higher and we'd still have a few hours before it took effect.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 ok to shoot now? 1/2 dose?

Are you at +13 or where? When we're stalling we usually don't shoot past +14 and just start over at a time that is good for you. I'm not sure in this instance but don't know why it would be different. If you are past +14, you *might* want to wait until your normal shot time to start over or whatever you might want your normal shot time to be. I'm sorry that I'm not comfortable in suggesting whether you shoot the regular dose or reduced although since you don't know for sure he will keep everything down, reduced dose sounds safe.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 home from vet

wondering how far off you are from your "schedule" now?

ETA yeah, what Marje said :oops:
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 ok to shoot now? 1/2 dose?

4.5 hours later than the "ideal" schedule, but based on last night's partial shot we are 2.25 hrs late.

the tricky thing is we want to leave in 7.5 hrs from now to see our son's performance. we can take punkin with us if we have to, but of course, i'd rather not.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 ok to shoot now? 1/2 dose?

i don't see any dosing advisors online, so i think this is what i'll do. thanks for your ideas.

hold most of his food today - without food he doesn't need insulin, isn't that right? i think i'll give him tiny bits every couple of hours to just keep his tummy from being completely empty. i'll check his BG each time too.

then give him his shot at 7pm tonight, regular shot time, with normal volume of food, and i'm leaving about 15 minutes after that but would be back by +3. So if he throws up again, i'll be back before the nadir to be able to deal with it.

i imagine if i give him a bite every 2 hrs today i'll know if he's likely to hold down the food with the shot at 7pm. (thats 7.5 hrs from now for me.)

thanks for all of your help - if you read this and think i'm making a horrible mistake - feel free to say so. i'm gonna go get lunch and will check back in a while.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 skipped shot

It sounds well thought out. Enjoy the performance, Punkin will be fine.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 skipped shot

I'm no help with Punkin's problems, but just wanted to check in to say that we are thinking good thoughts for him.

Ella & Rusty
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 skipped shot

I think you made a good call. I would have worried that you would have shot and 20 min. later, Punkin would be barfing. Giving the Cerenia time to work and get the kitty's tummy to settle down and be able to give tiny amounts of food sounds good. If all is as it should be by PMPS, you can shoot and even if you're not feeding the usual amount at dinner (and I'd suggest keeping the food at small, frequent snacks), Punkin's #s will be high enough that you can go out and not worry.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 +16/283

BG 283 at +16: he's doing fine - gave him about a nickle-sized amount of food nicely mushed up in water and he ate it like it was the best thing ever.
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 +16/283

Hi Julie-

Just wanted to pop in and say I hope Punkin is feeling better really soon. It's been a rough couple days for you guys!

Trixie has been on clindamycin for her post-dental antibiotic, too. Today was her last dose, but I used the Duck Pill Pockets for her the entire time and even with the 7 extractions she had no problem getting it down (God bless the inventor of Pill Pockets!!). My vet was clear that the clindamycin needed to be take with food, so I had been using it as her post-shot treat.

I've got you and Punkin in my thoughts...feel better, little dude!

Amy
 
Re: 4/23 punkin +9/279 +13/309 +16/283

Hi Julie, Glad you went to the vet's. I hope that's all Punkin needed to help him thru that tough spot. Maybe now, things will be easier. Just that he's asking to be fed is a good sign. When was the dental work done that resulted in this infection? I hope your evening and the performance will be a happier time for you.
 
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