4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60

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Shelly & Jersey (GA)

Shelly & Jersey (GA)

Member Since 2014
Happy Hump Day, LL!

My best-laid plans to get my work done and visit condos last night didn't quite work out the way I had hoped. :YMSIGH: I got my work done and read through condos but wasn't able to respond to any. I don't know how you all manage to work, take care of sugar kitties, kids, the house, etc., and still devote so much time to the board. You all have my utmost respect for managing it all. :YMHUG:

After yesterday's fiasco, we reduced to .75 this morning. I'm really hoping Jersey can hold the reduction.

Yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=116482

Again, thank you to everyone who stopped by yesterday. I always appreciate your advice, support, and encouragement. Julie - I do have a timed feeder. This week, I've been cramming that puppy full and setting it to rotate every hour. (I have a tendency for overkill!)

Yesterday's Recap:
AMPS - 116, 1 unit
+1.75 - 51
+2.25 - 69
+3.5 - 77
+4.5 - 58
+5 - 75
+6 - 59
+6.75 - 64
+7.5 - 71
+10 - 149
PMPS - 325, 1 unit
+4 - 311

Today's Numbers:
AMPS - 184, .75 units
+1.5 - 111
+3.75 - 139
+7.75 - 78

I'm a bit concerned about how low she may have gone while I was at work today. I was actually quite surprised to see the 78 when I got home!

Can someone remind me of how long it takes the depot to drain? I know I've seen that information somewhere (or have been told about it), but I can't remember. :oops: I'm just wondering how long it will be before we start to see the effects of the .75 rather than the 1.0 unit dose.

Thoughts and prayers are going out to all in need!
Shelly
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey AMPS-184, +1.5-111, +3.75-139, +7.75-78

Hi Shelly! I know what you mean about balancing everything. I can usually only visit if work is slow or on days off but I try in evenings or to sneak in a condo here or there;)

WOW on the busy day for you yesterday, Jersey really wanted some attention! On the reduction I think it's a cycle or two it can show but I don't remember either, sorry:( Surprise green numbers are always fun, lol. Sometimes you go woo hoo and others you go oh no, how low were they?!

Good luck with the reducie, and happy hump day!
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey AMPS-184, +1.5-111, +3.75-139, +7.75-78

Lovely cycle again today for Jersey. :-D If you are wondering where she went while you were gone, you can always test an hour after that 78 and it'll tell if she's going down or up. Sometimes the cycle after a bounce might have a later nadir - at least Neko does those slide kind of cycles. Did one last night in fact.

The effects of the larger depot can last 4-6 cycles, it depends on the size of the dose too. I often see a couple of busy cycles for the first two cycles after a reduction. There are lots of variables, but it Jersey goes low again soon, you can always pose the question and get advice from others whether it's the depot or a cat wanting less insulin.
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey AMPS-184, +1.5-111, +3.75-139, +7.75-78

Good luck with the reduction. It has been my experience that it takes about 2 cycles for the depot to start draining. I usually try to hold out for about 6-8 cycles before I increase if it appears the reduction didn't hold. Lookin' good Jersey!
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey AMPS-184, +1.5-111, +3.75-139, +7.75-78

Good luck with the reducie. I always wonder how low Furball went when I come home to greens. Does Jersey eat the food you leave in the autofeeder? If she does, you shouldn't have to worry about her going too low. Furball eats the food I leave out for her. I know it's scary to see those greens when you don't know how low she went, but those greens are good numbers for healing for Jersey.
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey AMPS-184, +1.5-111, +3.75-139, +7.75-78

Hi Shelly,
It is always so hard to leave for work when our kitties are low and/or dropping. Hope you are able to find a dose that is safe for Jersey, but also healing. Don't we all wish that :lol: :lol: I leave out a buffet of fuds on days that DH is working. I am lucky that he works every other weekend, so he has extra weekdays off.
Have a good night!
 
Re: Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84

Okay, you guys. I have no idea what to do here. We just received a PM bg of 84! We've never shot below 100 before, and it seems like we more often than not end up with diving numbers when we shoot low. I will be home tonight to monitor if that makes any difference.

What do we do? If we shoot a reduced dose, how much do we reduce it by? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

We're stalling right now without food.

P.S. Thanks to those who have stopped by today. I'll give you a more proper thank you after we finish stressing out over the PM bg! :lol: :lol:
 
Re: Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84

I wouldn't reduce the dose. If you're home, have strips, and can monitor, personally, I think this is a fine number to shoot. It looks like Jersey has been surfing the latter part of the cycle. Remember, you are going to be feeding which will, most likely, bump numbers up. In addition, it takes roughly 2 hrs for the onset of the current dose -- well, in most cats. Jersey seems to related to Gabby with the early dives.

I would re-test (more for your peace of mind) and unless numbers are dropping significantly, shoot. I'd also suggest getting early tests. You can even get a +0.5 if you're concerned about where numbers are heading.
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84 & 68

Thanks so much, Sienne. I re-tested and her bg was down to 68. That's been 30 minutes from the last bg of 84. Do you still think we should shoot the full dose? Although it's not ideal, I can chase the number tonight if need be and try to catch us back up to our normal 12/12 schedule later.

Again, THANK YOU!!!
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84 & 68

shelly,

edited to correct info. i saw your answer.

so . . . i think it's shootable as long as you're home. i might reduce to 0.5 just for tonight so you don't end up with plummeting numbers, but it's really your call.

you might end up staying up and carbing her for a while. in general the motto "shoot low to stay low" is true.

i'm going to post this because i was editing and will come back with more thoughts.
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84 & 68

i wanted to grab this for you anyway.

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
Click to expand...
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84 & 68

the other factor to consider in your decision is whether or not you can be late tomorrow in your shots. if you can, then you could wait til it starts to rise.

personally, if you can stay up and monitor, i'd shoot. i think of low preshots as a gift - it gives you the opportunity to flatten out and lower the whole range of blood sugar numbers.

have you ever looked at Davidson's spreadsheet? as counter-intuitive as it is, often shooting a low number just makes the cat coast along in the green numbers. it doesn't usually make them dive. and even though 84 to 68 looks like a drop, it's basically flat. if she were mine, i'd shoot.

but you get to chose what works for you. you'll have to monitor tonight. if you shoot, i'd get a +1 and +2, and as sienne said, if you're nervous, get a +0.5.
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84 & 68

i should add that i'm only here for about an hour and a half max, so i can't stay with you. there's usually someone on line, but wednesdays have been a day when some of the usuals aren't around.

i can try to find someone to pick up after i go, though.

what do you want to do?
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73

Hey Julie,

Our +13 was 73. We're going to stall for another 30 minutes while DH picks up some more high-carb food. We'll then retest and plan on shooting at that time. We'll be okay if no one is online. Although we haven't had to do it yet, I'm guessing we can "Karo" with the best of them! :lol:

Thanks for your help. I sincerely appreciate it!
Shelly
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73

so it's now been an hour and she's basically flat. the lantus cycle will begin to peter out soon - and you're shooting a number 2 hrs from now, if that makes sense. Lantus doesn't onset right away, usually about 2 hrs later, and you will have fed her when you shoot her.

we can see she's not going down any appreciable amount. i think you're good to go if you want to.
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73

i think you can karo any day of the week! :lol:

most everyone overcarbs the first time, "hello, i see a 49, let me give you a tablespoon of karo syrup with 3,000 grams of carbs in it!" :lol: :lol: that was me the first time! then, whoops - kitty is now 350! hahahaha not really, but you don't have to do what i did. just a little to get them to come up, plus a little regular low carb food to get them to surf along.

I'm still send out a couple of feelers to make sure someone's online, just in case you can.

but it's very true that you will be able to "steer" her numbers with carbs. it's very cool. you want to give the minimum it takes to keep her over 50. The longer she stays under 120 the more her body will get used to those numbers.
 
Re: Still Stalling! 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73

It makes perfect sense, Julie.

Apparently, Jersey wants to confuse me even more. She just gave me a 48 @ 13.5. An immediate retest gave me a 60. DH doesn't want to shoot at all tonight. I may end up just chasing the number tonight. I should be home when needed for the new shot times, and we can work back to our regular schedule over the next few days/weekend.

I'll keep everyone posted!
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

one thing that oftens happens when people stall is the number continues to drop and become unshootable. basically everything over 50 is ok to shoot once you've gotten a bit of experience. but . . . there's that comfort factor. so whatever you choose is ok. this is giving you an example of what to expect the next time if you stall. cats have patterns and while they can change, generally they repeat blood sugar behaviors.

she's not going to have an enormous set-back if you skip tonight. and you will have another opportunity to shoot low some time in the future.

if you end up skipping, know that you can also shoot early in the morning if you want.
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

have you ever looked at Davidson's spreadsheet? as counter-intuitive as it is, often shooting a low number just makes the cat coast along in the green numbers. it doesn't usually make them dive. and even though 84 to 68 looks like a drop, it's basically flat.
Click to expand...

Shelly, I would totally agree that this happens and I'd trust Julie that you'd be safe. If you look at Boot's SS from 3/1, 3/2 and 3/8, 3/9 I was shooting 1.25 units at 70's and 80's and was getting only low 50's and a couple 40's. It wasn't the big drop to the bottomless pit like you'd expect. He dipped a little and would gradually rise back up. Just an example I wanted to show you.

Good luck to you whatever you decide.
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

Thanks for that info, Julie. I wasn't aware that the numbers sometimes continue to drop like that. There is just so much to learn with FD. I'm amazed at how much I continue to learn each day. (P.S. I just saw some posts from you that I missed during our communications earlier. Sorry about that. Note to self - refresh the page more often and work my way down to make sure I don't miss a post!!!)

Again, thank you all for stopping by today.

Jane - I think they need to come up with an insulin that keeps kitty at 75. Period. I mean....they can put a man on the moon, right? Why can't they find the be-all, end-all for insulin?! :lol:

Carla - I do think Jersey eats out of the timed feeder. With three indoor munchkins, though, all I really know for sure is that at least one of them ate out of it! :-D

Tara & Wendy - Thanks so much for the information about the depot draining. I've made notes of that so I'll know what to watch for over the coming days. The info about the late nadir is also really helpful. That sure might be what happened to Jersey this afternoon.

Rachel - Thanks for stopping by today. I don't buy it that you sneak in a condo or two here or there; you're awesome about posting. I sincerely commend you for it!

Hope you all have a great night. I'm off to poke kitties and chase numbers.....or maybe just skip a shot and hope she surfs anyway...Paws crossed on that one!
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

I wasn't aware that the numbers sometimes continue to drop like that.
Click to expand...
When you are stalling, you aren't feeding. Think of how you feel if you go past your dinner time by a couple of hours, your blood sugar gets lower. Same thing is happening here.

Good luck tonight - whatever you plan to do.
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

That makes perfect sense, Wendy. Duh! :oops: My mind apparently isn't functioning on all cylinders these days. Sheesh.......
 
Re: 4/2 Jersey PMBG - 84, 68, 73, 48/60 Chasing Numbers Toni

WOWZERS, Jersey! You are on a mission tonight. Shelly, I wish you lots of luck tonight. I hope she pulls up a bit and surfs for the evening. Best wishes on a safe :mrgreen: evening.
 
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