4/17 PMPS 356 +2 277 +4 251 +9 121 +11 84 +11.75 75

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Tina & Rocky

Tina & Rocky

Member Since 2013
Good morning,

I am moving Rocky's shot time back to 9am instead of 10am this morning because we had to skip his shot last night when he stayed in the 40s for three hours. We're about 1/2 hour away from shot time right now.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=117335&p=1231548#p1231548

It's very hard for me to believe that Rocky is healing when I see a bounce like this morning-------->all the way into the upper 400s. @-)

Rocky was getting a "skinny" 2.25u when he started to go too low. He had 4 shots of the "skinny" 2.25u, and just before that stretch of 4 skinny shots he had (1) straight 2.25u.

Do you think it would be a good idea to 'shoot through the bounce' with the same (s)2.25u this morning? His BG is SO high this morning. :cry:

Then, should I decrease his insulin dose to a "straight" 2.0u tonight?

Or, if Rocky's BG numbers continue to be in the reds, pinks, or black, throughout the day, and he does not recover from this bounce by his PM shot time, should give him a "FAT" 2.0u? confused_cat

Rocky's yesterday recap:
AMPS 161 +1 192 +3 91 +4 101 +9 55 +10 48 +10.5 54 +11 41 +11.5 44
PMBG 52 + 13 72 + 23 477

Thank you!

**UPDATE**

We shot through this miserable bounce. Gave Rocky the same skinny 2.25u dose. Praying he comes down before his PM shot time when I am suppose to decrease his insulin dose.
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533

I haven't a clue on dosing but I sure understand your thinking. The pancreas healing is hard for me to understand with all the bouncing our cats are doing. I need to ask a human diabetic how they would feel with these highs and lows. Then again cats don't act like people. So frustrating. Hang in there!!
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533

Good idea to shoot through the bounce. Bouncing has nothing to do with how well the pancreas is healing, but everything to do w/ how the Liver reacts to changing BG levels. It's the liver that need time to adapt to more normal numbers, but it isn't really "healing".
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432

I never did buy those vitamins that are suppose to help heal the liver. When Rocky was in the hospital for DKA they did an ultra-sound on him. They maybe have even done an x-ray, I can't remember now.

Anyway, they told me that "his liver looks like a diabetic liver." The vets described Rocky's liver to me as "enlarged and bright pink in color." They also said it was not fatty liver disease.

I have been doing some research trying to find out what problems in the diet would cause liver disease. So far, I can't find anything.

I don't think I am going to see an improvement in Rocky's diabetes until I find a way to heal his liver.
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432

Tina, bouncing isn't caused by liver disease. It is part of the flight or fight response , "My energy levels are low, I need more if I have to flee or fight, time to dump some sugar in the blood!" Some cats just keep bouncing until it just stops.
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432

hi tina. hope you were able to get a little more rest last night.

yes, this morning's amps was high. to be expected when one has an expected bounce plus a skipped shot. the good news is rocky has been clearing his bounces rather quickly. looks like he may be trying to that already today. we'll have to see how the rest of the cycle plays out.

alex has had a bum liver for several years now. she gets a supplement called Denamarin once a day. it's been very helpful for alex. you might want to speak to your vet about it. my vet usually has it in stock, but i buy it on the Internet from TheVetMarket.com for a lot less. Although, the last couple of times ordering from Amazon.com was even better!

refresh my memory as i'm no longer in the LL group on a daily basis. did the vet put rocky on Ursodiol aka Actigal? it's good for some internal conditions, but not others. your vet would have a good idea if it's a drug that might help rocky.
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432

Ann, I am being a mad scientist today.. using "Dr. Google" to do research as to why a liver would be "enlarged and pink." cat(2)_steam

I would like to try to determine if an initial untreated acute pancreatic episode caused the onset of diabetes.

Or, Rocky suffered ringworm. It was HORRIBLE.. covering nearly all of his body. Ringworm is caused by molds.
 
Re: shot thru bounce 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432

not sure if you were perhaps posting at the same time as Jill. You might want to look back to see her comments above.

Ringworm is caused by a fungus, not mold. http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/cat-care/ringworm

I'm not sure what gain there is in trying to figure out what caused his diabetes - there are lots of causes and it could be any/multiple of them. In punkin, it was a benign tumor on his pituitary gland. in some cats, it's steroids beyond what their body can handle. Some become obese and are inactive, some eat too many carbs . . . most people don't know what caused their cat's diabetes, but a few know. i haven't heard that virus/fungus/bacteria can cause it, but i suppose it's possible.

In people there is some talk of long-lasting viruses in the body causing metabolic syndrome, which includes a level of insulin resistance (pre-diabetes). I looked into that a few years ago and found some research that said that the viruses that remain (think hepatitis, herpes/shingles, epstein-barr/mono) are potential agents to look at. thought that was all pretty interesting.
 
Re: 4/17 PMBG +23 477 -->AMPS 533 +2 432 +7 369

Jill, I had to look up those medications. They did not put Rocky on those pills because they were mainly focused on treating his DKA. They had him on several different types of antibiotics for about 4 days, I think, and then finally settled on one type that they liked. I don't remember the name of it. I'd have to call and get his records.

The ultra-sound was done at the very first emergency room that he was at. They were located in a different city and their prices were over the moon so I moved him to an animal hospital very close to me after 24 hours. The second hospital did not concentrate on the liver at all... but it was a lingering thought in the back of my mind.

I DID ask the first hospital to fax/email over all of Rocky's records/treatments to that second hospital. They should have it on file.

I am thinking now to contact his current vets, who saw him at the second hospital, and asking if we can put him on one of those two drugs for that "not right" condition of his liver. I strongly suspect that something is still going wacky with his bile ducts.

The other thing is that you probably didn't know is that Rocky had/has ringworm. He had lost a lot of fur and it continued to fall out while in the hospital. Four vets did not diagnose it, and the test for it came up negative. (However, it was on in-house test they did without looking at microscope. Neither hospital has a Woods Lamp either.) The diagnosis of ringworm came when I came down it after treating him in my house for about 7 days.. :lol: I then called his current vets and told them I was certain that I had contracted it from Rocky, and could we PLEASE put him on a pill to get rid of this icky stuff. He has been on it now for about 4 months. It takes a long time to clear up.

I can't afford another ultra-sound for Rocky right now, but maybe I can call his vet and suggest to her that she take a look at that ultra-sound again, and maybe we can put him on the Ursidol. It probably wouldn't hurt to be treated for that.
 
Re: "FAT" or "straight" shot 2nite? 4/17 AMPS 533 +2 432 +7

The "skinny" 2.25u was too much for Rocky right now. He had a skinny 2.25u for 4 cycles.

We're giving Rocky a reducie tonight because yesterday he spent about 4 hours in the 40s. I'm going to decrease his insulin dose. Should I give him a "FAT" 2.0, or should I try to make it a "straight" 2.0u?

What helps a CG to determine that about micro-dosing, anyway?
 
Re: "FAT" or "straight" shot 2nite? 4/17 AMPS 533 +2 432 +7

the short answer is that you try things out, take note of what the response is, then refer to it the next time you are faced with a similar situation. I think the choice is up to you.

Jill said this to you yesterday:
Jill & Alex said:
it all depends how well he holds reductions.
if he has a hard time holding reductions, i'd probably take him down to a fat 2 units in the morning.
if he holds reductions well you could try a reduction to 2 units.


fwiw, don't put too much stock into what he previously *did* on a dose. that was then and this is now...
Click to expand...
 
4/17 AMPS 533 +2 432 +7 369 +8 375... PMPS 356

Thanks Julie! Rocky looks to be trending upward so I will try to shoot the "FAT" 2.0u tonight. :YMPEACE:

I'm also switching his food up, *if* he will eat it this new stuff.

I'm going to introduce 4% carbs into Rocky's diet along with turkey and chicken which he has not eaten with any consistency since BEFORE his DKA episode.

I'm going to feed him the 95% Evo Chicken & Turkey tonight, an entire can of it broken into the 4 mini-meals, if he will eat it. On a dry matter basis, this Evo flavor is 41% protein and 49% fat. It has 4% carbs. In comparison Rocky's regular food for the past 4 months, Nature's Variety Instinct Canned Venison, has 48% protein and 37% fat, with zero carbs. This Evo has 210 calories while the NVIV has 222.

I'm also going to be adding 1/2 capsule of Milk Thistle divided into his 4 mini-meals tonight. I'll divide another 1/2 capsule into his morning mini-meals. This is for his liver.

I want to see if introducing the 4% carbs and a higher fat diet will change his numbers any, maybe for the better? :roll:

***UPDATE***

Rocky wouldn't eat the Evo Chicken and Turkey, so we are back with the NVIV 0% carbs tonight. I did manage to add a sprinkle of the Milk Thistle to it all right though. ;-)
 
Re: 4/17 PMPS 356

Tina

First, I am so sorry I didn't come back on last night when you needed help. I meant to but work has been very demanding and I had just finished dinner when I first posted and I fell sound asleep. I feel horrible about not being back around to help you and I'm so glad Jill was. I'm also glad all was ok. You did a good job.

What are his AST, ALT, GGT, and bilirubin values on his bloodwork? Gracie had a bile duct infection but and her liver enzymes were elevated but her liver and pancreas presented as totally normal on the u/s. I think most I'd abortive cats do not routinely have liver problems so I don't know what he means by a "diabetic liver". If his liver levels are elevated, I'd give him denamarin and ask about ursodiol as Jill suggested.
 
Re: 4/17 PMPS 356 +2 277

Marje, thank you for wanting to be here for Rocky and me, but please don't worry about it.. You have a life!! LOL!! :lol: I think I have been very demanding of everyone here with Rocky lately, and I am sorry about that. I have been reading through so many other condos on the Lantis Land lately, but I don't say anything most of the time. There are so many other cats and people suffering here, besides Rocky and me. And everyone needs help. There seems to be a lot more people seeking help with their cats here in the past few weeks, but maybe I am wrong about that? :roll: Anyway, I apologize for taking up so much of your precious time. Time is a gift.. so few of us have any luxury with it any longer.

About the liver levels, I don't have any of Rocky's paperwork from his hospital stays. I think I'm going to need to go collect that at some time. I can't remember them saying anything to me about his liver levels, only that his liver was enlarged and bright pink. Then, the vets discussed it and thought maybe Rocky just has a large liver because his kidneys are also quiet large, they said. I think they might have decided that Rocky is a larger cat who has large organs..

I do sort of remember them discussing if he might have -- can't think of what it is called-- Julie's cat had it and Neko had it. I believe the vets started wondering about that disease because of the size of all of his organs. Apparently Rocky has all large internal organs. All of his internal organs are big enough that all of the vets commented on it and noticed it. He is different from other cats in that way. However, I believe they changed their mind about Rocky having that disease, for some reason, even though no test was given to determine it. It might still be lingering in the back of their minds...

I looked at the price of the Denamarin and it's expensive. I thought I might try giving him this Milk Thistle for awhile first. It was only $16.00 for 60 capsules.
 
Re: 4/17 PMPS 356 +2 277

Tina, when Max was having a hard time with the pancreatitis several months ago, my vet suggested I try denamarin. I bought it but saw that it needs to be given on an empty stomach. I called the company and was told it is best that way but I could give him a little baby food to chase it down. The pills are big and it says not to break them up. I asked and they said it was okay if given right away. I was going to put the pieces in a gel cap but it would have taken more than one. I decided not to give them to him. My vet was trying it off label as that isn't the purpose of denamarin. He said he was trying it with a few cats. When I see him I need to find out if it helped.
 
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