4/10 Wrigley 109 AMPS. 319 PMPS +4=64 - Please help

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ewalker405

Member Since 2015
Wrigley was low last night and I stayed up and checked him late. This morning he ate about half his normal food and was at 109. I don't know what I should do. I have 45 min before I leave for work and nobody will be here from 7:30 to 5:30 cst.
Thanks
 
109 isn't super low that good for a beginner I was just going to ask that if he's had his shot he should be ok can you leave his food out if he wants more
 
If you have not given his shot, I would suggest reducing the dose to 1.25 units and leaving extra food out. Hopefully he will eat during the day if he needs to.
 
If you're not sure how to measure 1.25 units, you can be cautious and shoot 1 unit to keep Wrigley safe today. You can always go back up in dose tonight. You did a great job last night.
 
I have not given his shot today. I think 1 or 1.25 units sounds good. I can leave out food but our 2nd cat might eat some before Wrigley will. I can give him a couple treats that he should eat this morning.
 
I don't know how much time you have once you get home from work before shot time, but if you can get an in the door test and post before you shoot, you can ask for advice on tonight's shot. I always try to get an in the door test so I can see if Furball is going up or down at shot time, but I get home in time to do that.
 
Hi. What did you actually shoot? While 109 is not low it is for a newbie without lots of data. I would have shot the 1 unit to be safe as there is a depot built up and you want to drain it a bit. Had you been able to be home you could have shot the 1.25 and monitored closely.
 
Should I keep with 1 unit dosing as his default to see how he does? He is only 9.5 pounds now and 2 units might be too much and drive him low. He is kind of tricky to get to eat so I don't want to always worry about going too low.
 
Now that we're not in a middle of the night crisis, i want to give you some more information about last night.

I would not increase back to 2u, no. Not at this point. We're a data-driven board, so we look at the most current BGs and figure out how to proceed. He demonstrated clearly last night that 2u was too much. Depending on how he is tonight, i probably would stick with the 1.0u for now.

I'm unsure whether or not 1.5u was too much. Lantus forms a precipitate in the body when it's injected - called the depot - and that precipitate slow releases into the body. The size of that depot is in relationship to the size of the dose. What we know is that when the cat's been at a dose (2u) and the dose is reduced (to 1.5u), the depot continues to give at the same rate as it was for 2u for a while. We can see the effect of that previously larger depot in the BGs for as many as 4-6 cycles after the dose reduction.

That means that the 40's you got last night could still have been from the previous shot - that's what Wendy was referring to. Understanding how the depot works is pretty important. It's the cause of Lantus and Lev's ability to provide longer blood sugar control in cats, but it's also a little tricky in that you have to understand that prevous doses can affect your current blood sugar. Yesterday morning's 2u is likely still holding down today's blood sugar. The farther away you get from it the less the effect is.

This is also why I was asking last night how many days he'd been getting the Lantus. If you see a strong effect on the first day of the shot, with essentially no depot built up yet, that means something different than if you see a low number after a week when the depot is full.

Here is a link to more about the insulin depot.

Wrigley's starting dose is a little higher than we would've started him. I was tempted to suggest you drop to 0.5u to begin with, per the Start Low Go Slow method, just because he's alone during the day and for starting out, it's easier (and less nerve-wracking) to start with a smaller dose while you learn a little bit. The weight-based formula that goes with Tight Reg would've had you start at 1.0u, as Chris suggested. I'd encourage you to look at those two dosing guidelines and decide which one you want to follow. That helps us guide you in the way that works for your life. Because you'd mentioned DKA that factored into the suggestion that you just decrease to 1.5u last night instead of decreasing more than that. If you want to follow Tight Reg, here is a post with ideas on how people manage it while working full time jobs. Even if you choose SLGS, I'd employ some of the tricks from that post to help keep Wrigley safe while you're at work. A timed feeder is worth its weight in gold with a diabetic cat.

I did want to offer you a suggestion on how to record what happened last night in his spreadsheet.

In the column where you put his pmps, you can stack up the previous test so it shows that you stalled. You can shrink the font or widen the cell to help it all fit in. It should look like this:

PMPS.........U
12=67
12.75=85
13.25=81

The rest of it is great. I just want it to show that you stalled for an hour or so before you shot, because that is important.

I wanted to add one more thought about the dry food. We don't usually suggest feeding cats dry food here. It's typically too high in carbs and it can be a burden on their kidneys, and diabetic cats already are dehydrated. So typically you'll hear "ditch the dry food" - but in your circumstance last night because we thought there was a background of DKA and because it's essential not to skip shots with a cat that's recently had ketones, one technique we use in that circumstance is to increase the carbs of the food so that the cat can get enough insulin. I expected the dry food to raise him high, honestly. We've seen cats have their blood sugar increase by 100's of points just from 3-5 pieces of kibble and it can last that way for another day. It's powerful stuff in most cats. The fact that Wrigley didn't go high from it was surprising. It suggests he is not very carb sensitive, or the dry food wasn't high carb (was it Young Again kibbles?) or ? But it did surprise me.

Ordinarily you want to give canned food - it has more water in it and is therefore easier on their kidneys, and if you have to give high carb they wear off in a couple of hours. You might want to pick up some high carb gravy cat food for using for low numbers on your way home from work. www.catinfo.org has the list of carbs - I've linked you straight to that list. You want something over 16% - over 20 or 25% is even better. A lot of people like Fancy Feast because the cans are small and otherwise you may be throwing away cat food. Or giving it to your other cat. The Fancy Feast gravy lovers are all 20% or more. There are plenty of other options too - just scan down the carb column and find something that's available to you.

Usually when you see a test less than 50, you pop off the lid, put it back on the food and squeeze to get out about a teaspoon or so of gravy. Feed it to the cat and recheck the blood sugar in about 20 minutes. So having a cat food with enough gravy is helpful.

ok, hopefully I haven't overloaded you - read lots and ask questions on anything you don't understand.

When you get home and test Wrigley, would you please edit the subject line with the current information? You'll notice that people edit the subject line whenever they have new information. That lets people monitor from the main page and people can see if you need help. To edit your subject line, go to the top right of your post and look for "thread tools." I'm out of town tonight but know others will be watching for you.
 
My wife got home and fed Wrigley about 2 oz of FF classics about an hour ago. Just got a test when I got home and he is @ 317. What do people think of for a dose? Should I just stay at the 1 unit? Right now he is about 11.5 hours from his morning shot. I need to shoot him in 30 min.

Thanks
 
I went ahead and gave him 1 unit so the timing wasn't off. When is the best time to test again at night? Is a test at +3 good?
 
Either a +2 or +3 test is helpful. If the test at either of those times is markedly lower than your pre-shot, it tells you that numbers are dropping. Usually those tests are close to your pre-shot value.
 
1 unit was good, I would treat this as his starting dose now and, unless he goes too low, stick with it for 5-7 days to let the depot settle. In case you were thinking of shooting more because of the pink number - that's not how it's done with lantus. Dosing is based on the nadir (low point of the cycle) not on PreShot numbers. Chances are he's bouncing either from yesterday's lows or possibly from where he went today. It will be interesting to see what he does tonight...
 
In case no one has explained what a bounce is, let me tell you. When a cat's BG goes lower than it's body is accustom to or takes a big, fast drop, the liver perceives that the cat is about to die from low BG and sends out hormones and stored sugars to rescue the cat. Unfortunately, livers aren't all that good at figuring out when the danger is real, so they often try to save kitty's life when kitty doesn't need saving. That lands the cat's BG up on the rooftops. That could be why you saw such a high preshot today. My cat is the king of bounce, and it really freaked me out for a long time. Once I finally understood what was going on, I was calmer about the whole thing. Marginally calmer, but calm is not might strong point!
 
Wow, just got a +4 and he is @ 64... 319 to 64 in 4 hours with only 1 unit. This probably a depot still I imagine..? I got him to eat some of his normal food. Anything else I should do?
 
Some cats like to nadir earlier. Wrigley might be one of those cats. You could probably go an hour before the next test. If he's the same or going up, you could call it a night. If you need to go to sleep now, just leave lots of food for him to snack on.
 
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