? 30/03 Hercules PMPS 108. Help me figure out food and BG patterns....

Hercule's mum

Hercule's mum

Member Since 2020
Hello everyone!

It has been a while since I posted on our adventures.... to summarize we reduced the dose very quickly, got stuck in a rut of pink and yellows for a while, and are starting to make progress again. Hercules is a bouncy cat.

However, what I wanted to get people's toughts on is food and its effects.... It does my head in. It probably is due to Hercs being a contrarian and never following the textbook....:banghead:

But am i correctly in understanding that food effects on BG should be most clearly seen 0.5 to 1.5 hours after eating, and that 2 hours later it should not be food induced?

Look at hercules SS today.... He probably did have a bounce breaking cycle last night. I assumed the low AMPS was the low tail of that, so checked the +1 after shot to be sure. It was a bit higher than AMPS, not too much... so I tought, perhaps the dive was finished, or even possible that he was on his way to bounce again. Took a +2, higher yet! So, start thinking, definetely starting a new bounce. Perhaps he went lower last night. Safe to go out to exercise. Check at +4 and a dive!

Anyone can help me figure out what is happening? The +2 not being lower, would ordinarily tell me I was OK to have a day working.... and I would probably come home to a dead cat.... I desperately need to find some signs that allow me to have confidence to leave him and start planning going back to work....
 
So you switched to 6% carb?

I see it as, if the +2 is lower than AMPS Mauer isn't done with the last cycle. Onset on Lev is +3-4 usually +4 with Mauer, unless she was low to begin with at AMPS.

The +2 isn't set in stone. I never had any luck with it on prozinc.
It might not be a food bump, but longer duration, carryover, or early onset?

Maybe you just found the right dose for now?
I read something interesting last night about human diabetics and carbs, it said that the body needs carb to release its own insulin, I think. It was late... ill see if I can dig it up.

Just my thoughts.
@Marina & Chico however is awesome at seeing patterns!!!
 
Thank you @SashaV for your trust in my powers hahaha

Honestly speaking that would surprise me as well, what i would definitely do is make another test in half an hour because of the 5mmold drop in 2 hours
 
So Chico never did this, that's why it would surprise me as well but actually it looks like Hercules does it, for ex. on the 05/03 PM cycle the +4 was lower than the preshot even thought the +2 was indicating a bounce. The difference between then and now is that now it went into greens and with those we are usually much more careful. Hercules did that on the 04/03 PM cycle as well, that's when he went under 50 (2.8).

This seems to be a pattern :( but i need more time to see what precedes it (if there is any)

to be continued :D maybe in between someone with experience will come in and clarify it
 
SashaV said:
So you switched to 6% carb?
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No... just experimenting with it... and it might be what is causing the problem here.... Theorethically 2% and 6% are both "low carb" and shouldn't make that much of a difference, but perhaps Hercs is really carb sensitive?

I gave him the 6% at AMPS, because I tought he might still be going down from bounce breaking last night, and because I wanted to see what it did to him. When i saw not much change to +1, I thought Ok this is good. But then with +2, I got confused.... went back to normal 25 at +2, because he was going up..... decided to give him 6% again at +4 because he was diving....:confused: and now, one hour later his BG went up substantially... so perhaps it is the 6% talking?

So confused!
 
Hercule's mum said:
No... just experimenting with it... and it might be what is causing the problem here.... Theorethically 2% and 6% are both "low carb" and shouldn't make that much of a difference, but perhaps Hercs is really carb sensitive?

I gave him the 6% at AMPS, because I tought he might still be going down from bounce breaking last night, and because I wanted to see what it did to him. When i saw not much change to +1, I thought Ok this is good. But then with +2, I got confused.... went back to normal 25 at +2, because he was going up..... decided to give him 6% again at +4 because he was diving....:confused: and now, one hour later his BG went up substantially... so perhaps it is the 6% talking?

So confused!
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That actually could be smth, do you write all the food you are giving on the SS? it can help you trace back how did he react to different amounts and carb%
 
well, it was always 2% or HC. But it was suggested I tried the 6% to see if it help with the up and down madness that I tend to see with Hercs.... The question is how to test the effect of the 6% if he is always off pattern?? I do always write when I give 6%. The default is his 2%. So, I *think* the 6% does get his BG up quite a lot..... whether that could be a good thing in the long term with the right dose, is a more diffcult issue to test with a single cat (replication and all that...) ;)
 
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/reactive-hypoglycemia.html

Reactive hypoglycaemia, for non diabetics, too much carb makes the body release too much insulin and then crash.

It might be what we call carb sensitivity? But maybe it works the other way around too? This could also be why Mauer doesn't plummet after being switched from HC to LC, because the little production she does have left, don't fight the lower carbs the same?

I'm just throwing it out there, I might be waaaay off. But I think human diabetics is a good source of research, so I've been poking around in human stuff :D:oops:
 
Marina & Chico said:
That actually could be smth, do you write all the food you are giving on the SS? it can help you trace back how did he react to different amounts and carb%
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Smth? :oops:

Marina & Chico said:
Thank you @SashaV for your trust in my powers hahaha

Honestly speaking that would surprise me as well, what i would definitely do is make another test in half an hour because of the 5mmold drop in 2 hours
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You seem to really notice things. And extra eyes never hurt! :D:p:p
 
Hercule's mum said:
well, it was always 2% or HC. But it was suggested I tried the 6% to see if it help with the up and down madness that I tend to see with Hercs.... The question is how to test the effect of the 6% if he is always off pattern?? I do always write when I give 6%. The default is his 2%. So, I *think* the 6% does get his BG up quite a lot..... whether that could be a good thing in the long term with the right dose, is a more diffcult issue to test with a single cat (replication and all that...) ;)
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actually carb sensitiveness is very individual, Chico is very sensitive to carbs, Mauer on the other hand is very little sensitive. In the long term having a carb sensitive cat is much better from the point of view of manipulating their BG level.

Honestly i believe we are very lucky with Chico behaving more "by the book" and he eats every time we put him food on the plate, no questions asked. I do not believe that all cats are as easy but one thing that helps us understand what the BG varies to is by keeping a stable feeding schedule, we feed the same amounts the same time every cycle. We only manipulate a bit with the grams in between hours when we need to keep him surfing and we add honey when he goes too low. We fed him only twice after +6 (once was by mistake :D)

By doing this we know that we compare the more or less same value at +2, +4 etc every AM and every PM cycle - Chico is more reactive at night so it is not fair to compare between the two. This approach introduces less variables to consider when trying to understand patterns.
 
I see this pattern in a lot of days for Hercules:

26/2 PM
27/2 AM
03/03 PM
04/03 PM
05/03 PM

i don't know why this behavior but maybe if you would take +2 and +3 in every cycle you suspect to be bounce would help you catch these drops :-? For example you got +2 on 03/03 PM and it was 234(13) and then at +3 he was already 184(10.2) - this is a 50 points decrease in one hour, i would suppose he will keep on dropping. If he drops with the same speed he would be 130 at +4 and 90 at +5. you caught a 77 at +6 which is a very decent value still, nothing to worry about. This logic of mine doesn't always work on Chico but that is how i argument to my husband why we have to test again :D Sometimes we catch drops, sometimes we don't. Some cycles are just more active than the others... Up until now he never dropped faster than what i predicted, he dropped slower though.

For Hercules on the 04/03 i was trying to apply the same logic but i cannot understand how come the 49@7.5, by my logic he should have been at about 100 lowest at 7.5 ( :D ), did you retest that value? seems weird even for a bounce clearing. Maybe the value is correct but i would retest is just because by my calculations he shouldn't be dropping so quickly.

On the 16/3 PM cycle my logic would have worked perfectly (even though it is not the same as what you were asking here). PS was 302; 173@2 (130mg drop) and at +4 you caught a 45 which is another 130 drop.

Consider this just some of my thoughts, maybe they can help maybe completely useless :D:D Hope they will not confuse you more

And i am not saying my theory is correct, it is just a theory i use to make more sense of the numbers, please take it with a pinch (or more) of salt
 
Thanks for looking through the SS Marina. You are right, that usually by +4 I have a much better idea of what kind of cycle it will be... that means waking up really early... if I wantto go to work... but it is doable!
 
Marina & Chico said:
can the onset vary like the nadir?
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Good question!

tiffmaxee said:
The +2 s usually when cats onset.
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So, am i understanding you correctly that the reason to meassure the +2 is to have an idea of onset? I am suspiciious Hercs onset is bit on the later side too....

I swear I have also heard that after 2 hours BG should not be food influence, isn't that the reason why we pull out food two hours before shooting time?

I guess an alternative explanation for Hercs weird patterns is that he goes up with his BG on +2 more often thannot because of a late onset?
 
The reason for a +2 is because it’s a typical onset. So if lower than the preshot it is likely going to be an active cycle requiring more monitoring. The +1 usually gives you an idea of how much of a food bump your cat got.
It’s not that the onset varies so much but the carry over from the previous shot can be different.
 
tiffmaxee said:
The reason for a +2 is because it’s a typical onset. So if lower than the preshot it is likely going to be an active cycle requiring more monitoring. The +1 usually gives you an idea of how much of a food bump your cat got.
It’s not that the onset varies so much but the carry over from the previous shot can be different.
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And that varies from type to type of the juice?
Mauers onset seems to be +4, unless the carryover is teasing...
 
So, Elise, if I want to 1) check the effect of food, 2) try something that tells me whether I can go out of the house or not, should 1 try meassuring BG at +1, +3 and +7 (he is late nadiring most of the time) for a week?
 
The +1 will give you an idea f the did bump. The +2 will probably let you know if it will be an active cycle. I’d experiment with different carb percents to see what you need to be able to leave her. Do you have an auto feeder? You cited then set it to go off while you are gone and at night.
 
I do have an autofeeder, but I also have a civvie....and I cannot find a way to be sure he is the one that eats the food. I am seriously considering getting a camera to watch... Dear me, what has my life become?!
 
Can you please tell me what did you feed on the 31/3 AM cycle? Hercules seemed to have a huge drop between +2 and +4, then he slowed down until +6 and then he sped up again.

This cycle looks like bounce clearing one, i believe you fed him maybe more or more carb % at +4 so he slowed down and then he sped up again to that <50 at +9. in the PM cycle he bounced again. Hercules really changes nadirs, i don't think i noticed this before in other cats... i understand how difficult it is to keep up... you never know when the low can come...

But it seems to me that 0.5 is a good dose for him, he just still bounces a lot on it, i guess it should get better with time. Last time when he was on 0.5 in February he managed to settle down in blues and greens.

It would be interesting to see more experimenting with the different carb content in food, it seems to me that Hercules might be very carb sensitive, but there is not enough data to make a call. If you do experiment, make notes so that you can relate the numbers to the food given
 
Hi Marina, yes yesterday was a wil one. I had some awareness it was a bounce breaking cycle, and I should keep an eye on him, but I did thought he was slowing down at +6 so relaxed... Was very surprised at +9.

I fed him the usual, except that I had to give him some LC at +9 to prop him up....

Marina & Chico said:
It would be interesting to see more experimenting with the different carb content in food,
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I keep hoping he settles down a bit so I can actually see the effect of different carbs, but at the moment we either have a bouce cycle or a bounce breaking cycle.... so it would be difficult to learn anything from the experiment, I think....
 
Hercule's mum said:
Hi Marina, yes yesterday was a wil one. I had some awareness it was a bounce breaking cycle, and I should keep an eye on him, but I did thought he was slowing down at +6 so relaxed... Was very surprised at +9.

I fed him the usual, except that I had to give him some LC at +9 to prop him up....

I keep hoping he settles down a bit so I can actually see the effect of different carbs, but at the moment we either have a bouce cycle or a bounce breaking cycle.... so it would be difficult to learn anything from the experiment, I think....
Click to expand...

There is no way of knowing if adding the information about food will help you make more sense of his reaction to food or not except by adding it. At some point i was comparing 2 different cycles on Chico and i found it weird that in what seemed to be 2 identical cycles, at the same phase in the cycle he reacted very differently to the same amount of honey: once he kept on decreasing and the second time he jumped up high. That is when i learned about the difference between bounce clearing cycles and normal ones. I am not certain i would have been made aware of this difference otherwise if i didn't have the food there and i wouldn't have asked for this specific question.

The idea is to compare all the time the same type of cycles between themselves and then maybe adding the food in the analysis would make more sense.

Yesterday's AM cycle had the same pattern as on the 21/3 AM. He dropped 80 points between +6 and +9. On the 21/3 he was higher at +6 so the 80 points wasn't so dramatic as on the 31/3. These 2 cycles are not completely identical but it can give you an idea of what you can expect.

I am thinking what if in a bounce clearing cycle you would try higher carb foods at around +6 just to slow him down?

I don't know if it makes any sense what i write or if you find it useful in any way, i am just thinking that if you would learn a few of his patterns it would be easier to know what to expect. I am as well wondering if you managed to stop him from dropping so much between +6 to +9 on the 31/3 AM would he have bounced as much or not o_Oo_O That is what i would try with Chico to help him stabilize his drops more and maybe bounce less aggressively.

Hercules has a lot of patterns compared to Chico :rolleyes: so your job to make sense out of them is way more complicated than ours but i like to think that it is possible since he managed to have nice patterns on 0.75 dose in February. Now it seems that this dose does good to him, he just needs to stop from bouncing :D
 
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