3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277 +5.5/263 pmps 314

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julie & punkin (ga)

julie & punkin (ga)

Member Since 2011
yesterday

just looked at the end of yesterday's punkin condo & wanted to clarify - he only had the electrical stimulation with it the one time, for just a few minutes til i called on my cell and got the vet back in to take the electrodes off. yesterday and 2 weeks ago it was just the needles, no electrical. the vet's been putting them in his feet - apparently that's some key point and that's also upsetting punkin. he hissed at him yesterday when he put one in his back foot. i'm just wondering if the ongoing pain relief is worth the upset at the beginning of the treatment. i think when he stops feeling the initial "buzz" from the needles it's ok.

the other thing that happened at the appt, is he was talking to me about using metacam for pain relief. he said "you should've seen your face when i said metacam!" :shock: hahaha not funny. i was shaking my head "no" as he was telling me about it. i told him about the experiences of people here and their cats. he said he gives his own cat metacam and that it's all about the dose and whether or not there are other conditions. he kept on the topic long after i was done. i'd told him that i did understand that there have been cats that used it, but if i tried it on punkin and he suffered from it, i wouldn't ever forgive myself. it was completely out for me. and yet he STILL talked more about it. said he'd like me to get info on doses that the other cats got. so i'm going to pm carolyn/latte about it.

for this morning, i've increased his dose back up by a shade to try to hit that sweet spot in between 7.0 and 7.25. he's happy enough, as usual, and is curled on the floor in front of me at the moment.
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322

Julie, I wonder if an animal communicator could check in with punkin about the acupuncture and the pain? Maybe find out what is causing him distress? Vets sure love metacam, kind of strange. How about some action today, punkin? You are sooo close to that yellow floor.
Li

ETA: z :lol:
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322

Good morning, guys!! So sorry that the electric stimulation has Punkin not enjoying his acupuncture! It's always interesting to me how sometimes vets just don't seem to want to take no for an answer. Good that you stood your ground on your decision! Hope you guys have a wonderful Saturday!
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277

Hi Julie!

May I ask what kind of pain that punkin is being treated for? Is it related to his ACRO? or is it joint/muscle/arthritis related?

Yay 7.125!!!!

Tanya
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277

acro kitties are generally assumed to have pain - he has a tumor in his pituitary gland that is very large. we had it irradiated in september, but the size of the tumor doesn't change much, the goal of the radiation is to have the cells not be able to replicate. so slowly as they finish their life-cycle, they are not replaced. in theory, he could go off of insulin with it.

so they often have headaches if their tumor is large. the growth hormone put out by the pituitary tumor makes them try to grow, and people with acro report that it hurts.

he does have arthritis, apparently most cats over 7 do. i give him cosequin for it, which seems to help. although i started that at the same time as the acupuncture, so it's hard to know what's doing what.
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277

That's a nice + 2 drop for Punkin. Poor Punk on the acupuncture. i hope he'll calm down if there is no more electrical shock involved. The AC might be worth a try.
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277

Ouchy headaches :sad:

Have you heard of therapeutic touch or reiki? I'm not sure if you are into that sort of thing...but I used to use it as part of my athletic therapy/injury rehab practice (I wound up in Finance for some strange reason due to managing health clinics lol :? ) I also use it on my kitties and it seems to help a lot.

Acupuncture is a really good treatment too, but with the electrodes I can imagine that it was a little weird for Punkin. :?

Tanya
 
Re: 3/31 punkin amps 322 +3/277

Hi Julie-
Regarding the information you and/or your vet are curious about...

Latte was prescribed metacam for' possible pain relief' due to 'possible' arthritis causing difficulty pooping (in the end this was not why it was difficult for her to go to the bathroom).

Weight: 7.6lbs (product sheet warns against giving it to dogs under 10lbs because it could cause an OD. Mixing with food could slow down absorption. This information was not given to me. I gave it via syringe into mouth)

Full blood panel done prior to metacam: Everything normal, including kidneys. In reality, it makes no difference if the renal values come back normal since kidney disease is not reflected in bloodwork until a good portion of the functioning is already shot. This is why it is a greater risk to give metacam to older cats.

Dose: given .4ml of 1.5 meloxicam oral suspension for dogs, followed by 2 days of .2 ml, then .2ml every 2-3 days for approximately three weeks before going into acute renal failure. I was gone the entire last week while she was given the metacam (roommate administered it). Her kidneys were likely failing her by the 2nd week, but I did not recognize the symptoms because no one told me what to look for. I just thought she was still constipated (causing inappetance, vomiting, etc).

The dose she was given was too high. Back then, vets were dosing based off of what was found successful in the UK. It was not taken into consideration that in the U.K. the concentration used and approved for in cats was .5 NOT 1.5, which was the only one available here. In the U.S. the 1.5 (for dogs) is still all that is available from what I understand. Another thing to keep in mind is the very narrow margin of safety (therapeutic index) in cats. This means there is little difference between a safe, effective dose and a toxic dose.

Here are the facts for your vet you can print up:
http://www.metacamkills.com/vetletter.pdf
(Letter from the manufacturer of Metacam telling vets it is not safe to give metacam oral suspension to cats. At this point the vet is held liable if they choose to go against the warnings of the manufacturer and FDA. Most vets do not care about this due to the fact that an animal is worth less than a used toaster in the court of law. Sad but true. It is very difficult to sue a vet.)

http://www.metacamkills.com/newlabel.pdf
(Client Information Sheet for dogs. Note the BLACK BOX warning. It is incredibly difficult to get the FDA to require this in drug labeling. If they require it, then it IS a serious warning, It means the risks do not outweigh the benefits.).

http://www.metacamkills.com/inject.pdf
(Client Information sheet for dogs/cats- injectible metacam. That is just in case the black box warning is missed in the oral metacam CIS).

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ProductSafetyInformation/ucm055369.htm
(This page is currently not available. Not sure why. Typically you can look up Meloxicam and review the number of Adverse Report sent to the FDA. If it is ever back up, you will find it very sobering.)

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ProductSafetyInformation/ucm055434.htm
(FDA information and links about veterinary NSAID for vets and consumers. The first page outlines risks and making sure the client is INFORMED)

That said, I do believe once all other options are exhausted and you are facing a choice of pts due to QOL, it may be a risk worth taking. That should be left to the owner's discretion after receiving all the information, weighing the pro's/con's, and ability to accept that it could cause more harm than good.

Since your vet asked YOU to get personal information about other people's cats, could I ask him for some information in return? ;-) Not trying to be 'smart'. He wants to open a dialogue, which I think is great.

  • I would like to know if he gives owners choices in pain relief, or just recommends metacam when he feels it may be appropriate.

    Does he use the injectible and ever follow it up with oral suspension? Does he let owners know this is not recommended?

    I would like to know how he doses metacam and the concentration he uses.

    Does he do labwork prior to offering metacam? Does he do follow up lab work a few weeks later?

    Does he give a client information sheet to each owner when prescribed metacam as recommended by the FDA? Does he tell owners about the black box warning prior to giving metacam? Are the pet owners told what symptoms to look for in case of an adverse reaction and how to deal with it?

    Before metacam came along, what did he find to be the most effective/safe pain relief for cats?
 
thanks for all the info carolyn!

this vet is one who used to be a "regular" vet and became certified to be an acupuncturist. i only see him for the acupuncture, although he is a real vet.

obviously, his first painkiller is the acupuncture. the ways they extend the benefit of the needles is through the electrical stimulation, which apparently makes it last significantly longer, and through chinese herbs. the herbs are upsetting punkin's stomach - we're on the 3rd version of them and this one isn't any better than the first two. punkin said no thanks to the electrical stimulation. so . . . i've been taking him in every other week for acupuncture for the purpose of pain relief.

for his own cat, he told me that he gives 3 drops every 3 days. i don't know what concentration he uses. he said the problem with metacam is especially in the dosing - that it lasts longer in a cat's body because the liver (?) doesn't process it as quickly as a dog. he knew all about the warnings about it and it did surprise me that he used it, because i think of him as an alternative kind of practitioner. he also mentioned use of it following surgery.

i'll email him and ask him your questions, though. he was very interested in a dialog about it.
 
Yay for a vet open to discussion - they are few and far between!

Punkin you know you are the man of my dreams but I gotta tell you you're way more dreamy when not wearing pink! How about you come down a bit so Auntie Serryn can have sweet dreams tonight.
 
Just for info Julie, The accupuncture on human started off thousands of yrs ago in China where the doc will puncture with needle on points of human body. This eventually evolved to today's accupuncture using the electronic device as stimulant. Using on both human & pets. There are still lots of chinese doc using the simple needle w/o the electronic stimulant.
Other than using accupuncture, some vets also practice chinese herbal to treat pets. Some burn a chinese herb (rolled like a large cigar) to lightly warm the accupunture point. This also relief pain.
 
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