3/23 Doodles AMPS 335 +10 359 (.25R) PMPS 314 +1.5 365 +4.5 359

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Doodles & Karen

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Doodles 3/22 Labs & R My sweet boy Doodles is such a trooper. He sits very nicely for his shots and with R in the picture so many more ear pokes. Thankful I can use both ears. We started Metoclopramide last night before dinner. It seemed to help his appy and he eats the compounded treats like a champ.

Today is the 6th cycle on the 4.75 dose of Lantus and also shot .25u of R. I'll be getting a +2 and go from there since most days he looks for a snack around there anyway.

Lots of vines and prayers to L&LL...it's been a bit rough for the kitties & beans these days. :bighug:
 
He was very demanding @ +1.5 so gave him a little S&C snack....as expected there's the RED! Will check again around + 3.5.
 
Glad Doodles is a little trouper with two injections of insulin and lots of ear pokes. It got to be I needed a secretary to help me track which side I gave the R on and which side I gave the Lantus on......... Do you feel like a pharmacist/vet yet, with all the drug dispensing and administering? Fingers and Paws and lot of prayers. Karen, you are a trouper too! :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Not what I was hoping to see @ +3.5. Pretty sure he got .25 R this morning but maybe it was closer to .1 :banghead::banghead: I'll check again around +6 as I don't see the need to do so before that.
 
If Doodles is still in the 300's at +10 should I shoot another .25u of R? It's also the 6th cycle on 4.75 units of Lantus. My original thought was to hold it for 10 cycles....any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Here are my thoughts and others might have some as well.

I think you could give it at +8 or +10; giving it at +8 “might” set him up for a better PS although the R will be wearing off by his PS. Giving it at +10 would set him up so the R is wearing off as his L “might” be onsetting but he has some interesting patterns in the past of still being up at +2 or +2.5 even when he was in blue/green. I didn’t go back to his 2015 SS but what do you think his onset was before ....not that it really matters that much now because it can change in the course of a few weeks and until we start seeing some movement on these doses, we won’t know what it is “now”. It was just an observation. But....I also think he’s due an increase to 5.5u 5.25u so that would change the above.

We know now that the meds are not going to drop his BG and it appears they have actually caused it to be higher. If you decide to increase to 5.5u 5.25u tonight, we need to think about when is the best time to give R later in the cycle based on a dose increase tonight. I didn’t give dose increases and R the same cycle but I was just working on the bouncing and not on pulling high, flat numbers down. I’m thinking if you give him another shot of R at +8, then you could increase tonight. While you would think that it will take him some time to fill the depot to 5.5u 5.25u, they don’t always read what they “should” do and with the R in the mix, it might bring him down quite a bit. If you do decide to increase tonight, I might give R at +8 and then see where he is at PMPS. That might be a little more conservative of an approach. If he’s still up there at PMPS, raise the dose and then we will start over with the R tomorrow at AMPS. What do you think? We can always try giving R to him again at +10 once we’ve got the new dose working.
 
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what do you think his onset was before
I'm not sure but his nadirs were because he was always pretty flat in those "good numbers". It seemed like his nadir was about +4/+5.

I’m thinking if you give him another shot of R at +8, then you could increase tonight.
If he's still high @ +8 then I'll give R. Chances are he will be :(

If you decide to increase to 5.5u tonight
a .5 increase would be 5.25 if I do increase. This is just getting ridiculous.

We know now that the meds are not going to drop his BG and it appears they have actually caused it to be higher
Yes this is the case and Dr. B confirmed it

I can live with blue and yellow but these pinks and reds have to go. At some point we might have to increase the R too?
 
Unsolicited thoughts for consideration (not meant to confuse)...
  • shoot 0.25u R at +10 today if Doodles is in the 300s
  • increase the Lantus dose to 5u tonight (that'll get you on a line as well as set you up for increases in half units going forward)
  • if Doodles is over 300 at AMPS tomorrow, shoot 5u Lantus and 0.5u R, but must test at R +1, +2, +3, and +4 (and maybe +5). Finding the onset, nadir, and duration of R is important.
  • you'll probably be able to drop the R dose back to 0.25u if shot again tomorrow at +8 - +10 or at PMPS since Doodles usually runs lower at night.

If I'm confusing matters, ignore this post. :)
 
a .5 increase would be 5.25 if I do increase. This is just getting ridiculous.
:mad::mad::mad: Of course it is!! I’m sorry. I’ve only had 1/2 cup of coffee yet today and obviously my math skills are not ginned up yet. I’ll fix that on my post but yes, you are correct, 0.5u increase would be 5.25u. i know this is really, really hard but here’s what I always told myself, “do NOT get attached to a dose. If she needs more insulin, she does so just give it to her”. Once I told myself that a couple times, I had no problems with increases.

If he's still high @ +8 then I'll give R. Chances are he will be
So you don’t plan on giving a dose increase tonight? Just want to be sure.

At some point we might have to increase the R too?
Yes but one step at a time. I think holding the R dose right now and increasing the L dose per the TR protocol is the way to go. Once we increase the L dose, then we can up the R. But others might have different ideas and I see Jill just did.

She does have a very good point about getting the syringe on a whole unit so then your increases can be on a line when you go up by 0.5u. Since I used calipers, I never had any problems dosing those “in between” numbers but when I wasn’t, they were a bear.
 
shoot 0.25u R at +10 today if Doodles is in the 300s
Ok, will do +10

increase the Lantus dose to 5u tonight (that'll get you on a line as well as set you up for increases in half units going forward)
My thought exactly, things are complicated enough!

since Doodles usually runs lower at night
I've notices slightly lower at night too which is something new. He was always higher at night.

BTW - thanks for your help...your comments are welcomed.
 
I'm glad you've got other options. I probably tend to be a bit more conservative with other people's cats and R especially starting out. It's also good Jill is checking in as I will be out of town Thurs-Tues.
 
I'm glad you've got other options. I probably tend to be a bit more conservative with other people's cats and R especially starting out. It's also good Jill is checking in as I will be out of town Thurs-Tues.
I was going back and forth about +8/+10 but hoping that the giving R @ +10 today .25u will help minimize the jump from the Lasix.

Should also mention he'll get another dose of the belly meds metoclopramide@ +10 too...it's given every 8-12 hours. No R will be given Friday morning since we're off to the vet.
 
I probably tend to be a bit more conservative with other people's cats and R especially starting out.
It's really not as aggressive as it may look.

  • shoot 0.25u R at +10 today if Doodles is in the 300s ------> Hoping to minimize the jump from the lasix as Karen mentioned above by shooting at +10. Last night (3/22) 0.25u R dropped Doodle 59 points between R+1 and R+2. That's a nice drop. Not worried about causing a bounce from it. "Maybe" if the R is shot earlier than last night we can use that momentum to our advantage when the Lantus onsets. Consider the timing as an experiment with trying to find what works best. This is safe to do only when kitty is traveling in high numbers.
  • increase the Lantus dose to 5u tonight (that'll get you on a line as well as set you up for increases in half units going forward) ------> Minimal dose increase considering the high numbers at this dose. It'll take several cycles to see what the dose will actually do. And, no, I haven't forgotten Young Again remains in the picture. The BG numbers are so high that I'm more concerned about hyperglycemia than I am about dealing with the possibility/probability of there being dry food in the picture. My thoughts on that will probably change as BG numbers come down. In the meantime, Karen is monitoring frequently.
  • if Doodles is over 300 at AMPS tomorrow, shoot 5u Lantus and 0.5u R, but must test at R +1, +2, +3, and +4 (and maybe +5). Finding the onset, nadir, and duration of R is important. ------> 0.25u of R didn't do anything for the AM cycle yesterday (3/22) or today. I'm not concerned about the increased Lantus dose (5u) kicking in yet. "If" it does begin to show a little movement, not too worried about it when Doodles' numbers have typically been in the 400s in the AM cycles since 3/17.
  • you'll probably be able to drop the R dose back to 0.25u if shot again tomorrow at +8 - +10 or at PMPS since Doodles usually runs lower at night. ------> Doodles had a decent response to 0.25u R in the PM cycle on 3/22. This will also be the 3rd cycle of the 5u Lantus dose. At this point, I'm not seeing a reason to adjust the R dose at the PM shot time. Obviously that could change.
Unless something unusual happens, this is basically a plan for the next 24 hours... that's it.

When pulling high flat numbers down it pays to be aggressive, but one also must also balance that aggressiveness with slowing down so one can see results. :)

Make sense?



 
Make sense?
Yes it all makes sense. Trust me if he wasn't so high I wouldn't be as concerned with pulling the numbers down. I will be able to test tomorrow and will comply with the hourly testing especially if I give the .5u of R. I also agree this plan is only for the next 24 hours. Also hoping to have the Acro/ IAA tests back by Friday but realistically it will be next week.

Lasix can cause Hyperglycemia which is my biggest concern. Again, my current goal is to get him between 130-250 if possible at least short term. Once he's in that range I'll reassess depending upon his heart and meds.

Thanks again Jill. I'll take down the ? mark.
 
It's really not as aggressive as it may look.
I agree but I just tend to be more conservative when someone starts using R and I don’t know how their cat will respond especially when they have other things going on. That’s my own personal preference even if an alternative does not seem aggressive. You have a lot more experience using R with other cats than I do :) so I tend to be more conservative in my suggestions.
 
Also hoping to have the Acro/ IAA tests back by Friday but realistically it will be next week.
Test results are completed on the Friday at MSU, which usually means not available until late that day or the next. I got my IAA result on Saturday and IGf-1 on Sunday. Fortunately the vet works the weekend.

It might be useful to have something on the SS or signature about meds and timing. I think your observations on the Lasix are spot on.

Good luck with the R experiments. You will also be working on building an R scale which means different R amounts based on the blood sugar at the time, and possibly when in the cycle you give it.

:bighug::bighug:
 
It might be useful to have something on the SS or signature about meds and timing. I think your observations on the Lasix are spot on.
Trying to slow my spinning head down so I did add it to my signature. The metoclopramide may vary so I'll put "M" in the block that I give it to him. I call it his belly med and can be given every 8-12 hours. Today I'm doing all 3 doses.

You will also be working on building an R scale which means different R amounts based on the blood sugar at the time, and possibly when in the cycle you give it.
It's starting to sink in....a little anyway.
 
Gave what I think was .25 of R or it could be closer to .1 @ +10. Also gave his belly meds.
Let's see how giving R at +10 works out... down 45 points @+2 (PMPS). :)

Doodles gets 20 units of Lasix at AMPS and only 10 units at PMPS which likely explains why he's running a little lower at night.
Interesting and good to know.

Trying to slow my spinning head down so I did add it to my signature. The metoclopramide may vary so I'll put "M" in the block that I give it to him. I call it his belly med and can be given every 8-12 hours. Today I'm doing all 3 doses.
Good idea. When Alex was on a whole bunch of meds at once I found it helpful to note the med and the timing in the corresponding cell on the ss. It also helped me remember what had to be given when with meds that had to be staggered.


It's starting to sink in....a little anyway.
You're juggling a lot... not to mention the emotional involvement. Cut yourself some slack. It'll all come together.
:bighug:

 
Let's see how giving R at +10 works out... down 45 points @+2 (PMPS). :)
I'm very happy with that! Bring him down a little at a time.

You're juggling a lot... not to mention the emotional involvement
Dropping glasses on the tile, leaving the stove on (it's electric) and over-filling the coffee pot. DH prefers me to stay out of the kitchen these days.

When Alex was on a whole bunch of meds at once I found it helpful to note the med and the timing in the corresponding cell on the ss
The SS is a life saver and so is L&LL!
 
He had a snack @ +1.5 so giving him a break until +4.5 or so. This way his ears can be ready for pokes from AMPS - +5. They are on the raw side and he's doing the usual sleeping until his bedtime snack.
 
I'm not sure who will be around when you shoot in the morning, but if you have any doubts about shooting R... don't.
Using R is always optional. :)

Sleep well...
 
Just getting online to check on you and Doodles. Glad you've had plenty of help today and now a plan to move forward! :)

All kitties have a dose that will move them, it's just a matter of getting to it safely. But you will get there and his numbers will improve.:bighug:
 
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