MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Well a better start than yesterday.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265, pmps-314, +3-384
- Thread starter MommaOfMuse
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Dan and Frankie
Member Since 2013
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271
Same for Frankie today... Good luck!!
Same for Frankie today... Good luck!!
Libby and Lucy
Member Since 2009
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Actually today isn't looking bad at all, so far. Flat is good, though it does look like Autumn is not generally a believer in "flat" so it might mean she has something up her sleeve for later on.
I have a few thoughts about Autumn's spreadsheet, if you are interested in another set of eyes. No "answers," but some ideas that might spark other ideas.
Well, that's something anyway. ;-)MommaOfMuse said:
Actually today isn't looking bad at all, so far. Flat is good, though it does look like Autumn is not generally a believer in "flat" so it might mean she has something up her sleeve for later on.
I have a few thoughts about Autumn's spreadsheet, if you are interested in another set of eyes. No "answers," but some ideas that might spark other ideas.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Come on Autumn girl, come play in the grass with Jez and Lucian. :thumbup
Come on Autumn girl, come play in the grass with Jez and Lucian. :thumbup
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Libby I would love your thoughts on Autumn..and Yep I'm think flat pink yesterday and flat yellow today means she has a something up her sleeve for me later.
As she really isn't know for running flat.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Libby I would love your thoughts on Autumn..and Yep I'm think flat pink yesterday and flat yellow today means she has a something up her sleeve for me later.
As she really isn't know for running flat.Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Ah Mel, seems like there has to be one in every bunch, I guess today its Autumns turn not to get with the program.
Em
MommaOfMuse said:Libby I would love your thoughts on Autumn..and Yep I'm think flat pink yesterday and flat yellow today means she has a something up her sleeve for me later.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Ah Mel, seems like there has to be one in every bunch, I guess today its Autumns turn not to get with the program.
Em
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Well she is a tortie...which just about says it all there...lol Just has to do it her way.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Well she is a tortie...which just about says it all there...lol Just has to do it her way.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Libby and Lucy
Member Since 2009
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
I say all the time that because Lantus and Levemir are depot drugs, that I look at the patterns in "waves" of a few days at a time, rather than looking at each 12 hour cycle by itself. The patterns don't always line up with the clock, which can make them difficult to see.
What I think I am seeing is that Autumn seems to do very well on 0.5u for a while, but then she throws some really low numbers that force you to reduce the dose. The reduced dose doesn't always do as well (one of these days it will work, though! Only Autumn knows when...).
So, are those lows really because the dose is too high, or is there something else contributing? And if it was possible to learn when those lows are coming and head them off at the pass, might the dose otherwise be safe? And if so, how do you know when she REALLY needs a reduction? The thing that jumps out at me is that when Autumn does land in the 30s, she stays low for a LONG time. I'm sure the fact that she hasn't hit nadir yet contributes, but it bears notice. You don't want to have her hitting 30s if you can't get her back up pretty easily.
If Autumn was my cat, I think I would try the following things (not necessarily in this order):
1. Hold the current 0.5u dose for at least 6 cycles. If she sees any blue or green, hold it longer. I would probably aim for 8-10 cycles before increasing if she sees blue/green, just to be sure we've seen all the action that dose is going to give us. But if she doesn't start seeing good numbers, increase the dose. Obviously if she hits 30s, you'll have to reduce the dose and go to #3 below.
2. Try to learn how to predict when she is going to head for the basement. It looks like those extreme lows often come when she has a bounce clearing. So maybe if she has a bounce clearing, you can feed differently in that cycle to try to prevent her from going so low. For example, on 3/9 she was in the 40s at AMPS, bounced to at least 272 by the PM cycle, then (probably) came down all night and was still dropping into AMPS on 3/10. Then she just kept on dropping, and at around +4 the insulin kicked in and added even more momentum to that drop. Jojo used to use the analogy of a rock rolling down the hill, picking up speed as it went. 1/28-1/29 looks similar. Some other days don't fit that pattern, so there may be another pattern that we still need to find.
Maybe getting a +4 on days when you think a bounce is clearing would help you see that she is dropping fast, then you can feed a snack to put on the brakes. If the extreme lows are really coming mostly from the momentum of a bounce clearing at the same time the insulin onsets, then it MIGHT be that the dose is not actually too high on all the other days, if you can just intervene on those days. The trick is in figuring out when those days will be.
3. Next time you reduce the dose, hold the new dose at least 6 cycles (8-10 if she is seeing blue/green) even if the overall pattern is high. I see little hints that a lower dose might end up being good for Autumn, but usually you don't hold the reduced doses long enough to see for sure. I'm not suggesting that you reduce the dose right now. Sometimes going up helps them go back down again, so giving a few days of the 0.5u dose might help kick-start her progress again.
Once we are a little more tuned in to where Autumn's good dose might be, then it might be useful to talk about strategically feeding the curve. I don't mean micro-managing meals, I just mean figuring out whether there might be times in Autumn's normal cycle when a little snack might help level her out. Lev cycles tend to run later than Lantus cycles, so maybe saving a couple tsp of food for +7 or +8 might help prop up her nadir. That is something to experiment with.
My gut says that for right now, Autumn probably needs the slightly higher dose to help her bring down the high numbers. The goal would be to try to prevent those low numbers so you'll be able to keep her at the higher dose long enough to allow her to flatten out (without getting too crazy about it, if you're working too hard to keep the numbers from tanking then the dose is too high). Then when she starts getting reductions, hopefully they will stick. We'll see, sometimes the cats have completely different ideas. :lol:
I say all the time that because Lantus and Levemir are depot drugs, that I look at the patterns in "waves" of a few days at a time, rather than looking at each 12 hour cycle by itself. The patterns don't always line up with the clock, which can make them difficult to see.
What I think I am seeing is that Autumn seems to do very well on 0.5u for a while, but then she throws some really low numbers that force you to reduce the dose. The reduced dose doesn't always do as well (one of these days it will work, though! Only Autumn knows when...).
So, are those lows really because the dose is too high, or is there something else contributing? And if it was possible to learn when those lows are coming and head them off at the pass, might the dose otherwise be safe? And if so, how do you know when she REALLY needs a reduction? The thing that jumps out at me is that when Autumn does land in the 30s, she stays low for a LONG time. I'm sure the fact that she hasn't hit nadir yet contributes, but it bears notice. You don't want to have her hitting 30s if you can't get her back up pretty easily.
If Autumn was my cat, I think I would try the following things (not necessarily in this order):
1. Hold the current 0.5u dose for at least 6 cycles. If she sees any blue or green, hold it longer. I would probably aim for 8-10 cycles before increasing if she sees blue/green, just to be sure we've seen all the action that dose is going to give us. But if she doesn't start seeing good numbers, increase the dose. Obviously if she hits 30s, you'll have to reduce the dose and go to #3 below.
2. Try to learn how to predict when she is going to head for the basement. It looks like those extreme lows often come when she has a bounce clearing. So maybe if she has a bounce clearing, you can feed differently in that cycle to try to prevent her from going so low. For example, on 3/9 she was in the 40s at AMPS, bounced to at least 272 by the PM cycle, then (probably) came down all night and was still dropping into AMPS on 3/10. Then she just kept on dropping, and at around +4 the insulin kicked in and added even more momentum to that drop. Jojo used to use the analogy of a rock rolling down the hill, picking up speed as it went. 1/28-1/29 looks similar. Some other days don't fit that pattern, so there may be another pattern that we still need to find.
Maybe getting a +4 on days when you think a bounce is clearing would help you see that she is dropping fast, then you can feed a snack to put on the brakes. If the extreme lows are really coming mostly from the momentum of a bounce clearing at the same time the insulin onsets, then it MIGHT be that the dose is not actually too high on all the other days, if you can just intervene on those days. The trick is in figuring out when those days will be.
3. Next time you reduce the dose, hold the new dose at least 6 cycles (8-10 if she is seeing blue/green) even if the overall pattern is high. I see little hints that a lower dose might end up being good for Autumn, but usually you don't hold the reduced doses long enough to see for sure. I'm not suggesting that you reduce the dose right now. Sometimes going up helps them go back down again, so giving a few days of the 0.5u dose might help kick-start her progress again.
Once we are a little more tuned in to where Autumn's good dose might be, then it might be useful to talk about strategically feeding the curve. I don't mean micro-managing meals, I just mean figuring out whether there might be times in Autumn's normal cycle when a little snack might help level her out. Lev cycles tend to run later than Lantus cycles, so maybe saving a couple tsp of food for +7 or +8 might help prop up her nadir. That is something to experiment with.
My gut says that for right now, Autumn probably needs the slightly higher dose to help her bring down the high numbers. The goal would be to try to prevent those low numbers so you'll be able to keep her at the higher dose long enough to allow her to flatten out (without getting too crazy about it, if you're working too hard to keep the numbers from tanking then the dose is too high). Then when she starts getting reductions, hopefully they will stick. We'll see, sometimes the cats have completely different ideas. :lol:
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265
Thanks Libby,
You have definitely given me a few things to think about and try with this girl. I honestly never expected to get to this point with her, as long as she went untreated before I adopted her, I figured the best I was going to get for her was to get her regulated and find a dose that held her there. But it already seems she has different ideas than I did... :lol: I does to me look like she is trying hard to walk her way off the juice just that she can't quite hold those reductions just yet. So I can see where possible holding the higher dose and steering her with a few little snacks when she is headed for the basement might help her hang on to those reductions when they finally decide to stick for good.
And yeah I probably do react to her staying in higher numbers a little quicker than I should, after losing Musette to DKA (albeit because an ER missed her RBC were tanking is what actual killed her) I still get very paranoid about her staying up to long although she isn't nearly as ketone prone as Musette was, nor is she hard to catch in the LB to test for them...She is a nice high sitter and not shy at all about her litter box habits so it is very easy to just slide the ketostix under her bum and catch a nice stream. (Oh the things we discuss here.. :roll: ).
A couple of things that I have thought about with her as well is perhaps playing with her diet some to see if something a little lower in carbs might help as well, obviously I can't adjust everyone's because feeding 14 all FF or Wellness just isn't going to happen here, but I could probably feed just Autumn the FF and the rest their beloved Friskies or Stay with Friskies all the way around but make it so that Autumn is only getting the Special diet stuff and the rest have the regular pate flavors. Or even still getting what we normally serve and adding some raw ground turkey to it or raw chunks of chicken...which would 1) stretch our catfood budget and 2) give it a higher protein boost as well as taking down the carb content. And I know the rest of the Fur Gang would love the raw ground turkey or chicken chunks, as I nearly get mugged everytime I am working with either for the human's to consume. And those are two things that I know for sure I can find in this 1/2 a horse town. I'm pretty limited on what is available in the form of canned food. And the nearest Petco or PetSmart is about 200 miles from here and at the price of gas and driving a 2001 Ford F150 making those kinds of trips just to feed the cats is cost prohibitive.
Put she is at least pretty easy to pull back up when she decides to race for the basement, it is just going to be to try to figure out when she is going to make that race and stop her before she can get her momentum going. Once she is down she tends to stay down but at least surf those safer numbers. I do know that weather seems to affect her somewhat so maybe that is something else to start adding to her notes..weather, moon phase, and carb %s to see if any of it has a bearing on when she is going to tank and when she is going to stay higher.
I also think she may take longer to decide if she likes a dose or not, at least she always has seemed that way to me, that she is more in that 8-14 day range before she truly shows me what she wants to do on a dose. While I never expected to be in this position with her where I'm trying to figure how to wean her off the juice it would be absolutely delightful for both of us if we could get her there. She is such a sweet little girl (if you can call 14lbs little) who has not had the happiest life up to this point I would love to see her feeling the best she can and not having to get poked and stuck all the time would be just icing on the cake. Although this is really uncharted territory for me. Maxwell spoiled me into not learning this part of the dance, he just woke up one day and said thanks mom but I think I'm done with those needles now, and hasn't looked back in 2 years..lol
Mel
Thanks Libby,
You have definitely given me a few things to think about and try with this girl. I honestly never expected to get to this point with her, as long as she went untreated before I adopted her, I figured the best I was going to get for her was to get her regulated and find a dose that held her there. But it already seems she has different ideas than I did... :lol: I does to me look like she is trying hard to walk her way off the juice just that she can't quite hold those reductions just yet. So I can see where possible holding the higher dose and steering her with a few little snacks when she is headed for the basement might help her hang on to those reductions when they finally decide to stick for good.
And yeah I probably do react to her staying in higher numbers a little quicker than I should, after losing Musette to DKA (albeit because an ER missed her RBC were tanking is what actual killed her) I still get very paranoid about her staying up to long although she isn't nearly as ketone prone as Musette was, nor is she hard to catch in the LB to test for them...She is a nice high sitter and not shy at all about her litter box habits so it is very easy to just slide the ketostix under her bum and catch a nice stream. (Oh the things we discuss here.. :roll: ).
A couple of things that I have thought about with her as well is perhaps playing with her diet some to see if something a little lower in carbs might help as well, obviously I can't adjust everyone's because feeding 14 all FF or Wellness just isn't going to happen here, but I could probably feed just Autumn the FF and the rest their beloved Friskies or Stay with Friskies all the way around but make it so that Autumn is only getting the Special diet stuff and the rest have the regular pate flavors. Or even still getting what we normally serve and adding some raw ground turkey to it or raw chunks of chicken...which would 1) stretch our catfood budget and 2) give it a higher protein boost as well as taking down the carb content. And I know the rest of the Fur Gang would love the raw ground turkey or chicken chunks, as I nearly get mugged everytime I am working with either for the human's to consume. And those are two things that I know for sure I can find in this 1/2 a horse town. I'm pretty limited on what is available in the form of canned food. And the nearest Petco or PetSmart is about 200 miles from here and at the price of gas and driving a 2001 Ford F150 making those kinds of trips just to feed the cats is cost prohibitive.
Put she is at least pretty easy to pull back up when she decides to race for the basement, it is just going to be to try to figure out when she is going to make that race and stop her before she can get her momentum going. Once she is down she tends to stay down but at least surf those safer numbers. I do know that weather seems to affect her somewhat so maybe that is something else to start adding to her notes..weather, moon phase, and carb %s to see if any of it has a bearing on when she is going to tank and when she is going to stay higher.
I also think she may take longer to decide if she likes a dose or not, at least she always has seemed that way to me, that she is more in that 8-14 day range before she truly shows me what she wants to do on a dose. While I never expected to be in this position with her where I'm trying to figure how to wean her off the juice it would be absolutely delightful for both of us if we could get her there. She is such a sweet little girl (if you can call 14lbs little) who has not had the happiest life up to this point I would love to see her feeling the best she can and not having to get poked and stuck all the time would be just icing on the cake. Although this is really uncharted territory for me. Maxwell spoiled me into not learning this part of the dance, he just woke up one day and said thanks mom but I think I'm done with those needles now, and hasn't looked back in 2 years..lol
Mel
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265, pmps-314
Well not a great day for her but better than yesterday so hopefully tomorrow will be better still for her and she will get back down to her blues and greens again.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Well not a great day for her but better than yesterday so hopefully tomorrow will be better still for her and she will get back down to her blues and greens again.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265, pmps-314
Keeping fingers/paws crossed for you.
Lucian decided to play astronaut tonight, again. :roll:
Keeping fingers/paws crossed for you.
Lucian decided to play astronaut tonight, again. :roll:
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
Re: 3/17 Autumn amps-271,+6-265, pmps-314
Amazing analysis from Libby! Kind of my hunch too.
I'm in awe of how clearly and concisely Libby is able to spell it all out.
In the mean time... more patience pants. ;-)MommaOfMuse said:
Amazing analysis from Libby! Kind of my hunch too.
I'm in awe of how clearly and concisely Libby is able to spell it all out.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
LOL I think I now own stock in Patience Pants...and steel toed dancing shoes...lol
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
You know I have a pair of heels almost like that except mine have spikes on them..lol No seriously the have little silver spikes, which I really need to remember when I sit down wearing them as I tend to sit with one of my feet under me..lol.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
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