3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3 151

Status
Not open for further replies.

BaileyUK

Member Since 2013
Have just tested Baileys PMPS and we have a 4.5 (80)
He ate about 2 teaspoons of food just before his bg test,any advice as his insulin is due now,and a late shot is going to throw his numbers (which have been good for the last few weeks out)
I have given him his insulin when he has been 150 but never been this low at shot time before.
Any help will be much appreciated.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

just saw your question, diane.

the concern is always - do you have enough test strips, high carb food or karo syrup, and are you prepared to test.

a low preshot number can be like a gift, allowing you to lower the entire range of numbers. shooting low can also flatten out the entire cycle - instead of diving down, you might have a cycle that only varies by 20 points the whole 12 hours.

but . . . big caveat. you don't usually test much, and you certainly can't shoot low and not test for several hours. you'll need to get a +1 and a +2 to see where he's headed.

i guess the question is do you want to do Tight Regulation after all? he's giving you the chance, but the testing comes with it.

btw, i'm trying to look at his ss and will brb. it's just not loading yet.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

looks like it might have been a half hour or so since you tested. can you retest and post the number again?

fyi, for the future, usually you wouldn't feed when you are stalling and waiting for the numbers to rise.

another point, if you shoot this 80, your sleep tonight is going to be stalled waiting to make sure he is safe. there's no way to predict when that will be.

at the same time, he's having a great response to the insulin and this might be a breakthrough for him.



Here are the guidelines from the Low Numbers yellow-starred sticky:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

Hi Julie,thanks for coming to the rescue,I have all the emergency box,and I can test for the next 4 hours,he was 100 half an hour after his PMPS, but as I said he had a little food at shot time.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

with a 100, i'd shoot. but i can't promise 4 hours will be long enough for testing him. Bailey will do what he does.

we may have been posting at the same time - i also quoted the post by Libby of what to do when faced with a low preshot number.

it's your call. what do you think?
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

your question from the other post - if you shoot the 100, how often would you have to test?

you would need to get a +1 and a +2 and go from there. you'd look at the drop from the number you shot, and see how rapid the drop is.

if he rises, he might be bouncing and this might be a non-event.

i have to add, i can't stay on for the next 4 hours. i've been on here solid for 3-4 hours already this morning and have some things i've got to do. but here in the US it's saturday and there are usually plenty of people online on saturday afternoon to help with low numbers if Bailey needs help.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

yes - normally you give the usual dose.

if you're worried, one of the options is always to shoot a reduced dose, say 1/2 or so. your call.

when you shoot, would you change the subject line of the 1st post in this thread and go to the standard format

3/15 Baileyuk pmps 100

and then update it with new numbers as you get test so it says something like

3/15 Baileyuk pmps 100 +1/120 (or whatever) and just keep adding on new tests.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

I can watch out for you for the next 5 hours or so. I will be logging on and off, but will keep checking in on you. Just please keep your first Subject Line updated with your latest tests.
 
3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given

BaileyUK said:
Just given bailey his shot reduced from 4.5 to 3.5 units to play it safe testing again @ +1 and +2

I'll check in with you in an hour, then.

It is better if you keep one thread or condo as we like to call them per day. It's just because if people start responding to more than one, it can get confusing especially if people don't know you have multiple threads going.

You can delete the thread you just started if no one has posted to it yet, and then if you would just change the first Subject Line to "3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given" in this thread, that would help.

See you in a bit. Let us know how he is eating. You'll be fine.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

Can you please delete your other thread? We encourage one condo (thread) per cat per day. Otherwise, people who need help get lost and information you need is spread across several different threads. You want to keep the information consolidated.
 
Re: Baileyuk advise please PMPS 80

I think there might be an X button between the Edit button and ! button in the upper right just above the box you write in.

Let me know if it doesn't work.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given

Good job on the Subject Line.

Is it time for the +1 test, yet?
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166

Thanks yes just tested @ +1 and he is 166 so on the up.

He's asking for food are we ok to feed him?

How often should we continue testing him do you think?

Thanks so much for this.

Diane and bailey
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166

Good job. Let us know what his +2 is. I'll be back to check in on you two.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166

BaileyUK said:
Thanks yes just tested @ +1 and he is 166 so on the up.

He's asking for food are we ok to feed him?

How often should we continue testing him do you think?

Thanks so much for this.

Diane and bailey
Yes, you can feed him, certainly.
Let's see what his +2 is. If it is higher, I would probably get a +3, just to be safe. The thing is with Lantus because it's a depot insulin, just because you gave a lesser dose in a cycle doesn't mean his BGs will dive less that cycle. The depot is still there from the 4.5 dose. Giving a reduced dose for a cycle (what we call a BSC) can affect later cycles as the depot has to build back up again.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166

I see he's 160 at +2. I'm glad it looks like he's surfing along at the moment. I would get the +3.

I'm going to run to the store. I'll be back in a few minutes. Yes, you can feed him :)
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160

This is all good data gathering for the future, when you may run into another lower than normal PS test.
Always post if you are unsure or want help or if the PS is below 60. Hopefully with food, he'll surf in the blues all night.
Do you have plenty of test strips, just in case? HC and/or syrup?
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160

Hi Diane,

I don't have any testing/dosing advice for you. I just wanted to stop in and say that I'm so happy to see Bailey in some really good numbers. That's fantastic! :-D I hope the rest of the cycle goes well for you two!

Shelly
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160

Thanks Shelly appreciate your kind words :)

Dyana thank you once again - what time do you think we should shoot him in the morning he was 1.5 hrs late with his PM shot this evening.

Thanks again!
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

That depends on his numbers.

Normally we say that you can adjust a shot schedule in 15 minute increments once per cycle, or 30 minutes once per day.
If his numbers are really high, like over 300 and you are going to be home to monitor and have supplies, then you can sometimes shoot 1 hour early, but you have to be prepared because an early shot is like a dose increase because of the depot.

There may not be many people around at your AM test time. If you are going to be home tomorrow and have supplies, and he is 150 or over, then I would give his shot 15 minutes early.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

He is surfing nicely. Are you going to do a +4? If not, I would set an alarm and test at +5 and see where he is at and post the number. I will probably not be on at your +5, but someone will.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

Thanks for deleting the extra post. It's hard sometimes to get caught up on how the board operates.

This looks like a lovely cycle. It also points out why we encourage shooting lower numbers. Shooting low doesn't necessarily mean that numbers will plummet. Bailey is spending the cycle in lovely blue numbers.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

Baileys AM normal shot time is 6.10
Today he got his PM shot at 7.20 (1hour 10mins late)
Please clarify at what time to inject him tomorrow AM to bring him back in line with his normal time?

I will test at +5
Thank you so very much Dyane for all your wisdom and support,I know the last few days have been difficult for you and yours,I much appreciate your time.
Hope you have a peaceful weekend,and your boy improves.
Diane
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

Diane --

You have two choices when it comes to moving Bailey's shot time:
  • You can move the time 15 min. eariier at each shot time (i.e., twice a day) until Bailey's back on schedule or
  • You can move the shot time 30 min. earlier once a day.
It really depends on what's easiest for you and whether you think Bailey's numbers may be effected by the 30 min. change.

There is a third option. If you test at +11 and Bailey's numbers are high (e.g., above 300), you can shoot an hour early. Actually, if you were able to closely monitor and feel comfortable managing the numbers should they drop, you could simply shoot an hour early. My concern would be that there might not be anyone around if you do shoot an hour early to help you out if Bailey's numbers drop.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

Thank you SIenne,
Baileys is doing good today,he has just had a large supper and is now catching up on some sleep!
His numbers have been so good for the past month (no pinks) I do hope this shooting off schedule is not going to upset things.Out of the first two options which do you think is the least likely to disrupt his numbers? And when you said shoot either 15 or 30 minutes early I presume you mean from the late time of 7.20 that was the delayed time,and not his normal shot time?
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

If his numbers are not too low tomorrow morning, you can do this:
Sunday
AM 7:00
PM 6:45
Monday
AM 6:30
PM 6:15
That would effect his number the least.

You can also do the change in 30 minutes increments like this:
Sunday
AM 6:45
PM 6:45
Monday
6:15
6:15

+11 tests when you can get them, always help to see if he is rising or dropping or surfing along, when you compare them to the +12 test.

You did a great job so far.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

Thanks Dyana,
I will see what the morning brings!
Am I to keep to his normal insulin dose of 4.5? In the morning?
I did lower his last dose to 3.5
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

It looks like you shot a one time, reduced dose this evening. We refer to this as a BCS (big chicken sh*t) dose. You would return to your previous dose of 4.5u for your AMPS.

You'll need to hold the 4.5u dose for a minimum of 6 cycles/3 days (or 10 cycles/5 days when the nadirs are typically below 200). Any time you change a dose, you need to let the dose stabilize.

In looking at Bailey's SS, if you are following the TR protocol, you want to evaluate the dose at the end of the 3 days (or 5 days if the nadirs are below 200 like Bailey's). If Bailey isn't in normal numbers, then it's time for a dose increase. It looks like Bailey was due for a dose increase. However, and this is a big however, you really need to get at least one test during every evening cycle. Bailey could be earning dose reductions during the PM cycle and you would never know.
 
Re: 3/15 Baileyuk PMPS 113 shot given / +1 166 / +2 160 / +3

just checking back in - it looks like Bailey ended up with a very nice cycle tonight. although i know you missed your sleep, it's good that you checked him.

i think your question about what time to shoot in the morning was answered. if not, holler!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top