3/11 Elie AMPS 241, 1 unit, +2 313, +4 272

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thebigfuzz

thebigfuzz

Member Since 2012
Hi All!

We are new here, I hope I'm doing things right. We had our first dose of 2 units on Friday at the vet and his numbers came down and stayed down all day yesterday (in the normal zone). No shot yesterday. Began again this morning with 1 unit...

Hopefully all goes well.

Elie is on wet Medi Cal Reducing formula, but only is willing to eat about 1/4 can at a time. Does everyone feed more than twice a day? Depending on his numbers at 4pm, we may give him a snack.

Also, what is everyone's NO Shoot number at +12? We were thinking 180, but not sure...

We have a bit more info on us on the Health forum
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=65905

Yay Day 1...here we go!
 
hi and welcome! love your description of Elie as The Big Fuzz!

you've found the right place - i read your post on the Main Health Board and hopefully, tight regulation is going to be just the thing for Elie.

most new people don't shoot under 150 or 200. 180 is a good line too - right smack in there. it's what you are comfortable with. what we encourage you to do is to post here daily and if you see a preshot number under 150-200ish, ask for help making the decision on whether or not to shoot. while you are waiting for an answer, don't feed. that's really important - don't feed while waiting for an answer.

the no-shoot number changes with experience. once you have some tests in and can identify when your cat's nadir (low point of the curve) is, and feel a little more comfortable with the whole thing, we shoot all the way down into 50's. cats who are on their way off of insulin - and if the vet is correct and this is transitional diabetes, you will experience this - take smaller and smaller doses while their BG remains in good numbers until they are off. you don't need to remember this part at this point. there's a lot to learn and we'll help you learn it at the point where you do need the info. i just wanted to answer your question. if you look at people's subject lines, you'll see what number they shot after an "amps" or "pmps."

what you will find we do is probably not that different than you might do for your dad. when we see numbers that are heading lower, we stop the drop by using some carbs. cat food with gravy has most of the carbs in the gravy itself, so we pop open a can, give a teaspoon of the gravy part, wait 15-20 minutes and retest. we can "steer" their numbers that way. a low number is anything under 50.

2 meals a day is probably not enough for a diabetic cat. most of us give the majority of the food in the first 4ish hours after the shot so that the insulin and carbs arrive together! i feed punkin about 1/2 of his morning food with his shot and give the rest spread out over about 3 hours. this is something you can play with if you need to, but you don't at this point. at this point what you need to know is that Elie needs to eat more than twice a day and it's ideal if most of it is in the first few hours after his shot. some cats graze and that's ok for many cats.

do you know much about that particular food? i don't know its carb content. we like to feed under 10% carbs - most of us feed off of the Janet & Binky's list so we know what the carb count is. i feed punkin about 4-5% carbs.

super job getting the hometesting started and getting a spreadsheet going already. i saw you were already given a ton of links and you've already been doing some reading.

what questions do you have? just ask away and we'll do our best to teach you how to help Elie.
 
Thanks!

Medi Cal is a vet clinic reducing formula that our cats (we have 2 others) have been eating for a number of years. We were using a few different types and Wellness brand dry food mixed in too, but since they have a bit of tartar we tried a Dental Formula which seemed to kick this whole thing off. The dental forumla is also medi cal.

I am not sure how many carbs, or how to calculate it, but our vet says that the reducing formula is what is perscribed for diabetic cats. Here are the ingredients.

Ingredients

Water Sufficient for Processing, Pork By-Products, Chicken Liver, Mackerel, Rice Flour, Natural Flavour, Guar Gum, Carrageenan, Flaxseed, Tricalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate, Brewer’s Yeast, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Taurine, Vitamins (DL-Alpha-Tocopherol Acetate [Source of Vitamin E], Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement [Vitamin B2], Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [Vitamin B6], Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid and Vitamin D3 Supplement), Fructo-Oligosaccharides, Trace Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Iron Sulphate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite and Calcium Iodate) and L-Carnitine. Approximately 120 kcal/can, 165 g/can

Analysis table
Amount
Crude Protein (g/1000 kcal)
110.0
Crude Fat (g/1000 kcal)
45.3
Crude Fibre (g/1000 kcal)
1.4
EPA/DHA (g/1000 kcal)
0.4
Minerals
Amount
Calcium (g/1000 kcal)
2.5
Phosphorus (g/1000 kcal)
2.5
Sodium (g/1000 kcal)
1.4
Potassium (g/1000 kcal)
3.2
Magnesium (g/1000 kcal)
0.2

Other nutrients
Amount
Taurine (g/1000 kcal)
0.7
 
Welcome to Lantus Land, Tanya.

Generally, we use "as fed" values to calculate the carbohydrates in food. If there's any way to get those numbers, it will help. To be honest, it doesn't look like what you're feeding is a particularly high quality food if the primary source of protein is animal by-products vs. muscle meat. I don't think anyone gave you the link to Lisa Pierson, DVM's website on feline nutrition. If your cat had blockages, I don't know that's I'd want to be feeding anything with fish in it on a daily basis.

Most of us give a few small meals before nadir.

Also, given some of the symptoms you noted, have they resolved at all or is he still lethargic and walking in circles?
 
Thanks for the info...

It's possible that the food isn't awesome, it is a vet clinic perscribed food, and they don't love it. I am considering switching to Friscas Chicken or Mariners Catch as some suggest here. I really just want to get some kind of "stable" routine going before I switch his food. And he's a bit "backed up" so to speak so don't want to mess with digestion too much either.

He is still circling a bit to the left and seems a bit dizzy sometimes. No vomiting or nystagmus (eye shaking), but his energy levels haven't been normal yet. 75% maybe. We waited a week to start any diabetes treatment to give him vitamin B and antibiotics along with some really fatty critical care food just to get some calories in him. He is eating again, but I have to lift the dish to chin level to get him to eat a proper meal 1/4 can. He generally circles a bit during feeding. He had lost a few pounds and is now 20lbs. (Maine Coon). Today he ate a bit with the dish down on a slightly raised surface, so perhaps progress.

I just had a bit of a play session with him, and I think his sugars are coming down after this mornings injection, but will know more in a half hour when it's testing time! We are eagerly awaiting our first Nadir!

Tanya
 
Here's what i found on the fructo-oligosaccharides:

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...&activeIngredientName=FRUCTO-OLIGOSACCHARIDES

Fructo-oligosaccharides are made up of plant sugars linked in chains. They are taken from asparagus, Jerusalem artichokes, and soybeans, or produced in the laboratory. People use these sugars to make medicine.

Fructo-oligosaccharides are used for constipation, traveler's diarrhea, and high cholesterol levels.

Fructo-oligosaccharides are also used as prebiotics. Prebiotics act as food for “good” bacteria in the intestine. Don't confuse prebiotics with probiotics such as lactobacillus, bifidobacteria, and saccharomyces, which are live organisms that are good for health. People sometimes take probiotics by mouth to increase the number in their intestine.

In foods, fructo-oligosaccharides are used as a sweetener.

How does it work?
Fructo-oligosaccharides pass undigested into the colon where they increase bowel mass and promote growth of certain bacteria that are thought to be beneficial.
Click to expand...

don't know how that affects blood glucose, but it does sound like it's a form of sugar.

most of us feed food that does not come from the vet - wellness, evo, fancy feast, friskies, special kitty, etc. - using the janet & binky's list to get ones that are low carbs. many newly diagnosed kitties experience a large drop in blood glucose numbers just by switching to low carb canned foods.

if he has to have that exact food for medical reasons, then he might need a larger dose of insulin to compensate for the carbs. although saying that, we don't know what the carb value is for the medi-cal.
 
Re: 3/11 Elie AMPS 241, 1 unit, +2 313, +4 272, +8 302

Our vet asked us to test every 4 hours, but now I think we missed his low?

AMPS 241
+2 - 313
+4 - 272
+8 - 302

We are going to get a +10 in 10 mins so we will see if he is going up or down...

We fed him 1/8 can at 2pm because he vomited some bile. He was hungry. We have found that if we wait too long to feed him, he vomits. This has been that way since he was a kitten.

After the +8 of 302 we took him for a walk down the hallway and then played a little laser!

Tanya
 
Hi -

Just stopping by to say "Welcome to LantusLand"!!! Great job, getting all those tests, and playing laser to boot!
 
Tanya:

Did your vet do a thorough neurological exam? Also, Maine Coons, as a breed, can have cardiac problems. It may be worth getting that checked out, as well.
 
Well, we are not having an awesome BG day...

Hi sugars were high again at 4pm and then at 6 and then at 8pm. We gave 2 units tonight and gave him a big meal of Friscas Mariners Catch (which he loved). We'll see how this goes at 10pm.

I am not sure what a full neuro exam entails...they looked at his eyes, responsiveness, ears, paws and watched him walk and turn for a bit. Last monday, he had a bit of a murmur and his HR raised quickly while the vet checked him out. This was not his normal vet, and he "flipped" out shortly there after when they tried to pin him down for an xray. It was at that point that they got a urine sample, cuz he peed while freaking out. When we saw our regular vet on Friday, his heart seemed fine to her.

We wish his levels would come down. Hopefully 2 units should do it.

Tanya
 
heads up!

when a +2 is significantly less than the preshot, that means that you might see some lower than usual numbers coming.

Elie's preshot tonight was 351. the +2 was 257 - that's 100ish less. that means you need to keep an eye out tonight. i'd test again in an hour and see where he is. this would be a good time to give some regular food to him and see if you can slow him down a little.
 
Tanya you shouldn't change the dose like that based on a PS number. The dosing for lantus is based on nadir and it requires regular dosing (time and amount) over a number of days before you see the full effects. Please please don't do that again.

With the food thing - I think you will find that Elie and your hip pocket are both better off on the supermarket brands mentioned. I'm not liking the rice flour in the vet product. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else so in case no one has told you don't feed after +10 this is to make sure your PS is not influenced by food. Other than that each to their own - Vyktor free feeds.
 
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