3/03 KiKi ------still not out of the woods yet

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Donna & KiKi

Donna & KiKi

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Morning LL
KiKi still not himself (full-powered) yet. He is more responsive than he was yesterday tho. His meow has some strength behind it anyhow Negative for ketones (just now). I certainly hope today is a better day for him. He was a bit lethargic yesterday -- it was just scary.

Yesterday's Condo
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Hi Donna,

This is the first time I have stopped by your condo. I don't know what your plan is about dosing, and I don't have a lot of experience giving dosing advice for other cats, but in my opinion you might want to hang on to this dose for another cycle or two to see what happens. It looks like you are getting a lot of action on this dose, but then KiKi is spiking up after the lower number. I don't know if you understand the Liver Training School. Anyway, don't hold the dose solely based on my recommendation, hopefully Jill or one of the other more experienced dosers will come along and help you with that. If you are ever in need of dose advice just put that in your subject line to draw attention to your condo.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

you might want to hang on to this dose for another cycle or two to see what happens
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seems to be the general consensus -- we'll stay put for now
I don't know if you understand the Liver Training School
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I must not -- I'll read over it again
If you are ever in need of dose advice just put that in your subject line to draw attention to your condo.
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good to know -- I'll keep that in mind. thanks!
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Donna,

I went back a read your last post last night and you mentioned something about gravy on the food. Are you feeding Low Carb food from the approved list? You can find the list in my signature line.

If you are feeding food with gravy you are very likely feeding a medium or high carb food and that could be part of why KiKi is going up so high.

Please check out the list and make sure the food you are giving is under 10% carb. I fed Sami mostly under 5% carb and she is off insulin and diet controlled. Before coming to this board I was feeding dry high carb food and after finding out about the Low carb I switched all my cats over. It is amazing how much they can spike up with just a few pellets of dry food. You can check out Sami's SS and you will see a few blues amongst a sea of green and that is when I gave her a few pellets of dry food. You can read the comments to understand why.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Are you feeding Low Carb food from the approved list?
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well I thought I was :shock: (it's mostly what I fed when he was OTJ last time)
lg_120.jpg

I guess it's really just sauce, but he LOVES it -- its on the list as 9%
I know its at the top of the scale, but I know he will eat it everytime.....others he will turn his nose up and walk away.....then it eventually ends up in the garbage
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Yes, it is within the range, but it might not hurt to pick up a few cans of 3% and 4% carbs to see if that effects KiKi's numbers. If he won't eat it then throw that idea out the window, but it is worth a shot.

I was feeding my Kitties Friskies and Fancy Feast on alternating days. The Friskies and the carb content was higher than the Fancy Feast flavors. Friskies were running 5-9% carbs and the Fancy Feast 0-4% carbs.

My cats love the Fancy Feast Chopped Grill Feast. They also like one of the Fish Flavors with 0% carbs, but I try not to give them that one very often. I have heard that if they get hooked they might not eat anything else.

I tried lots of different things, from keeping track of what food was given and the carb content to switching to mini meals. In the end all my efforts paid off and now Sami is diet controlled. I think the key to getting your kitty regulated or to go OTJ is to find what works for your cat. As we know every cat is different and there are so many variables that could make the situation a little different.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Friskies were running 5-9% carbs and the Fancy Feast 0-4% carbs
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Where do you find the carb content of the Fancy Feast? I only have the list that says <10% .........AHHHHHH! The old List! I never even looked at that one....just assumed everything was transferred ... that's what happens when you ASSUME ohmygod_smile
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475

Yeah, I had a hard time finding it too. At first I was only looking at the one list now I have the both printed out and take them with me to the store. Once I was at the store reviewing all the sheets and another customer thought I was doing inventory and wanted to ask me a question. When she found out I was just another shopper she probably thought I was a total lunatic.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi +10 475, AMPS 450

:lol: That's too funny
The woman that restocks the pet food (WalMart 3rd shift) is pretty used to seeing me come in to buy cat food. Some nights I almost wish she were on break :oops:
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472

Now he is getting groggy again.....went over to his water bowl and just laid next to it. Like he was just to exhausted to drink. Then when he got up, he just stood over the top of the bowl.....as if in a daze. I really do not like him acting this way. I have to leave at +1.5, but should return by +3 I think I will just leave him alone in my office while I am away
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472

It can get scary when you see your little baby doing these sorts of things. Sami did the same thing. It is very hard to see that and aggravating that what you are doing doesn't seem to be working quick enough. But I can tell you that what you are on the right path and eventually you will get to where you need to be.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472

I see that you just posted another reading of over 600. Have you had KiKi tested for an infection? When a cat has an infection they can become insulin resistant. I am not saying that this is the problem just yet another thing to check. Sami was actually on antibiotic twice. The first time for 2 weeks, she was on insulin (vetsilin) and within 3 weeks she was off the insulin. Then 4 weeks later she was back on insulin, this time Lantus. And we put her back on antibiotic for another 4 weeks.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI

Just the tests we had done on 2/19 and they all came back negative for any type infection. CBC/t4/Electrolyte Analysis /rinalysis/urine culture/Cystocentesis
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 ---->HELP?

He always seems so groggy from about +2 to +10 .... do you think there might be something wrong with the insulin? I almost hate to give him another shot.....I compared the pen to a new pen and it doesn't LOOK any different. I even got out my magnifying lens and looked at it under the light. Also I just realized the ReliOn only reads up to 500 instead of 600 like the Contour I used previously. So I guess that makes me feel SOMEwhat better.
I guess I am more concerned about the WCR......he just not himself. Anyone else have any ideas or similar experiences. He's just now starting to move around again and let out a hardy MEOW . . . . I just don't know...
Also, he is really hungry again.....can I go ahead and feed now and do the shot @ +12? (It's +10.5 now) Maybe just skip tonites shot altogether and see how he is tonite? Then I can call vet tomorrow.....what do you all think?

**update- I caved in -- I gave him 1 tsp of FF LC -- he woof it down. He laying down again for the moment......
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

I'm not qualified to give dosing advice, just wanted to say hi and send good thoughts for KiKi.

We feed FF LC Tender Beef Feast, and we sprinkle Liv-A-Little chicken treats on top. He LOVES the "chicken dust," and he'll eat almost anything that has it on top! There are other brands of freeze-dried chicken treats that can be incentives to eat some of the lower carb stuff.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Hi Donna
I see that you are on a low dose of insulin and your BG numbers are very high. I did not see any mention on your ss that you have tested for Ketones.
Are you familiar with this? They are test strips form the pharmacy and if there are ketones present in Kiki's urine then he might need to get and could be a reason why he is not acting normal, to you.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Yes I did test first thing this AM and it was Negative Ketones
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

I wouldn't skip the shot. If KiKi does happen to have something going on (infection, etc.) then skipping insulin can easily cause ketones and make the situation a whole lot worse. I do think you should call the vet tomorrow, if KiKi still isn't acting right.

Let's see what the +12 is. It looks like rebound might already be breaking and KiKi might be heading back to better numbers tonight on his own (I hope so!). You'll want to shoot some insulin, full dose is best as long as he is eating. Post the number, though, and we can give more input.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Crap, it's +12.25 now and he's eatten already...now what? 406 right now
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

can you test and shoot now? It's only 15 minutes late, no harm done.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Shot 1.00 -- I'll check again in 1 hour and post.
:o I'm just not liking these Lantus Hills -- I'm gettin kinda skeered :shock:
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Donna, based on KiKi's numbers and the fact that he has been on the same dose for 9 cycle I think it might be okay to increase to a solid 1.0 unit. Understand, I am new to giving dosing advice for kitties other than Sami so please make sure you get the same feed back from some of the more experienced dosers too. The only thing that worries me, and it doesn't really worry my that much, is that during this time KiKi did drop down into the 150 range at nadir in the last few days. This is still well above the too low threshold so I don't think he would drop too low on 1.0 units, but again it would probably be a good idea to get a second and maybe a third opinion before changing the dose.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

Hey Donna. I realize you are still new to the Board. Libby, along with Jill, is one of the most experienced Lantus users here. She is very skilled at interpreting spreadsheets. It looks like Kiki is bouncing hard from the blue numbers the other day. Generally, when you have numbers in the blues and greens, even if it's for a brief time, you hold the current dose for 10 cycles (5 days). In part, you need to make sure that Kiki has cleared the rebound before increasing a dose so you can evaluate whether an increase is really needed. I know you're worried about Kiki. It may be that the bouncing into high numbers is making Kiki feel crummy. As Libby suggested, keep an eye on your kitty and listen to your gut. If you are still worried tomorrow, it won't hurt to have your vet take a look at Kiki.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi AMPS 450,+1 472,+4 HI,+7.5 443,+10 415 -- HELP?

nice shooting!

Personally, I would wait another cycle or two before increasing. Following the General Dosing Guidelines we use in this forum, when a dose shows blue we usually hold it for 10 cycles. KiKi has seen blue and green on this dose, so it's worth it to slow down just a little to be sure we don't go past the right dose. The last couple of cycles have been ugly, but they are just a bounce off of yesterday's big drop and the blue. These bounces can last up to 72 hours, though it does look like KiKi cleared the last one in 3 cycles. Since ketones are negative, we don't have to rush to increase right now.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Ok- Im freaking out here.....KiKi is so lethargic that I sometimes cannot even get him waken up.
About +1 I looked over at him sleeping and I petted him......nothing.......I tried to wake him . . . . nothing still........finally I went to pick him up and he was all limp. Then he finally started to come around. Right away I grabbed the meter, but it was 437. If a cat were to have come out of a hypoglycemic episode could their bodies spike their glucose THAT fast? Now I wish I hadn't given him the shot......
I called the "vet-on-call" and he was wondering if possibly he was getting too much insulin.....seeing the lowest numbers towards the center of my spreadsheet when I was doing .75
Anyhow, didnt get much else for answers from him (and out another $100), but now I feel as if I need to stay awake and make sure KiKi's ok. I am afraid to go to sleep. And I hate that this isn't in real-time :cry:
He keeps wanting to go asleep.....and then he's unresponsive.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

donna, that's pretty scary! your ss says kiki has been negative for ketones. that's good.
i'm not a vet and i have NO idea if there's something wrong, but maybe you should bring him to an ER? there could be something going on that is unrelated to diabetes...
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

take a deep breath!

I don't think it's hypo, I doubt the number could have dropped and then risen that fast. It does seem like there is something going on with KiKi, and if he were my cat I would probably go to ER. Make sure they check other things besides diabetes, it doesn't seem like this is blood sugar related to me (of course I am not a doctor and I have never seen KiKi, so someone who is there with you can tell more than I can).
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

no, this does not look like a hypo, but i would take kiki in to be examined. this may not have anything to do with diabetes.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Donna & KiKi said:
Ok- Im freaking out here.....KiKi is so lethargic that I sometimes cannot even get him waken up.
About +1 I looked over at him sleeping and I petted him......nothing.......I tried to wake him . . . . nothing still........finally I went to pick him up and he was all limp. Then he finally started to come around. Right away I grabbed the meter, but it was 437. If a cat were to have come out of a hypoglycemic episode could their bodies spike their glucose THAT fast? Now I wish I hadn't given him the shot.......
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he would not drop from 406 into hypo territory and then back up to 437 in an hour. giving the shot was the right thing to do.
It sounds like your kitty is possibly having other complications.
can you check again for ketones?
do you have an ER vet you can take him to get checked out tonight? or first thing in the am if no vet available tonight.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

I already took him to the vet that was on emergency call --I just got back from there. He just checked him over -- took his temperature -- stuff like that. Of course, KiKi was all stressed out and wide awake then. Now we are back home....and it seems like as long as I can keep him eatting something he's alert for like the next 15 minutes. Then he starts the whole process over.
I just tested for Ketones - Negative
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

donna, i'd call him back and tell him what you just told us, "Now we are back home....and it seems like as long as I can keep him eatting something he's alert for like the next 15 minutes. Then he starts the whole process over.
I just tested for Ketones - Negative"

something's not right...
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

he has done this several times (being hard to wake up?) And he has been lethargic for a couple of days, right? I don't know, I would be worried too. I'm glad the ketones are negative. It doesn't seem diabetes related but it does seem like something that needs attention. Was this an ER vet or a regular vet on call? Sometimes the ones at the ER facilities have more experience with sudden illness than the regular vets do (because that's what they do every day, the stuff that comes on suddenly and dramatically).
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Hope Kiki Is ok--Sending Healing vines to Kiki tonite..Hope she comes back to herself soon!
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, I told him all that while we were there. It was the vet on call.....we dont have an emergency vet near here. He's been groggy the past coupla days -- no where's near this bad tho. And always when the insulin getting around +11 or +12 he'd get more energy and be more vocal then I'd give next shot and it seem like we start the whole process over once again.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

donna, where are you located (nearest big city & state)? maybe i can find an ER that's not too far from you for you to call for an opinion.

question --- you are using U-100 syringes with lantus, right? not the U-40 syringes you used with vetsulin.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

just to rule out blood sugar, can you test yourself with the meter to be sure it's working properly?
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Ok can you pull up the skin on Kiki's neck and see if she is dehydrated? You can tell because the skin will slide back slowly if she is dehydrated. It was almost snap back if she is not. And Libby's suggestion is a good one.. test yourself to see if you get a similar reading.
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

You or the cat are those numbers? How many + hours are we from that 400 number?
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

offers emergency services:
Pioneer Animal Hospital
508 6th St SW, Mason City, IA 50401 (641) 424-0810

this one is in rochester,MN, but you could call them to see if they think kiki should be brought back to your vet:
AEVS - Affliated Emergency Veterinary Services
507-424-3976
121 23rd Ave SW
Rochester, MN 55902
Open Monday through Thursday, 6:00pm - 8:00am Friday 5:00pm through Monday, 8:00am
(PLEASE NOTE THIS OPENS AT 5 ON FRIDAYS)
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Here is Iowa State's ER vet number. Maybe they could help by phone too.

Emergency Contact Information

Phone: (515) 294-4900

Fax: (515) 294-7520
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Here is a link to Pet Place -- reliable resource for feline health information -- on lethargy. http://www.petplace.com/cats/lethargy-i ... page1.aspx

as you can see the list of possibilities is long......
but the reason I post is it lists the basic diagnostic tests for your vet to do

I know you had your vet look him over..... wondering what he did of these items.
If you can get him or one of the ER places listed to do what might of been missed in a basic work up for lethargy.

also wondering...... when KiKi went back on the juice in february.... was there something that triggered it?
Did the vet do a work up then? ( full chem panel, cbc, u/a, cystocentesis for C&S , etc... )

any change in his behavior?
((( donna )))
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

donna, it's been awhile since you've posted and i noticed you're no longer online.
hope you were able to get in touch with someone tonight to get answers.
will look for your update tomorrow...

(((hugs)))
 
Re: 3/03 KiKi ------possible hypo??? help!!!!!!!!

Donna sending many good thoughts and wishes, please give us an update when you can ok?
 
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