271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do -new questions

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RobbiesMom

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With his shot time about an hour and a half away at 7:30am EST - I just managed to wake up to test Robbie and he's 271 and FAMISHED even though he got a 1/2 can watered up via the auto feeder at 3:30am He's eating breakfast now at 6am and tested 271 (I logged it in on the SS as +10 cause it's what fit - his morning shot as been at about 7:15/7:30 depending and I've shot as early as 6am to catch him on the rise). The BIG question is what to shoot? When he was 270 at PMPS and I shot 3 it wasn't quite right - any thoughts? I know it will be my decision and I have to rule in the fact that I don't think my husband will be home all day thought he'll be in and out and can test and watch for a hypo but that's not really the best scenerio. I'm leaning towards 3.5 - anyone want to give some input? Thanks as always.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

I agree with the dose, but is that going to present a timing issue for tonite?
carl
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

I can shoot him at 7am Carl and that won't present a timing issue - and hopefully the dose will hold thru - It's a bit after 7am now - I'm going to test him again (although he'll have some food interaction now an hour after eating I would imagine) - So if I do 3.5 at 7am than I'll probably do 4.5 at 7pm - depending on his numbers pre=shot and pre-dinner.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

I'm with Carl do you want to be on this time tonight?

One other thing do you need to shot at +10.5? A lot could change in 1.5 hours. Just a thought.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Sounds like a good plan to me!
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

So at 7:04 am an hour after the 271 test and breakfast he's 368 (oh, what time and some food will do). I did a dose of 3.5 - gotta hope that ends up making sense - he woofed down the can of FF and is begging me for more - I gave him a couple of those pure bites treats after he let me test and shoot

Oh, and just to not be confusing (which is probably due to the lack of sleep) I didn't want to shoot at 10.5, I'm really NOT a morning person so forgive me- his shot last night was at 7:15pm (the SS doesn't allow for these slight changes so I just plug in at the time that it's closest and keep notes) so the test this morning at 6am was really close to PMPS +11 - I was planning on shooting at the 7/7:30 am time frame which is very close to his regular AMPS (I try to keep at 7am/7pm but have shot early to catch him and have been late on a couple of occasions)
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Well, we aren't low enough but surfing some nice yellows considering where we've been
AMPS +3 281
he had some food around here - just a small snack
AMPS +5 282
AMPS +7 266
AMPS +8 267
Probably should have bitten the bullet and gone with 4.00 this morning but better safe than sorry.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

RobbiesMom said:
I can shoot him at 7am Carl and that won't present a timing issue - and hopefully the dose will hold thru - It's a bit after 7am now - I'm going to test him again (although he'll have some food interaction now an hour after eating I would imagine) - So if I do 3.5 at 7am than I'll probably do 4.5 at 7pm - depending on his numbers pre=shot and pre-dinner.

OK, Carl's having a data/BG/food/timing crisis moment so bear with me...

We always tell people "don't feed in the 2 hours leading up to a shot", right? Because we don't want them shooting into a number that is "food boosted". So, in this case, Ellen didn't do that. She tested on an empty tank, let him eat, but then directed the dose at the pre-feeding PS number Robbie gave her. Exactly what we would advise she do. So, she shoots about 20% less insulin than she would have if she had given the normal 4.5 dose because that makes sense with a BG of 271.

But what do we get? A small drop, and then just flatness. Why didn't this "work"? Is it because the food had a one hour/ 90 minute head start, and by the time the insulin hit it was too late? Help me out with the logic on this, folks. If she had shot the 3.5 at +10.5 when she tested, would the cycle have been better? Is there something faulty with the "don't shoot a food boosted BG" logic? Is it just a matter of timing, and if the timing is off, the cycle is going to be "off"?

Carl
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Carl & Bob in SC said:
But what do we get? A small drop, and then just flatness. Why didn't this "work"? Is it because the food had a one hour/ 90 minute head start, and by the time the insulin hit it was too late? Help me out with the logic on this, folks. If she had shot the 3.5 at +10.5 when she tested, would the cycle have been better? Is there something faulty with the "don't shoot a food boosted BG" logic? Is it just a matter of timing, and if the timing is off, the cycle is going to be "off"? Carl

My guess is that the food/time did raise the number by +12. If she had tested at +12, she might have gotten a higher number which might have benefited from more insulin? Or he might be a kitty for whom food raises the number later rather than sooner? I think it is hard to test early and then try to guess what might be happening in the interim before the shot. (My 2 cents, which are not worth that.....)
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Thinking out loud. Maybe this is the old monkey thinking because that is the way it is always done but most here test feed and shoot within 15 minutes to 30 minutes. That would give the food and the insulin the same starting point. We say onset is about 2 hours but maybe that is when the food spike is coming down and we start to see some action, there are some kitties that get that fast steep drop within that first few hours so that throws onset out the window to some degree.

I think it is a timing thing. Another intricate dance step.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Yes, I think when you're shooting early a lot of times we're not factoring in that if we had waited til shot time the number would have been higher, normally a +10.5 and +12 will give very different readings. So then you feed and get a food spike and direct your shot off the prefood number, but now the food has a head start and numbers are climbing on their own as well as you approach the +12. I'm kinda in favor of shooting at the food influenced number after seeing this happen (shooting a reduced dose) and the insulin not being enough.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

I hate the thought of shooting into a food inflated number, I've seen it go bad.

I wasn't taking into account the rise from +10.5 to +12 on his own either. Some kitties rocket up during that time like Jax, so you don't actually know what number you would have gotten at +12.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

I'm totally screwed. I can't get his food and shot timing down - that's what I think - I'm trying to adjust when he eats because I can't feed him at 7pm at night I just can't he'll go ballastic. He gets breakfast at 7 and dinner at 5 the cat is like a freaking time clock with that - he gets a "snack" at 11pm and a "snack" at 5am (usually half of what I would call his breakfast) and he gets some sort of snack or treat around 8pm. That was all set in stone PRE diabetes and was really made firm during his OTJ period when he wanted more small meals throughout the day. So now I'm just all messed up - I fed him early cause he's hungry all the time now - I guess I should have just gone back to bed and ignored him and shot and fed at 7am. Of course we have a second chance here folks cause YES< you guessed it - his daddy fed him at 4:30 PM and the PMPS shot is due at 7pm - it's 6pm now - haven't tested him since PRE dinner at 4pm when he was 284.
THOUGHTS???

BTW I did test this morning at +12 and he was 368 - his pre-food number was 271 and actually he'd had about 1/3 of a can at +8 (3:30/4am) so the 271 was effected by food from 2.5 hours previously as well. I've been setting the self feeder to feed him at 3:30 so he'll let me sleep past 5:30/6 it's only sort of working. If I have to feed him before testing and shooting how long should I wait to test and shoot - 2 hours? 3 hours? I thought the don't feed 2 hours before test and shot would mean that I was OK feeding him something at 3:30am and testing and shooting at 7am - this morning got wacky but now I'm concerned about screwing up tonight on him too.
 
Re: 271 @ PMPS+10.5 what do I do

Okay, people make fun of me for this advice, but BREATHE, Ellen, BREATHE. This is all fixable, on a schedule that we can make work for you and Robbie.

Is there a way you can give small frequent meals during the day - even more often than he is snacking now - so he isn't dying to eat before preshot time? Many of us use automatic feeders (I love my PetSafe 5) I also freeze the food in a silicone cupcake pan - one can of FF fits perfectly - then store it in the freezer. I put that in the feeder for overnight, but some people put it out to thaw so that the cat can snack. (My Oliver loved that! He dragged the frozen puck all over my living room, munching as it thawed on my white carpet. :lol: )

Is he sure eating enough? Some unregulated cats think they are starving. How much do you feed? What are the snacks? (I am sure you have already told us this - sorry, I have not been around.....) Sometimes adding water to the wet food makes it soupy and seem more filling - sometimes that helps hungry kitties.

Everyone will have an idea that worked for them re feeding. Yes, he is used to a routine, but you should be able to change it a little at a time.

Wait until 6:50 or so, get a preshot number and come on for advice, but you do a good job of figuring the dose and this dose should be a "true number".
 
Oh, thank you Sue I'm trying - I just feel like I'm so "reactive" I'm not doing my best for him and it's really unsettling. Let me see -

Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Is there a way you can give small frequent meals during the day - even more often than he is snacking now - so he isn't dying to eat before preshot time? Many of us use automatic feeders (I love my PetSafe 5) I also freeze the food in a silicone cupcake pan - one can of FF fits perfectly - then store it in the freezer. I put that in the feeder for overnight, but some people put it out to thaw so that the cat can snack. (My Oliver loved that! He dragged the frozen puck all over my living room, munching as it thawed on my white carpet. )

Is he sure eating enough? Some unregulated cats think they are starving. How much do you feed? What are the snacks? (I am sure you have already told us this - sorry, I have not been around.....) Sometimes adding water to the wet food makes it soupy and seem more filling - sometimes that helps hungry kitties.

We have a feeder - I'm not crazy about it (I can't set it my husband has to and as a liberated, mechanically inclined woman that just pisses me off) but it works. So we could set it to feed him during the day - our cat Roxie might get some of the food but Robbie is pretty territorial about food so maybe not. He HATES cold food - he won't even eat it if it's been in the fridge - just sits and cries at it - I'm sure if he was hungry enough he would but I don't think the freezing thing is something that would work real well. I think he's eating enough he's going thru (and I need to be more accurate about this) but he's getting one can early am, half a can late am, than a full can at dinner time and another half a can somehow during the evening - most of it is watered down except the morning meal which gets a teaspoon of metimucil in it (we are probably changing to miralax at advice from here). "Snacks" were about a 1/4 of a can of FF watered down a lot - now we have those freeze dried kitty snacks and he LOVES them (just arrived yesterday) so those are now his post test/shot "treat" just a couple of them where before he'd get a spoonful of the watered down FF (which my husband and I call "slurry"). So depending on how his numbers have been running and how he's acting (some nights he's been screaming for food the entire time) he's getting 3/4 cans of Fancy Feast per day - they are a rotating mixture of the cod/shrimp mix and the other one is - I can never remember chopped grill? It's one of the lowest carb/cal ones they make that isn't fish. Going to test in half an hour or so and will be looking for some advice.
 
Okay, so you're trying my ideas already. Seems like enough food. How much does he weigh? What is his ideal weight? Carl is very good at figuring out if they are getting enough calories.

Hopefully some others will come on with other food/schedule ideas for you.

I do have to say we had to do "tough love" with Oliver. He was a rescue kitty who had lost over 50% of his body weight when found. It was as though he always wanted to eat because he was afraid of not having food again. He was okay with dry food on demand. Very okay - he was overweight when diagnosed with diabetes. Even with the feeder and the watered down and small frequent meals and being regulated, he always thought he was hungry. Once I was sure he was getting enough and was at a normal weight, we did learn to ignore him or focus his attention on something else. One of our most successful things was a toy that he had to bat around to dispense food. Freeze dried treats in there would keep him busy and help keep his mind off his next meal. I can't remember the name but can probably google it.
 
Okay, people make fun of me for this advice, but BREATHE, Ellen, BREATHE.
God it's good to have you back, Sue!!! I will however add to that what I PM'd you earlier..

"Breathe.....and put down the pokers for a couple of hours"

OK, Ellen.... you aren't totally screwed. Nobody is ever to that point here. Not if we can help it anyway.
So now I'm just all messed up - I fed him early cause he's hungry all the time now - I guess I should have just gone back to bed and ignored him and shot and fed at 7pm.
This morning, I thought you were asking that since you were awake, and since you got the 271, even though it was only +10.5, would it be okay to shoot? So that's what I posted a reply to. But then even after you explained that you didn't plan on shooting till 7am, I was still good with it, because I figured "she's still shooting the 271, not whatever number she sees at 7am, so the dose makes sense on that yellow number". That's why I posted what I did a couple hours ago. I sounded like "a plan that made logical sense", so I didn't understand why the numbers went the way they did. Still scratching my head....

As far as Robbie's behavior (I'm FREAKING STARVING ALL THE TIME HERE MOM!!!!!), I think it is part diabetes (they are hungier than normal, and even more so when their numbers go low), and part attitude. He's learned that screaming means food, and hasn't given you much of a choice unless you want the whole house awake when Robbie doesn't get his way. The amount you are feeding sounds like "enough", even for a diabetic. 3 to 4 cans of FF is 300 calories, at least. How much does he weigh again? It's a shame we can't give them stuff that is empty calories that makes you think your belly is full (like popcorn or watermelon) ate pacifies that hunger pain for a while.

Of course we have a second chance here folks cause YES< you guessed it - his daddy fed him at 4:30 PM and the PMPS shot is due at 7pm
Most of the food should be cleared, but some of the number will be food boost.

Does anyone/everyone think she should shoot the number she gets and try to ignore the food?
I thought the don't feed 2 hours before test and shot would mean that I was OK feeding him something at 3:30am and testing and shooting at 7am
I thought the same exact thing.

Carl
 
He's at 343 basically @ PMPS (few minutes to go) - IF the food has cleared and that's where he'd be if I was feeding him dinner now more or less (and that sort of seems to make sense to me at least) I want to go with the 4.5 - see if we can get into the blues again and find out if 4.5 is really a dose that works for him (my gut is telling me he's a 4.5/5 dose kitty right now)
Thoughts ?? and than I'll respond to the thoughtful insights of the last two posts.
 
On the dose, I agree. I think it is likely that most of the BG boost from eating has made it through his system. What I would do though, is if you see a fairly quick drop at +2 or +3, then I would "force" him :lol: to eat another half can after the drop, so that he doesn't drop fast towards +6. In "Lantus TR", they call that feeding the curve, if I remember right. You're just trying to buffer the bottom with a push upward so that he doesn't go low enough to cause a wonky bounce later in the cycle. It's sort of what I did by routine with Bob as insurance that he wouldn't drop too low when I was at work or sleeping, cuz lord knows I didn't test him often enough mid-cycle when I was doing the dance.

Carl
 
Carl & Bob in SC said:
As far as Robbie's behavior (I'm FREAKING STARVING ALL THE TIME HERE MOM!!!!!), I think it is part diabetes (they are hungier than normal, and even more so when their numbers go low), and part attitude. He's learned that screaming means food, and hasn't given you much of a choice unless you want the whole house awake when Robbie doesn't get his way. The amount you are feeding sounds like "enough", even for a diabetic. 3 to 4 cans of FF is 300 calories, at least. How much does he weigh again? It's a shame we can't give them stuff that is empty calories that makes you think your belly is full (like popcorn or watermelon) ate pacifies that hunger pain for a while.

Well, today his Dad was testing him and got a little pokey happy - I asked for every 2/3 hours but I got what I got. :YMSIGH:

When his numbers have been good like most of last night and earlier the other day when we had the blues he's not food nuts at all - I mean he's always been a cat who if he hears the drawer that holds the food open he'll pop his head into the kitchen or if he smells chicken or ham or shrimp. But he is spoiled beyond where he should be. BTW he weighs 19.5 lbs and it's a good weight for him - he was down to 17 when first diagnosed (2 years ago) and looked anorexic.

So I'll test him in a couple of hours and if he's dropped too low (like how much?) I'll see if I can force some food in him :lol:
 
OK. he's a large boy. Very basic formula - 20 or more calories per pound, per day, to maintain "ideal" body weight. More if he tends to be more active, and also more if he's diabetic. The range I have seen most says 20-25 cal. So, by that, Robbie should eat 380-400 calories per day to maintain his weight. If you are seeing the weight remain about the same, that would seem to indicate he's towards the low end of that scale. If he eats 4 cans of FF a day, that is still under 400 calories because most of the classics are less than 100 per can. Now, the charts are "old" so the calorie data might be obsolete, especially if Purina has put some new ingredients in that are calorie heavy.
It could well be that more of his "feed me" attitude is authentic than maybe we think? But like I said, if he's maintaining 19 lbs on what you are feeding him, then what you are feeding is probably enough. You might try giving in a little and making sure he gets a full 4 cans a day, while watching to make sure he doesn't pack on any weight. If he starts to gain, and you don't want him to, then you can force him to work it off through exercise.

Carl
 
Carl & Bob in SC said:
then you can force him to work it off through exercise.

Carl - when did you become a comic? :lol: :lol: If you haven''t figured it out by now this cat has me wrapped around his big, fat paw. I can't seem to force him to do anything - plus with him being a tad gimpy form the arthritis about the most exercise I can force him to get is smacking his front paws in the air to get the feather toy - or playing with the dog - he does roll around with her quite a bit.
My husband tells me I'm nuts and that Robbie gets 4 cans a day for sure - he may be right I need to focus on that a bit more - sometimes when I'm at work I'll tell him "ok give him a couple of spoonfuls" and I'm not really "charting" what he's eating. But he's not getting more than 4 cans. I have no way to weigh him - he won't be going to the vet for another week or so (although I am talking to the vet about him tomorrow). He's been right around 19.5/20 lbs for a long time now - he was up to 24 at one point several years ago - he was FAT - but we got him to lose 2 lbs and at 22 lbs he was still a BIG boy - than he got so thin before we realized he was diabetic and he lost a lot of weight very fast- went down to 17 - it wasn't pretty.
 
he lost a lot of weight very fast- went down to 17 - it wasn't pretty

I hear that. Bob was 22 once upon a time. We tried to make him lose weight and got him down to 18. Stayed that way for a while, then he got the "sugars" and dropped in a couple of months down to 12. Not pretty at all. He's at 14 now, but he still looks "healthy" or "big boned" :-D But the vet says 14 is okay, that was our goal weight when he started treatment, and he's maintained it within +/- 2 or 3 ounces since he went OTJ.
If I want to force him to exercise (tends to be quite the sloth), I just rub catnip on his back and let Mullet chase him around for a while!

Carl
 
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