? 22April2020/Maxi/Increase Lantus Today?

Hi Karen

Sorry we didn’t get to you before you shot. Wendy and I are west coast so we are not up early.

Here is my concern: you shot R last night and no tests at all. Is it possible he went into more blue or green? Yes. Testing is your friend and it gives you the data to make sure that when you raise the dose, you know how low the previous dose took him. Last night was also the sixth cycle after the bounce started so the perfect time for him to clear the bounce.

When we use R, we sometimes develop a comfort level on how low it might take them and we slack off the testing. Try not to do that. IMHO and what has been taught here for longer than I’ve been here is a +2 test with Lantus is a great help in determining how active the cycle might be. Throw R into the mix, and it’s a must. If you test at +2 and the number, with or without R, is similar to or lower than the PS, be prepared for an active cycle like you saw on 4/18 pm cycle.

Having said all that which is meant as a lesson :) and not a criticism at all (FD is a daily learning process), I would raise the dose to 8.75u provided you can monitor with at least a +2 and/or before bed test in the evening. Yes, he possibly saw some green last night but if he did, it was likely the R.

One last comment/lesson. You are dealing with a good-sized dose which means a good-sized depot. How does it apply to testing? It just means that with a large depot, it can be harder to control the numbers if they head south even with no R in the mix. So testing early and more often when you can tell numbers will drop (there are clues), can help you stay ahead of the depot.
 
What Marje said. ;) Always get a second test each cycle. My only comment is that the +2 doesn't always work with all cats, just most on Lantus. Neko could have a higher +2 and still have an active cycle, because she had a late onset on Lantus, then Levemir, and also with R. With all cats, you need to Know Thy Cat. With acrocats, and higher doses, it's that doubled. Maxi looks more like an average +2 onset kind of guy so the +2 should work for him.

Just a comment on the spreadsheet, when you manually have to colour the cells, it helps if you use the colour scheme we are used to. We look for patterns, and those colours are part of those pattern. April 19 PM+6 should be pink instead of yellow.

One other request, could you put some sort of running tally in the Remarks about cabergoline. I see when you started it but I have to go back and count to see how many days since you started. Something like a comment, week 2 cabergoline, week 3, etc. Have you seen any changes in Maxi that you think might be due to the cabergoline? At some point you may want to think about increasing it's dose if no changes. Maxi is on the low end of the dose range, most cats got double what he is on.
 
Thank you, Marje.

Sorry we didn’t get to you before you shot. Wendy and I are west coast so we are not up early.

Before Maxi's morning shot? It wouldn't have changed anything, would it have?

Here is my concern: you shot R last night and no tests at all. Is it possible he went into more blue or green? Yes. Testing is your friend and it gives you the data to make sure that when you raise the dose, you know how low the previous dose took him. Last night was also the sixth cycle after the bounce started so the perfect time for him to clear the bounce.

Last night's dose was not the previous dose to an increase.
Last night was the only cycle when I didn't test during the cycle, and I didn't because I was wiped out by a rip-roaring migraine. I had my alarm set for 3:30am (his +6), as always, but evidently the dopey medicine I had taken made me turn off the alarm and roll over in a stupor. I'll try not to let that happen again.

One last comment/lesson. You are dealing with a good-sized dose which means a good-sized depot. How does it apply to testing? It just means that with a large depot, it can be harder to control the numbers if they head south even with no R in the mix. So testing early and more often when you can tell numbers will drop (there are clues), can help you stay ahead of the depot.

Other than the last couple of days, do you think I'm not testing often enough?

When we use R, we sometimes develop a comfort level on how low it might take them and we slack off the testing. Try not to do that. IMHO and what has been taught here for longer than I’ve been here is a +2 test with Lantus is a great help in determining how active the cycle might be. Throw R into the mix, and it’s a must. If you test at +2 and the number, with or without R, is similar to or lower than the PS, be prepared for an active cycle like you saw on 4/18 pm cycle.

Yes, the last couple of days I have slacked off the testing. I do check on Maxi very often, though. He's usually next to me. Being sick with the migraine (not only headache but also vomiting) has made it harder to test. I will always do a +2 test from now on.

Having said all that which is meant as a lesson :) and not a criticism at all (FD is a daily learning process), I would raise the dose to 8.75u provided you can monitor with at least a +2 and/or before bed test in the evening. Yes, he possibly saw some green last night but if he did, it was likely the R.

I will increase Lantus to 8.75 tonight and test at +2 (which is 11:30 pm).

Thanks again.
 
Thank you, Wendy.

What Marje said. ;) Always get a second test each cycle. My only comment is that the +2 doesn't always work with all cats, just most on Lantus. Neko could have a higher +2 and still have an active cycle, because she had a late onset on Lantus, then Levemir, and also with R. With all cats, you need to Know Thy Cat. With acrocats, and higher doses, it's that doubled. Maxi looks more like an average +2 onset kind of guy so the +2 should work for him.

I will always get a +2 from now on.

Just a comment on the spreadsheet, when you manually have to colour the cells, it helps if you use the colour scheme we are used to. We look for patterns, and those colours are part of those pattern. April 19 PM+6 should be pink instead of yellow.

Sorry, that was a mistake. I corrected it.

One other request, could you put some sort of running tally in the Remarks about cabergoline. I see when you started it but I have to go back and count to see how many days since you started. Something like a comment, week 2 cabergoline, week 3, etc. Have you seen any changes in Maxi that you think might be due to the cabergoline? At some point you may want to think about increasing it's dose if no changes. Maxi is on the low end of the dose range, most cats got double what he is on.

I added that in the remarks. At the end of this week, he will have been taking cabergoline for a month. I have not seen any changes that I think might be due to the cabergoline. Please advise on when to increase the dose and by how much.

Thanks again.
 
Tagging @Olive & Paula who has experience with cabergoline and increasing the dose. Paula, do you think a month is enough time for a trial with no results and the dose should be increased?
 
Karen

Did you know that if you highlight a section that you want to respond to and then click on it, it will give you a “reply” “button” that you can then click on and it will put it in the next open text box. You can do that with every paragraph that you want to reply to and they will continue to go in the same text box until you click on “post reply”. That does two things......reduces your time copying and pasting but also tags the person to whom you are replying so they know you responded :).

Before Maxi's morning shot? It wouldn't have changed anything, would it have?
I would have suggested you go ahead and raise the dose with this morning’s shot but it’s really ok in light of your migraine that you increase tonight. I do worry when a member asks for our help and we aren’t around and they wonder why no one responded.

Last night's dose was not the previous dose to an increase.
I think I’ve confused you. Apologies. What I meant is that before you raise a dose, in this case to 8.75u, it’s important to know how low the 8.25u dose was taking him. Is that more clear? Again, sorry I was unclear.

Last night was the only cycle when I didn't test during the cycle, and I didn't because I was wiped out by a rip-roaring migraine
I’m very sorry and hope you feel better today.

Other than the last couple of days, do you think I'm not testing often enough?
No, not at all. I do think it’s important to get a +2, which you have often done. I don’t want to hammer on that any be abuse now you have the info from Wendy and me. And Wendy is correct.....I should have added the +2 is important for Lantus; however, it can vary because cats can onset at different times. Until one does enough +2 tests to see the patterns, like Wendy did with Neko on Lantus, it’s an “unknown”.

I really hope you feel better and I understand about the migraine. If you feel one coming on, I’d avoid using R. :)
 
Tagging @Olive & Paula who has experience with cabergoline and increasing the dose. Paula, do you think a month is enough time for a trial with no results and the dose should be increased?

Let me look back and see when I did it. I based it on symptoms though, not glucose. Brb

Did any symptoms go away and have they come back? Any new symptoms?

The 1st time I increased caber was on day 73 by 0.1 ml. Ollie's vet is okay with raising dose as long as it's no more than double original dose. Another thing to consider is Ollie's concentration is 100 mcg/ml. I just want to put out there that neither the vet nor I have any knowledge of what caber can or will do. But it works for Ollie to keep symptoms diminished.

ETA: Maxi was started at a low dose of caber. Maybe touch base with vet and see about getting him on the dose he should be for his weight. However, if vet agrees, I think you should walk up the dose and not just jump to it.
 
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Let me look back and see when I did it. I based it on symptoms though, not glucose. Brb

Did any symptoms go away and have they come back? Any new symptoms?

The 1st time I increased caber was on day 73 by 0.1 ml. Ollie's vet is okay with raising dose as long as it's no more than double original dose. Another thing to consider is Ollie's concentration is 100 mcg/ml. I just want to put out there that neither the vet nor I have any knowledge of what caber can or will do. But it works for Ollie to keep symptoms diminished.

ETA: Maxi was started at a low dose of caber. Maybe touch base with vet and see about getting him on the dose he should be for his weight. However, if vet agrees, I think you should walk up the dose and not just jump to it.

Thank you, Paula. What do you think the next increment for the cabergoline dose should be?
 
Did you know that if you highlight a section that you want to respond to and then click on it, it will give you a “reply” “button” that you can then click on and it will put it in the next open text box. You can do that with every paragraph that you want to reply to and they will continue to go in the same text box until you click on “post reply”. That does two things......reduces your time copying and pasting but also tags the person to whom you are replying so they know you responded :).

I thought that if I simply click on the reply button that is attached to the post I want to reply to, it automatically tagged the poster. Like I have here. Are you not tagged to this reply?


I would have suggested you go ahead and raise the dose with this morning’s shot but it’s really ok in light of your migraine that you increase tonight. I do worry when a member asks for our help and we aren’t around and they wonder why no one responded.

That's why the last couple of times I have asked for advice in advance.


I think I’ve confused you. Apologies. What I meant is that before you raise a dose, in this case to 8.75u, it’s important to know how low the 8.25u dose was taking him. Is that more clear? Again, sorry I was unclear.

Are the 6 cycles with sufficient testing at 8.25 not enough to know how low the 8.25 dose was taking him?


I’m very sorry and hope you feel better today.

Thank you. I had pain and nausea all day but now I feel better -- just wiped out.


No, not at all. I do think it’s important to get a +2, which you have often done. I don’t want to hammer on that any be abuse now you have the info from Wendy and me. And Wendy is correct.....I should have added the +2 is important for Lantus; however, it can vary because cats can onset at different times. Until one does enough +2 tests to see the patterns, like Wendy did with Neko on Lantus, it’s an “unknown”.

Don't I have enough +2 tests?


Tonight Maxi's number was 309, which is in the 1.5 R dose range of 300-349, but I gave him only 0.75 R because of the Lantus increase. Was that right?

Thanks
 
I thought that if I simply click on the reply button that is attached to the post I want to reply to, it automatically tagged the poster. Like I have here. Are you not tagged to this reply?
No, I wasn’t. I just checked back. See how different my post 7 looks from your post 10?

That's why the last couple of times I have asked for advice in advance.
Yes...that’s very wise. I just wanted to be sure if you were looking for Wendy or me early, we are Zzzzzzzzzzzz.


Are the 6 cycles with sufficient testing at 8.25 not enough to know how low the 8.25 dose was taking him?
Not necessarily. He dropped to 65 on the third cycle on 8.25u. Between then and today there were plenty of other cycles for him to drop again. As an example, my Gracie was a slow responder on Lantus. If I saw blue in the first six cycles, I knew to hold the dose for a total of 11 because she could kick in about then and earn a reduction.


Thank you. I had pain and nausea all day but now I feel better -- just wiped out.
:confused::confused:I’m sure it takes quite some time to recover.

Don't I have enough +2 tests?
You’ve done a good job. Is it enough to tell you when he onsets?


Tonight Maxi's number was 309, which is in the 1.5 R dose range of 300-349, but I gave him only 0.75 R because of the Lantus increase. Was that right?
That’s good. Some cats get NDW on the first few cucles of an increase and some drop right away and then level off a bit.

Feel better and get some rest.:)
 
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Should I ask the vet about increasing the cabergoline?
Probably a good idea to discuss it. Not sure how much your vet has read about dosing, but at some point he/she will realize you are increasing when you need another prescription. Right now Maxi is getting half the dose most cats are on.
 
Right now Maxi is getting half the dose most cats are on

I didn't realize that. I knew his dose was on the low end to start safely, but I thought it was the normal dose. I thought this was the advised dose. Can anyone here advise on what the proper dose for Maxi would be?

Isn't Maxi getting more than Ollie? @Olive & Paula
 
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I've asked the vet about increasing cabergoline and am waiting for her reply.

On this site (http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...ble-treatment-for-acrocats-discussion.184012/), there hasn't been discussion of it for 3 years.

On this site I've seen a couple of anecdotes about it being helpful, but I've also seen something about a lack of evidence that it's helpful.

There hasn't been any recent research that I can find. Not everything I've found is positive.
Of the research I found, at least one article suggests cabergoline is not effective.
I also saw an article that seems to suggest it might have cause heart problems.

So, I'm wondering if cabergoline is actually helpful for Maxi.

I'm copying what I've sent to the vet:


Here is the email from Chris Scudder where he mentions octreotide.


Hi,
Thank you for your email.
I have come to the conclusion that only a small proportion of acromegalic cats respond to cabergoline in my experience, and did not find a better response if cats were receiving 10mcg/kg/day or 15 mcg/kg/day.
With regard to side effects, in humans there is a low risk of heart valve disease, and only seems to occur on much higher doses than the doses I have used for cats. Nonetheless, if there is worry about her breathing then a chest xray and heart ultrasound could be considered because hcm is common in cats, and it seems acromegalic cats are more at risk of heart failure than cats without acromegaly regardless of their therapy. This risk only seems to go away after hypophysectomy. I did have one cat go into heart failure in my study after 2.5 months, again I do not know of this was due to cabergoline or being acromegalic.
If you struggle to get control using cabergoline alone, you could add in octreotide and give them both together. I have only done this in one cat so far but it worked well when they did not respond to cabergoline as a stand alone drug.
I always recommend high protein diets, to keep acro cats lean and active to also aid diabetic control.
I hope this helps,
Bw
Chris



VET’S RESPONSE RE. DOSE:

As a vet not working within your country / state I cannot prescribe medications. However, I can tell you what I have used in the past, which was a starting dose of 0.05mg or 0.1mg per injection once daily of short acting octreotide (there are long-acting versions also available which I have not yet used). Pasireotide is a very effective treatment in the patients I have used it in, and I used a dose of 0.03mg/kg once daily by subcutaneous injection of the short-acting preparation of pasireotide.

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PILOT STUDY ASSESSING THE USE OF CABERGOLINE IN THE MANAGEMENT OF DIABETIC ACROMEGALIC CATS. C.J. Scudder, K. Hazuchova, R. Gostelow, V. Woolhead, Y. Forcada, D.B. Church, R.C. Fowkes, S.J.M. Niessen. Royal Veterinary College, Hatfield, UK

Cabergoline is a dopamine 2 receptor (D2R) agonist which is a second line medical therapy for human acromegalic patients. Pasir- eotide, a somatostatin analogue, is the only effective medical man- agement option for feline acromegaly but its cost is a limiting factor for many owners. Our work has demonstrated dopamine receptors within the feline acromegalic pituitary and we hypothe- sized that cabergoline would improve diabetic control and IGF-1 concentrations of diabetic acromegalic cats.

This was a prospective cohort study of client-owned diabetic acromegalic cats, Ethics approval URN 2016 1604. Enrolment cri- teria were: a diagnosis of diabetes mellitus, an IGF-1 concentra- tion >1000 ng/mL and owners declining alternative treatment options for acromegaly. Patients were admitted to the hospital on day 0, underwent pituitary imaging and started cabergoline ther- apy (Kelactin, Kela N.V.) on day 1. Cats were monitored in hospital until day 4 and were discharged to continue treatment at home. Serum IGF-1 and fructosamine were measured on day 0, day 4 and month 1. Any possible medication side effects were recorded. Descriptive statistics and non-parametric tests were used to analyze the data.

Six cats were enrolled. The first three cats received 5 μg/kg q24 h PO and the second three cats received 10 ug/kg q24 h PO of cabergoline. The median IGF-1 concentration at day 0 was 1797 ng/mL (range 890–>2000) which was not statistically different to day 4 and month 1 (1884 ng/mL and 1754 ng/mL, respectively). The median fructosamine concentration on day 0 was 551 lmol/L (range 454–887) which was not statistically different from day 4 and month 1 (551 to 569, respectively). All cats were receiving PZI insulin (ProZinc, Boehringer) and the median dose on day 0 (1.1 units/kg q12 h) was not different to day 4 and month 1 (1.1 and
1.2, respectively). Three patients experienced a single gastrointesti- nal upset event (inappetence, diarrhea) which resolved within three days. One of the six cats experienced an improvement of diabetic control (fructosamine day 0 was 454 lmol/L and month 1 was 288 lmol/L while insulin dose on day 0 was 1 unit/kg q12 h and month 1 was 0.2 units/kg q12 h) although there was no decrease of IGF-1 concentration (day 0: 890 ng/mL; month 1: 929 ng/mL).

Cabergoline therapy, using the investigated dose and duration, was not associated with a reduction in IGF-1 concentration in the tested diabetic acromegalic cats; glycemic control improved in one. Additional cases, alternative dosing regimens and longer-term follow-up are being assessed.
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Pharmacological treatment with cabergoline in three cats with acromegaly¤ Tratamiento farmacológico con cabergolina en tres gatos con acromegalia Tratamento farmacológico com cabergolina em três gatos com acromegalia Elber A Soler Arias*, MV, Sp; Jorge D García, MV; Víctor A Castillo, MV. Unidad de Endocrinología, Área de Clínica Médica de Pequeños Animales, Hospital Escuela, Facultad de Ciencias Veterinarias, Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires, Argentina. (Received: November 10, 2016; accepted: April 22, 2017) doi: 10.17533/udea.rccp.v30n4a07 Abstract Anamnesis: Three cats diagnosed with diabetes mellitus (DM) were referred for examination due to the presence of insulin resistance signs, which included polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia and high fructosamine levels, even with insulin glargine doses greater than 2 U/Kg/application. Clinical and laboratory findings: All patients had enlarged facial features along with increased interdental space. The biochemical tests revealed high IGF-1 concentrations. The magnetic resonance imaging displayed enlarged pituitary gland in one of the cats and images compatible with a pituitary macroadenoma in the other two. Acromegaly was the final diagnosis. Treatment approach: Oral cabergoline at 10 µg/Kg every 48 h was administered. Conclusion: The treatment with cabergoline successfully decreased IGF-1 concentrations and all insulin resistance signs, and it enhanced glycemic control for the DM in the three cats. Our results suggest cabergoline could be used for the treatment of acromegaly in cats. Keywords: diabetes, dopaminergic agonist, growth hormone, hypersomatotropism, IGF-1, insulin resistance.. Introduction Acromegaly (AMG) or hypersomatotropism is a disease generally attributed to a pituitary adenoma —somatotropinoma, which causes hypersecretion of growth hormone (GH; Katznelson et al., 2014). Its diagnosis is usually suspected in cats affected by uncontrolled diabetes mellitus (DM) as a result of GH-induced insulin resistance (IR) or, secondarily, in those with neurological compromise resulting from the expansion of a pituitary tumor, and exceptionally in cats that have only typical AMG features (ScottMoncrieff, 2010; Fracassi et al., 2016). Treating IR to achieve good glycemic control becomes in most cases an essential goal in the management of AMG in cats (Scott-Moncrieff, 2010). To achieve this goal, procedures such as transsphenoidal surgery, cryohypophyisectomy and radiotherapy, as well as pharmacological treatments with somatostatin analogs (octreotide and pasireotide) and selegiline (dopaminergic agonist) have been tried (Reusch, 2015). Although both surgery and radiotherapy have achieved a good outcome as treatment for AMG in cats, these turn out to be invasive methods, requiring not only anesthesia, but also specialized facilities (Reusch, 2015). Both short-acting and long-acting pasireotide have been tested with good response in cats with AMG, but their high cost is a limiting factor (Gostelow et al., 2017). In human medicine, cabergoline (Cbg), a potent D2 receptor dopamine agonist, used in monotherapy or in association with somatostatin analogs, has achieved normalization of GH and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) levels, with tumor shrinkage in 30 and 50% of the patients with AMG (Marazuela et al., 2014). In veterinary medicine, Cbg was used with satisfactory results in 42.5% of dogs with pituitarydependent hyperadrenocorticism, reducing ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormones) values, urinary cortisol, and size of pituitary tumors (Castillo et al., 2008). 318 Rev Colomb Cienc Pecu 2017; 30:316-321 Soler EA et al. Cabergoline for acromegalic cats To the best of our knowledge, this is the fi rst report describing the use and response obtained with Cbg for the pharmacological treatment of AMG in cats with DM. Anamnesis Three short-haired doctored house cats, two males and a female, aged 13, 7, and 6, were referred to the endocrine unit presenting DM with diffi cult glycemic control. The three cats had been receiving an average dose equal to or higher than 2 U/Kg insulin glargine every 12 h (bid) and received a commercial diet for diabetic cats divided into two equal rations with each application of insulin. All of them presented polyuria (PU), polydipsia (PD) and polyphagia (PF), and slight weight loss in Case 1. One of the cats had been diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (Case 2), and none of them had been

treated with glucocorticoids or progestagens. Clinical and laboratory fi ndings The main clinical fi ndings are summarized in Table 1. Physical changes are depicted in Figure 1 (A-G). Normal results were obtained in hemogram, serum biochemistry and urine culture for the three cats, except for Case 2, where there was evidence of an increase in total protein (8.4 g/L; reference value [RV]: 5-7 g/L), glutamic-pyruvic transaminase (GPT: 342 IU/L, RV: Up to 60 IU/L) and low levels of potassium (2.82 mmol/L, RV: 3.7-5 mmol/L). Infections by virus such as feline immunodefi ciency virus (FIV) and feline leukemia virus (FeLV) were ruled out in the three cats using a commercial immunochromatographic assay (Speed DUO FeLV-FIV, Virbac). Other IR causes were also excluded, such as hyperthyroidism and Cushing’s syndrome because the cats did not have typical clinical signs and, additionally, the level of total thyroxine, free thyroxine, and urine cortisol: Creatinine ratio (UCCR) were normal. Fructosamine in the three cats was high, confi rming poor glycemic control of DM. Biochemical diagnosis of AMG was established by high IGF-1 levels obtained in the three cats (Table 2). A T1-weighted magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of the sellar region, following administration of the contrast medium (gadolinium), revealed increased Table 1. Clinical fi ndings in three cats with acromegaly. Description of cats Weight (Kg) Clinical fi ndings Concurrent disease Case 1, male, 13-years-old 3.5 “Mild” widening of facial features “Mild” widened of interdental spaces DM Case 2, male, 7-years-old 5.8 Enlargement of head and extremities Inferior prognathia Widened interdental spaces DM, HC Case 3, female, 6-years-old 4.5 Broad facial features “Severe” inferior prognathia “Severe” widened interdental spaces DM DM: Diabetes mellitus; HC: Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Figure 1. Cases 1A and 1B: Widened interdental space; Case 2: (C-D): C: Generalized increase in body size, D: Increase in interdental space with lower prognathism; Case 3 (E-G): E: Enlarged face; F: Lower prognathism; G: Widened interdental space with lower prognathism. pituitary size (5.7 mm width x 4.5 mm height —normal up to 5.0 mm width, and up to 3.3 mm height according to Feldman, 2015) for Case 1 (Figure 2A). 319 Rev Colomb Cienc Pecu 2017; 30:316-321 Soler EA et al. Cabergoline for acromegalic cats Table 2. Biochemical diagnosis and follow-up of acromegaly in three cats with diabetes mellitus treated with 10 µg/Kg Cbg every 48 h. Case 1 Case 2 Case 3 Weight (Kg) 3.5 5.8 4.5 Thyroxine (µg/dL) 1.6 1.4 1.3 Free thyroxine (ng/dL) 1.1 1.0 0.8 UCCR (x 10-6) 27 23 22 Before cabergoline administration IGF-1 (ng/mL) 947 >1500 >1500 Fructosamine (µmol/L) 625 829 963 Insulin (U/cat, bid) 7 14 9 After 3-month cabergoline administration IGF-1 (ng/mL) 436 805 728 Fructosamine (µmol/L) 304 302 299 Insulin (U/cat, bid) Wi 5 4 After 6-month cabergoline administration IGF-1(ng/mL) 425 510 492 Fructosamine (µmol/L) 297 318 311 Insulin (U/cat, bid) Wi 3 2 Thyroxine, reference value (RV): 1-3 µg/dL (Chemiluminiscence-CLM); Free thyroxine, RV: 0.6-1.6 ng/dL (CLM); UCCR: Urine cortisol creatinine ratio, RV: 36 x 10-6 (Feldman, 2015); IGF-1: Insulin-like growth factor 1, RV cats with diabetes mellitus: 208-443 ng/mL, cats with acromegaly >1000 ng/mL (Niessen et al., 2007), CLM; Fructosamine, RV: 1000 ng/mL) established by Niessen et al. (2007) for AMG diagnosis in cats, but considerably higher than that in non-acromegalic cats with DM (208-443 ng/mL) according to the same author. This suggests that many cats with AMG are likely to undergo subclinical stages with minor physical manifestation and subtler MRI findings than those presenting truly high IGF-1 levels. This reasoning is based on findings by Niessen et al. (2007) and Peterson et al. (2007) for acromegalic cats phenotypically indistinguishable from normal cats, without detectable pituitary masses in the MRI, probably due to microadenomas or pituitary hyperplasia (Niessen et al., 2007; Lonser et al., 2010; Khandelwal et al., 2011; Feldman, 2015). The use of Cbg in cats with AMG was suggested because it is highly available and economical compared to pasireotide. Bromocriptine and Cbg, two dopamine D2 receptor agonist drugs, have been used for treating hyperprolactinemia and acromegaly in humans (Rains et al., 1995). However, Cbg has shown better results, fewer adverse effects and greater

tolerability relative to bromocriptine in both humans and dogs (Wanke et al., 2002; Castillo et al., 2008; Marazuela et al., 2014). Another advantage offered by Cbg is the longer interval between doses —only 3 times/week. It must be emphasized that Cbg has not been used to treat cats with acromegaly, and adverse effects and optimal doses are unknown. Increase of transaminases and anorexia were observed with 15 µg of Cbg every 72 h in Case 1; however, data are insufficient to state it as typical adverse effects of Cbg in cats with AMG. After Cbg treatment, all three cats showed reduction of IGF-1, fructosamine and insulin requirements along with resolution of clinical signs by the third and sixth months. These results are similar to those by Gostelow et al. (2017) with short-action and long-acting pasireotide injection and, apparently, are more promising than those 321 Rev Colomb Cienc Pecu 2017; 30:316-321 Soler EA et al. Cabergoline for acromegalic cats obtained with radiotherapy (the most commonly used treatment for cats with acromegaly), where no such improvement in IGF-1 levels has been observed despite improving clinical signs with reduction of insulin requirements (Reusch, 2015). Future studies should evaluate pituitary size in acromegalic cats after Cbg treatment, given the known antiproliferative and proapoptotic effects of Cbg on corticotropinoma, somatotropinoma and prolactinoma neoplastic cells, both in humans and dogs (Castillo et al., 2008; Marazuela et al., 2014). Due to the absence of neurological signs and given the enhanced glycemic control achieved with Cbg treatment, none of the owners agreed to perform MRI follow-ups. Conclusion Despite the small number of cases, the apparent effect on IGF-1 reduction, IR reversal and improved glycemic control suggest that Cbg may hold promise for the treatment of feline AMG. This drug should be studied in a larger number of cases and during longer follow-ups to reach definitive conclusions. The AMG may evolve in cats presenting minimal physical symptoms. Consequently, the use of IGF-1 in cats with insulin-resistant diabetes mellitus is recommended given that early diagnosis and Cbg treatment would enhance DM control in those cases.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9274706

http://www.veterinaryirelandjournal.com/images/pdf/focus/focus1_sep_2018.pdf

https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/3/1/181/5128914

http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.db29.lin...14-434a-4678-881a-e6ce1a243af5@sessionmgr4006
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@Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sandy and Black Kitty @Olive & Paula
 
Karen, I have all the studies. A lot of it is to technical for me. Most of the studies were for less than 1 year. None of the studies increased the dose of cabergoline. Ollie's stidor (what we base caber increases on) went away when we started it. The stidor came back and when it continued non stop for one week is when we tried raising the caber. Vet and I have no guidelines on this stuff. We figured we had nothing to lose. That chance paid off, the stidor went away again. And this happened a few more times until we reached her current dose of 0.84 ml of caber. She has been holding steady on this dose for close to a year I think.

I already knew Ollie has HCM, knew this before we knew of the acro. Her last echo showed improvement. I probably can guess the benazepril and better control of the glucoses, is reason for that, not caber.

The other drug the studies mention is pasireotide and octreotide, they cost over $13,000/month something I just can't afford. If I could I would do the radiation, even that is no guarantee Ollie would go into remission. The removal surgery in my opinion is brutal recovery and again no guarantee. Few months back a kitty who had the removal is now diabetic again. I really should keep track of this stuff.

I also know Ollie has an abdominal mass near a kidney which IM says is adrenal based. It can be one of two kinds but without biopsy we don't know. If it's the one, the biopsy can kill her instantly, I won't take that chance. We don't know what this mass is doing or not doing.

I'm going to start another post as it will be different tone.
 
Karen, I have all the studies. A lot of it is to technical for me. Most of the studies were for less than 1 year. None of the studies increased the dose of cabergoline. Ollie's stidor (what we base caber increases on) went away when we started it. The stidor came back and when it continued non stop for one week is when we tried raising the caber. Vet and I have no guidelines on this stuff. We figured we had nothing to lose. That chance paid off, the stidor went away again. And this happened a few more times until we reached her current dose of 0.84 ml of caber. She has been holding steady on this dose for close to a year I think.

I already knew Ollie has HCM, knew this before we knew of the acro. Her last echo showed improvement. I probably can guess the benazepril and better control of the glucoses, is reason for that, not caber.

The other drug the studies mention is pasireotide and octreotide, they cost over $13,000/month something I just can't afford. If I could I would do the radiation, even that is no guarantee Ollie would go into remission. The removal surgery in my opinion is brutal recovery and again no guarantee. Few months back a kitty who had the removal is now diabetic again. I really should keep track of this stuff.

I also know Ollie has an abdominal mass near a kidney which IM says is adrenal based. It can be one of two kinds but without biopsy we don't know. If it's the one, the biopsy can kill her instantly, I won't take that chance. We don't know what this mass is doing or not doing.

I'm going to start another post as it will be different tone.

Thank you, Paula.

Am I dumb, or is 0.84 ml less than 1 ml? (Yes, I'm dumb in the dorsal parietal and frontal [math part of the] brain, but not the language part!)
Ollie is on 0.84 ml and Maxi is on 1 ml, so Maxi is taking more than Ollie.
Somebody said that most cats are getting 2 ml.

I think Maxi's stridor is about the same as it was before cabergoline.

His general feeling of wellness *might* be slightly improved since cabergoline.

His glucose levels are still high.



@Olive & Paula @Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sandy and Black Kitty
 
I will be blunt, and it's not meant to mean or directed at anyone.

Be brutally honest with yourself in why you want to use cabergoline.

For remission? So you don't have to test or give insulin? There is no guarantee. I probably wouldn't use it, if it's was for my convenience, I can think of better ways to spend my money. I could fully retire again. I went back to work just to pay for her caber.

To help symptoms so Maxi is more comfortable, have less pain and maybe slow down secretions of tumor? But still need insulin? It works for us.

Maxi wasn't started on the dose for his weight, he was started lower. Its only been 1 month. The tumor is probably stronger than the caber is. Caber hasn't had time to (my thinking here) over power the secretions yet ( don't know how else to put it).

People who have tried it and gave up, in my opinion, they didn't give it enough time and they expected a miracle. Cabergoline will not cure diabetes.

I get 30 day supply of caber, I think but can not actually pin down since she fluctuates all the time, is that the caber starts to lose potency after 3 weeks. When I get my new bottle I alternate the two. One night of new med, next night old med until old is gone.

If I remember correctly you got a 60 day supply, could it be losing potency? Probably no way to know.

Talk to your vet. If you decided to stop the cabergoline, remember it needs to be tapered off. If you continue, ask for correct dose and 30 day supply with refills. Give it a good six months try for relieving symptoms, not for remission. Then re-evaluate.
 
Thank you, Paula.

Am I dumb, or is 0.84 ml less than 1 ml? (Yes, I'm dumb in the dorsal parietal and frontal [math part of the] brain, but not the language part!)
Ollie is on 0.84 ml and Maxi is on 1 ml, so Maxi is taking more than Ollie.
Somebody said that most cats are getting 2 ml.

I think Maxi's stridor is about the same as it was before cabergoline.

His general feeling of wellness *might* be slightly improved since cabergoline.

His glucose levels are still high.



@Olive & Paula @Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sandy and Black Kitty

Maxi's concentration is 30 mcg/ml correct?

Ollie's is 100 mcg/ml. So she is getting more like 84 mcg.

People who give the capsule usually get it in 75 mcg. I think but not sure Pamela and Amethyst get 125 mcg.
 
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I will be blunt, and it's not meant to mean or directed at anyone.

Be brutally honest with yourself in why you want to use cabergoline.

For remission? So you don't have to test or give insulin? There is no guarantee. I probably wouldn't use it, if it's was for my convenience, I can think of better ways to spend my money. I could fully retire again. I went back to work just to pay for her caber.

To help symptoms so Maxi is more comfortable, have less pain and maybe slow down secretions of tumor? But still need insulin? It works for us.

Maxi wasn't started on the dose for his weight, he was started lower. Its only been 1 month. The tumor is probably stronger than the caber is. Caber hasn't had time to (my thinking here) over power the secretions yet ( don't know how else to put it).

People who have tried it and gave up, in my opinion, they didn't give it enough time and they expected a miracle. Cabergoline will not cure diabetes.

I get 30 day supply of caber, I think but can not actually pin down since she fluctuates all the time, is that the caber starts to lose potency after 3 weeks. When I get my new bottle I alternate the two. One night of new med, next night old med until old is gone.

If I remember correctly you got a 60 day supply, could it be losing potency? Probably no way to know.

Talk to your vet. If you decided to stop the cabergoline, remember it needs to be tapered off. If you continue, ask for correct dose and 30 day supply with refills. Give it a good six months try for relieving symptoms, not for remission. Then re-evaluate.

Thank you, Paula.

As I've said, my goal is to help Maxi as much as possible -- anywhere from reducing symptoms that make him feel unwell to total remission. If all cabergoline does is make him feel better, that's enough reason to stay on it. I would like to know if cabergoline is having any positive effect. Otherwise, why give it? I can't see an obvious improvement, but of course my observation isn't conclusive. If it has potential to help him at a higher dose, then I would like to try a higher dose.

I was under the impression that the effects of cabergoline appear after about a month. It's been about a month - hence my inquiry.

Yes, Maxi's concentration is 30 mcg/ml. (He gets 1 ml once a day in liquid form mixed with his evening meal.) I got a 30-day supply.

What dose would you recommend increasing to?

Thanks!

@Olive & Paula @Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sandy and Black Kitty
 
Thank you, Paula.

As I've said, my goal is to help Maxi as much as possible -- anywhere from reducing symptoms that make him feel unwell to total remission. If all cabergoline does is make him feel better, that's enough reason to stay on it. I would like to know if cabergoline is having any positive effect. Otherwise, why give it? I can't see an obvious improvement, but of course my observation isn't conclusive. If it has potential to help him at a higher dose, then I would like to try a higher dose.

I was under the impression that the effects of cabergoline appear after about a month. It's been about a month - hence my inquiry.

Yes, Maxi's concentration is 30 mcg/ml. (He gets 1 ml once a day in liquid form mixed with his evening meal.) I got a 30-day supply.

What dose would you recommend increasing to?

Thanks!

@Olive & Paula @Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie @Sandy and Black Kitty

You need to discuss with your vet. Anyone else I know on cabergoline the concentration is as least double or more than what you are giving. Its the concentration that matters.
 
I am going to leave the cabergoline responses to those who have used it. My Gracie was not a high dose cat so I never used it. I did use R extensively, though.
@Wendy&Neko @Marje and Gracie

I should always get a +2. Does this mean I should always test 2 hours after Lantus AND 2 hours after R?
Anytime you are able to you want to:

  • get a +2 after you shoot Lantus alone or when you shoot Lantus and R at either PS
  • get an R+2 whenever you shoot R; that doesn’t mean it precludes an R+1 test. You know your cat so you should know when you need an R+1 but I wouldn’t skip an R+2.
 
Cabergoline is dosed based on so many mcg per weight (kg) of the cat. The range of "so many" is from 5 to 10 mcg per kg. In this previous discussion, we talked about Maxi being on the 5mcg per kg dose. He could still go up to the 10 mcg per kg dose, which would mean doubling what he is getting now. Repeating what I said previously:
At 13.5 lbs, Maxi is 6.14 kg, so a dose of 60 mcg/day would be the upper end, 30 would be the lower end. Some people here started low and increased it. Sounds like your vet prescribed the lower end to start.
Maxi is currently on 30mcg per day.
 
Anytime you are able to you want to:

  • get a +2 after you shoot Lantus alone or when you shoot Lantus and R at either PS
  • get an R+2 whenever you shoot R; that doesn’t mean it precludes an R+1 test. You know your cat so you should know when you need an R+1 but I wouldn’t skip an R+2.

Thank you, Marje.

So, this means that I'll probably be testing Maxi at
9:30 am
11:30 am
3:30 pm
5:30 pm
9:30 pm
11:30 pm
3:30 am
5:30 am

That's why I said it was funny when you suggested that I get rest.
I don't know if this kind of wee-hours testing is common, and I don't know how others handle it, but for me each of the 3:30 and 5:30 tests = at least an hour of wakefulness.
 
Cabergoline is dosed based on so many mcg per weight (kg) of the cat. The range of "so many" is from 5 to 10 mcg per kg. In this previous discussion, we talked about Maxi being on the 5mcg per kg dose. He could still go up to the 10 mcg per kg dose, which would mean doubling what he is getting now. Repeating what I said previously:
Maxi is currently on 30mcg per day.

Thanks, Wendy.
 
Thank you, Marje.

So, this means that I'll probably be testing Maxi at
9:30 am
11:30 am
3:30 pm
5:30 pm
9:30 pm
11:30 pm
3:30 am
5:30 am

That's why I said it was funny when you suggested that I get rest.
I don't know if this kind of wee-hours testing is common, and I don't know how others handle it, but for me each of the 3:30 and 5:30 tests = at least an hour of wakefulness.
If you shoot at 9:30, then yes, generally, again when you can, also at 11:30 if you shoot Lantus alone or Lantus and R at PS. Then let your meter be your guide. Why get stuck in a schedule?

In the a.m., if you test at +2 and the BG is up, maybe you don’t want to test again until +6 or +7. I found with Gracie that if she was up two hours after I shot R, she wasn’t going to come back down.

In the p.m., test/shoot at 9:30 and do a +2 at 11:30. Then see what you need to do from there. If giving R at night is going to interfere with your rest, don’t give it.

Again, let your meter be your guide as to when you need to test again and be flexible.
 
Thanks, Marje.


Then let your meter be your guide. Why get stuck in a schedule?

How does one let the meter be one's guide? I mean naturally I dose the R according to what the meter reading is, but beyond that I don't know what you mean.

I understood that following a regular schedule was very important, that I should always test at +6, mid-Lantus cycle, to see if he needs R.

At 11:30 I usually see that his number is not dropping much. (Sometimes it even goes up.)


In the a.m., if you test at +2 and the BG is up, maybe you don’t want to test again until +6 or +7

I do that.


If giving R at night is going to interfere with your rest, don’t give it.

Of course it interferes with my rest, but how else can I keep his glucose down as much as possible?
The Lantus isn't getting it down to a good level, and neither is the R, but now I'm afraid that without the R it will be even worse/higher.


Again, let your meter be your guide as to when you need to test again and be flexible.

To let the meter be my guide, I still have to get up in the night to use the meter, no?
 
How does one let the meter be one's guide?
By that I mean if you test and numbers are going up, you can take a break. If they are the same or coming down, you need to test again. How soon depends on what the meter says. How much is the drop from the test before? Where in the cycle is it? Those are some of the questions you’ll want to answer.

I understood that following a regular schedule was very important, that I should always test at +6, mid-Lantus cycle, to see if he needs R.
When you start with R, it helps to “get the feel” of it and what it does by using it at specific times where you know it’s really safe. But, as you use it and build data, you can shoot it when you really need it. You just want to be sure you aren’t overlapping nadirs, you don’t give it as a bounce is clearing and also likely as you are increasing the dose. As you gather data, you learn when it is most effective for Maxi and also when to skip it.

The Lantus isn't getting it down to a good level, and neither is the R, but now I'm afraid that without the R it will be even worse/higher.
Lantus isn’t good about yanking down high numbers and that’s why you do need the R at least for the immediate future.

I wish I could say to every member that they didn’t need to test at night. It’s just not true. If you haven’t looked at Gracie’s SS, you might want to take a peek. But, by letting your meter be your guide, there might be times when you can lay off the testing and get some rest.

You’ll also see I was pretty flexible with the R and you will get there, too. Take a look at Crystal’s SS and br sure to click on the link to her other SSs so you can see her full journey. Suki lives in France and couldn’t get SRT so she got Crystal in pretty decent numbers using just Levemir and R.
 
if you test and numbers are going up, you can take a break.

by letting your meter be your guide, there might be times when you can lay off the testing and get some rest.


By 'a break' and 'lay off the testing' you mean an hour to a few hours without testing, right?



I was pretty flexible with the R


Being flexible with R doesn't mean being flexible with testing, right? You still have to test.



I looked at Gracie's and Crystal's SSs, and I saw that you both tested a lot, at most hours of the day and night.
Also, it looks like Crystal's insulin increases were faster and by larger increments than Maxi's. Why is that?

It seems that our definitions of 'rest' and 'break' are different. I guess to stay on top of Maxi's care I will never sleep through the night. I can accept that. But I won't be working from home forever, and I don't know what to do when I have to work from my workplace again.



When you start with R, it helps to “get the feel” of it and what it does by using it at specific times where you know it’s really safe. But, as you use it and build data, you can shoot it when you really need it. You just want to be sure you aren’t overlapping nadirs, you don’t give it as a bounce is clearing and also likely as you are increasing the dose. As you gather data, you learn when it is most effective for Maxi and also when to skip it.

I thought I had to wait until at least 4 hours after Lantus before giving R because Lantus's nadir is usually at or is meant to be at +6. So if he doesn't get R at his Lantus time, sometimes I check at +4, but I always check at +6 and give R if his number falls within the range. As you said, the meter tells me what to do. But I have to follow the +4 minimum and not less than 2 hours before the next Lantus shot for R, don't I?


Thank you!
 
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By 'a break' and 'lay off the testing' you mean an hour to a few hours without testing, right?

Being flexible with R doesn't mean being flexible with testing, right? You still have to test.

I looked at Gracie's and Crystal's SSs, and I saw that you both tested a lot, at most hours of the day and night.
Also, it looks like Crystal's insulin increases were faster and by larger increments than Maxi's. Why is that?

It seems that our definitions of 'rest' and 'break' are different. I guess to stay on top of Maxi's care I will never sleep through the night. I can accept that. But I won't be working from home forever, and I don't know what to do when I have to work from my workplace again.

I thought I had to wait until at least 4 hours after Lantus before giving R because Lantus's nadir is usually at or is meant to be at +6. So if he doesn't get R at his Lantus time, sometimes I check at +4, but I always check at +6 and give R if his number falls within the range. As you said, the meter tells me what to do. But I have to follow the +4 minimum and not less than 2 hours before the next Lantus shot for R, don't I?

Thank you!
Karen...sorry I’ve been out of pocket today. We are just getting dinner ready so I’ll be back soon to respond. I will respond on today’s condo. Thanks for your patience.
 
By 'a break' and 'lay off the testing' you mean an hour to a few hours without testing, right?
Yes. If the numbers are obviously headed up and you aren’t giving R, if you are past nadir and aren’t giving R, etc, then look at your data and see when you might need to test again. It could be a couple hours or even much longer if you didn’t give R and you know the numbers aren’t going to come back down.

Being flexible with R doesn't mean being flexible with testing, right? You still have to test.
Look at a lot of SSs and you’ll see there is flexibility in testing depending on what the BG is. Once I was comfortable with Gracie’s patterns and then her patterns with R, I was able to be flexible in both. It’s a challenge when you are new to figure out the patterns but if you study his SS and determine his onset, nadir, and duration for both insulins, that should help you with testing and shooting R.

Also, it looks like Crystal's insulin increases were faster and by larger increments than Maxi's. Why is that?
Under the TR protocol, you can raise the dose every four cycles if nadirs are over 300. Once the dose gets over 5u, we often suggest increasing by 10%. Suki was also home with Crystal and so she could test enough to know how low a dose was taking her and when it was safe to increase.

It seems that our definitions of 'rest' and 'break' are different.
When I say “break”, I’m usually referring to testing and when I say “rest”, I mean get some sleep. One thing I read was that for people that must get up at night (e.g. new mothers), getting 1.5 hours of interrupted sleep is important. I couldn’t always do this with Gracie but it was my goal especially in the last couple years even if that meant I fed her higher LC food so I could go longer between tests. But I knew her and her cycles. That’s really important.

I thought I had to wait until at least 4 hours after Lantus before giving R because Lantus's nadir is usually at or is meant to be at +6. So if he doesn't get R at his Lantus time, sometimes I check at +4, but I always check at +6 and give R if his number falls within the range. As you said, the meter tells me what to do. But I have to follow the +4 minimum and not less than 2 hours before the next Lantus shot for R, don't I?
I haven’t read through all your condos so I don’t know what Sandy or Wendy has told you but I trust what they say. You might ask them because they may have a specific plan for Maxie and I don’t want to mess that up.

But, very generally speaking, there isn’t a “rule” that you can’t shoot R within 4 hours of Lantus. The critical thing is not to overlap nadirs. For instance, as an example, if you give Lantus at AMPS, you see the BG going up still by +3 and you know he onsets at +2, why not stop the skyrocket? Again, I’m speaking generally to address your question but it’s important to check with Wendy and Sandy in case they have a specific plan.
 
Thank you, Marje.


if you study his SS and determine his onset, nadir, and duration for both insulins, that should help you with testing and shooting R.

I don't see any patterns. I see that there are as many days, if not more days, when the insulin doesn't bring his numbers significantly down as when it does. In fact there are plenty of days when his numbers go up after getting insulin, even at +6 or after when Lantus is supposed to cause nadir or +2 when R is supposed to cause nadir.

Under the TR protocol, you can raise the dose every four cycles if nadirs are over 300. Once the dose gets over 5u, we often suggest increasing by 10%.

Does that mean every nadir? Maxi has nadirs (if they can be called nadirs) of over 300. And his dose is well over 5 units. I've been increasing every 6 or more cycles by less than 10%. Maybe Wendy didn't recommend this out of caution. But I'd like to hurry and get Maxi's numbers better.

When I say “break”, I’m usually referring to testing and when I say “rest”, I mean get some sleep. One thing I read was that for people that must get up at night (e.g. new mothers), getting 1.5 hours of interrupted sleep is important.

What I meant by 'different definitions' was for you a break means a couple hours off testing and rest means more than 1.5 hours of sleep. For me a break means a cycle without testing and a night of uninterrupted sleep. Just one night of uninterrupted sleep doesn't really bring me to 100% either. Call me a wuss, but I worry about my health at this rate.

if you give Lantus at AMPS, you see the BG going up still by +3 and you know he onsets at +2, why not stop the skyrocket

I've done that, not that I think there's an established onset. I've given R before +6 if I didn't give it at Lantus time.
 
I don't see any patterns. I see that there are as many days, if not more days, when the insulin doesn't bring his numbers significantly down as when it does. In fact there are plenty of days when his numbers go up after getting insulin, even at +6 or after when Lantus is supposed to cause nadir or +2 when R is supposed to cause nadir.
If he’s still not approaching a correct dose, that might be the case but it’s a good idea to keep studying his SS for clues. You can see how much insulin it took for Crystal to look better. Let’s hope the cabergoline will help Maxie so his dose doesn’t have to get that high.

Does that mean every nadir? Maxi has nadirs (if they can be called nadirs) of over 300. And his dose is well over 5 units. I've been increasing every 6 or more cycles by less than 10%. Maybe Wendy didn't recommend this out of caution. But I'd like to hurry and get Maxi's numbers better.
You don’t want to fast track a kitty and shoot R. When we fast track cats, we are looking at the ones that have most nadirs over 300 not just an occasional one or two. If there are one or two nadirs in yellow in six cycles, we might fast track but, again, not while using R. Maxie is having a lot of yellow nadirs so I’d just continue with the R and increase his dose every six cycles by 0.5u at this time.

What I meant by 'different definitions' was for you a break means a couple hours off testing and rest means more than 1.5 hours of sleep. For me a break means a cycle without testing and a night of uninterrupted sleep. Just one night of uninterrupted sleep doesn't really bring me to 100% either. Call me a wuss, but I worry about my health at this rate.
Let me clarify. As long as a CG is well and can test, one needs to have a least two tests a cycle including the PS. Three is better for data building and knowledge. But, I’m a proponent for self-health and also giving the kitty a pokey break. Gracie was on Levemir and if we tested at her onset and she was going up, we didn’t test again until the next PS. That might be eight hours.

What I meant by 1-1/2 hours rest is that when a kitty gets down into blue and green numbers and/or is dropping from those numbers, if a CG can safely spread the tests out so they can at least get 1-1/2 hours of rest in between them, it’s better than only getting a quick 30 mins. Although there were nights we only got that quick 30 mins. I certainly am not saying that if a kitty is in flat yellow all the time that you should be testing every 1-1/2 hours. Far from it. I would be doing just what you are at night....getting as much uninterrupted sleep as I possibly can while the numbers are in the higher range.

The one difference is I never gave R and then didn’t follow up with at least one test. That’s not good because you never know when the R might really kick in. What I’m going to say now is a comment and not a criticism but I wouldn’t shoot R at +6 and go to sleep. I’d just leave it be and not shoot R and get sleep. And that is completely fine!!!! You don’t have to shoot R every time the possibility exists for you to do it.

Does that help?
 
Yes, that helps.

I’d just leave it be and not shoot R and get sleep. And that is completely fine!!!! You don’t have to shoot R every time the possibility exists for you to do it.

I feel that I'm losing an opportunity to bring his glucose down if I don't give R when the possibility exists and that, for his health, I should take every opportunity to bring his glucose down.
I'll test again after giving R.

Thank you!
 
Yes, that helps.
I feel that I'm losing an opportunity to bring his glucose down if I don't give R when the possibility exists and that, for his health, I should take every opportunity to bring his glucose down.
I'll test again after giving R.

Thank you!
You’re welcome. I just wanted to support you so that you don’t feel guilty about not giving R so you can sleep. Sleep is not underrated especially with taking care of our FD kitties so grab it when you can especially if you can get it uninterrupted.
 
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