? 2/6 Bella AMPS 281 calculating carbs in treats??

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JanetMR

JanetMR

Member Since 2017
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...mps-5-125-last-evening-u.190721/#post-2126338

I found purely fancy feast natural hand selected treats in fresh packs.
Crude protein 25 %
Crude fat .5%
Crude fiber .5%
Moisture 70%
Is this ok to give as a treat??? The freeze dried chicken is getting old...(boring)

Are these ok?
Can anyone help me figure out how to find the carb content? Thanks

Bellas hanging in...
Ketones remain negative.
Not sure if I got her insulin in last evening... ( fur shot?) she went to move just as I was giving it.

She was retching last night .. no vomiting
Putting her back on 1/2 pill cerenia
Eating ok.
How do I determine the next step with her?
Does she remain on .25?

Thanks
 
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It looks like to me that she could use more insulin. But, I want the SLGS peeps to look as I am not savvy on the increasing requirements for SLGS.

@carfurby can you look at Bella's SS and see what you think?
 
Yay for more negative keytones! I don't know if this is a thing with Bella, but Asia will gag or vomit clear/foamy liquid if she goes too long without food, for her that's usually 3.5-4 hours. My vet explained it as their stomach starts to release acid in anticipation of food and if none comes, the barf does instead.
 
Stacy & Asia said:
Yay for more negative keytones! I don't know if this is a thing with Bella, but Asia will gag or vomit clear/foamy liquid if she goes too long without food, for her that's usually 3.5-4 hours. My vet explained it as their stomach starts to release acid in anticipation of food and if none comes, the barf does instead.
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Interesting.
I cannot leave food out at night. My two other cats are on different diets.
It would be horrid to have to get up to feed her
Not sleeping enough as it is...
She’s fed at 11 and then 6 am.
:blackeye:
 
JanetMR said:
Interesting.
I cannot leave food out at night. My two other cats are on different diets.
It would be horrid to have to get up to feed her
Not sleeping enough as it is...
She’s fed at 11 and then 6 am.
:blackeye:
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Not saying this is the case for Bella, it's just something to pay attention to. As soon as my vet told me that, I thought of the times Asia had barfed and sure enough it was on the 2 nights a week where we got home a couple hours later than usual so she had late dinners. It wasn't always a problem for Asia either, it seemed to start in her later years.

If you find it to be the cause, there are a few options, one is a supplement that helps with that, as well there are clever ways people have figured out how to feed one cat and not the others, and it usually involves auto feeders, no waking up to feed necessary. ;)
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Talk to your vet about giving her the generic for Pepcid to help with the acid. Don't remember the dose.
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If it were my cat, I would hold off on the Pepcid or any medication/supplement until and if you decide this is the reason for the dry heaving, it should become obvious over time now that it's on your radar if that is the cause or not. It could be for many other reasons too and I believe kitties need their stomach acid, it's a delicate balance. ;)
 
carfurby said:
I would increase tonight or tomorrow morning if you don't feel comfortable increasing at night.
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Ok.
The dose for Pepcid is 2.5mg every 12 hours
I can try it.

I found purely fancy feast natural hand selected treats in fresh packs.
Crude protein 25 %
Crude fat .5%
Crude fiber .5%
Moisture 70%
Is this ok to give as a treat??? The freeze dried chicken is getting old...(boring)
Stacy & Asia said:
If it were my cat, I would hold off on the Pepcid or any medication/supplement until and if you decide this is the reason for the dry heaving, it should become obvious over time now that it's on your radar if that is the cause or not. It could be for many other reasons too and I believe kitties need their stomach acid, it's a delicate balance. ;)
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yes, I will hold off
She does do it at night..occasionally. so the empty stomach does make sense. I’m just not sure what the heck to do about it.
 
JanetMR said:
She does do it at night..occasionally. so the empty stomach does make sense. I’m just not sure what the heck to do about it.
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If you think it's that, Pepcid is certainly an option, I think SEB (slippery elm bark) is another supplement that helps with it, but I'm not certain that was the one and I haven't used it, so I will defer to others who have to chime in.
 
Does anyone have any idea if the fancy feast treats mentioned previously are ok to give her???
 
JanetMR said:
Does anyone have any idea if the fancy feast treats mentioned previously are ok to give her???
Click to expand...

Maybe put a question in your title like "calculating carbs for treats?" or something like that. I know there is a formula for figuring it out but I'm unfamiliar.
 
Six consecutive days of negative ketones! WooHoo!

Still, vigilance is required. Bella IMHO is vulnerable to ketone formation and focus needs to remain on both restoration and regulation.

This is consecutive cycle 8 for .25. We know for certain she is seeing nadirs in the 120s and she is getting used to being under 200, eating well and feeling better in general.

My $0.02:
I think there is room for an increase to .5u. Since it appears that the most recent bounce is clearing I would let today and tonight play out at .25u and consider an increase to .5u in the morning.
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
Six consecutive days of negative ketones! WooHoo!

Still, vigilance is required. Bella IMHO is vulnerable to ketone formation and focus needs to remain on both restoration and regulation.

This is consecutive cycle 8 for .25. We know for certain she is seeing nadirs in the 120s and she is getting used to being under 200, eating well and feeling better in general.

My $0.02:
I think there is room for an increase to .5u. Since it appears that the most recent bounce is clearing I would let today and tonight play out at .25u and consider an increase to .5u in the morning.
Click to expand...

What is IMHO?
I will see how the rest of the day pans out... will increase her to 0.5 in the morning.
Thanks for the feedback.
 
Here is the calculator I use. It is a not "as fed" numbers but if it gives me a number above 10% carb...I just assume it is.

ETA: For SLGS you would hold for 14 cycles. I think there is room for some lower numbers but I would wait a few more cycles, looks a little bit bouncy for me. I don't have any history with keytones, so I am not sure if that is wise or not.
 
Tracey&Jones said:
Here is the calculator I use. It is a not "as fed" numbers but if it gives me a number above 10% carb...I just assume it is.

ETA: For SLGS you would hold for 14 cycles. I think there is room for some lower numbers but I would wait a few more cycles, looks a little bit bouncy for me. I don't have any history with keytones, so I am not sure if that is wise or not.
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Ok.. so that would staying at .25 until Friday evening? A cycle is a dose.. correct?
I think she’s had 8 cycles of .25
She has bounced.. but ketones have been negative since the dose increase to .25.
I’m trying to do what is best... I tend to operate on the side of caution.
 
JanetMR said:
I tend to operate on the side of caution
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I like @Sandy and Black Kitty answer which is the same as I suggested, wait a couple more cycles to see where Bella takes you on the clearing of the bounce and reassess then. Which would bring you close to the 14 cycles. :). Keytones trumps SLGS.


Also on the dry heaves over night - try a freeze dried treat. Works wonders on Jones and my CKD civvie (which is prone to acidic stomach). I give 1 or 2 before bed to help soak up the acid. I was able to stop the Pepcid on my CKD civvie (which is a nightmare to pill) and just use those. I use the Orijen ones. Several different proteins to choose from and simple ingredients without fruit and veggies. I buy the dog ones as it is cheaper and if needed just break in half.
 
Tracey&Jones said:
I like @Sandy and Black Kitty answer which is the same as I suggested, wait a couple more cycles to see where Bella takes you on the clearing of the bounce and reassess then. Which would bring you close to the 14 cycles. :). Keytones trumps SLGS.


Also on the dry heaves over night - try a freeze dried treat. Works wonders on Jones and my CKD civvie (which is prone to acidic stomach). I give 1 or 2 before bed to help soak up the acid. I was able to stop the Pepcid on my CKD civvie (which is a nightmare to pill) and just use those. I use the Orijen ones. Several different proteins to choose from and simple ingredients without fruit and veggies. I buy the dog ones as it is cheaper and if needed just break in half.
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Thanks. I’ll try the freeze dried treats before bedtime.
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
In my humble opinion :cool:
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I’m so frustrated.
My vet does not support me.
She doesn’t understand why I would want to increase Bella’s insulin. She thinks she should be on less!
She’s concerned about the bouncing.
I have tried to explain my reasoning ( especially the importance of the previous appearance of ketones)
She wants me to keep her on .25 and do a curve in a day or two and then re- evaluate the situation.
I know that Bella is different than she was two weeks ago. She’s more active, has more muscle tone, has put on weight... and she has negative ketones!!!!!This would not have happened without being on insulin.
This is the vet that wanted me to “ just let her be a cat” (in other words no insulin and no home testing)
Any thoughts?
I already have been through several vets. ,
I cannot drive distances to find another...
I shouldn’t have to spend all of my time justifying my actions, :( on top of everything else.
 
JanetMR said:
My vet does not support me.[/QUOTE

I am afraid there is a lot of people that have been through this as well. I am little concerned that your vet is not very well versed in FD or DKA at all.


JanetMR said:
She wants me to keep her on .25 and do a curve in a day or two and then re- evaluate the situation
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She isn't saying anything too far off from Sandy - wait a few more cycles to clear the bounce and see from there.

JanetMR said:
She thinks she should be on less!
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Here is where either you keep to what your vet says or go with your gut. This is your cat and ultimately her care is up to you. The vet can provide her medical opinion - and you can either take it or leave it. That said, I know you need a prescription for the insulin.

Have you questioned your vet on how many FD cases she has dealt with? How many DKA cases? What was the general outcome of these cases? Can she refer you to a vet that specialized in cats or has lots of experience with FD?


For me the proof was in the pudding. Jones was on a really low dose before we increased his pred dose.
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I have asked all these questions and more..
I tried to find a vet who had experience with feline diabetes...
I know they “treat it” I see people lined up at the reception area waiting get their animal tested or bring them in for a curve.
I have another vet that I use as a back up. She does home visits and is very easy to work with
( no ego) I might have to use her and have the other vets as an back up. So frustrating!
I know I’m
Doing the right thing.
 
Unfortunately a lot of vets know zip about Feline Diabetes as they got maybe 8 hours of training . Your cat throws ketones so it is very important for them to have enough insulin and dosing needs to be a bit more aggressive than without ketones. Personally, I would not want to see all those pinks that are on her SS and today is her 7th day with this dose. It's your call if you want to wait to see if there is a bounce she is clearing but if she continues in high yellows and pinks at the end of tonight's cycle, I would be all over raising her to .5

As much as you are testing you could be doing TR and change up her dose faster getting her into better numbers faster and helping to prevent ketones.

Stick to your guns with your vet as her advice is not sound and she didn't even support home testing. You are in good company as many of us has vets that did not support home testing and know a lot about Feline Diabetes.

You have come to the right place for help and support.
 
Stacy & Asia said:
If it were my cat, I would hold off on the Pepcid or any medication/supplement until and if you decide this is the reason for the dry heaving, it should become obvious over time now that it's on your radar if that is the cause or not. It could be for many other reasons too and I believe kitties need their stomach acid, it's a delicate balance. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes , they do need some acid and long term use of the Pepcid is not good. Bubba was only on it for a short time .
 
I totally agree with Tracey and Bobbie, and I was in the same boat as you at one point in time (I’ve since switched vets...twice), as I’m sure many of us were. You don’t want to brush off your vets instructions, but you’re just not sure they make sense once you start to do some digging and research (not to mention begin to see results following the methods here). It is tricky.

The home vet sounds like a good option too. Maybe they will be more agreeable to work with you. You really want to have a good partnership with your vet. There was a recent thread about what to look for in vets and it was a great read, @Carol in Chicago ’s post in particular, I will go find it for you. Additionally, one member dealt with their doubting vet by bargaining “Can I try it this way for month and see what happens and then we can do it your way if it’s not working out?” Or something similar to that and I believe their cat went OTJ before the time limit ran out! :p
 
JanetMR said:
Does anyone have any idea if the fancy feast treats mentioned previously are ok to give her???
Click to expand...

These treats are fine for a FD kitty. I have them on hand and have given the to Rose on occasion. I find them to be convenient but very expensive. If you can / want to cook your own plain chicken, this would be a more economical solution, but if you would prefer to use these treats they sure are handy!
 
Stacy & Asia said:
I totally agree with Tracey and Bobbie, and I was in the same boat as you at one point in time (I’ve since switched vets...twice), as I’m sure many of us were. You don’t want to brush off your vets instructions, but you’re just not sure they make sense once you start to do some digging and research (not to mention begin to see results following the methods here). It is tricky.

The home vet sounds like a good option too. Maybe they will be more agreeable to work with you. You really want to have a good partnership with your vet. There was a recent thread about what to look for in vets and it was a great read, @Carol in Chicago ’s post in particular, I will go find it for you. Additionally, one member dealt with their doubting vet by bargaining “Can I try it this way for month and see what happens and then we can do it your way if it’s not working out?” Or something similar to that and I believe their cat went OTJ before the time limit ran out! :p
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Wow. What a powerful negotiating tool.
I appreciate the advice and support.
It’s hard enough to be in this position without the added stress of having to justify my actions.
Thank you!
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Unfortunately a lot of vets know zip about Feline Diabetes as they got maybe 8 hours of training . Your cat throws ketones so it is very important for them to have enough insulin and dosing needs to be a bit more aggressive than without ketones. Personally, I would not want to see all those pinks that are on her SS and today is her 7th day with this dose. It's your call if you want to wait to see if there is a bounce she is clearing but if she continues in high yellows and pinks at the end of tonight's cycle, I would be all over raising her to .5

As much as you are testing you could be doing TR and change up her dose faster getting her into better numbers faster and helping to prevent ketones.

Stick to your guns with your vet as her advice is not sound and she didn't even support home testing. You are in good company as many of us has vets that did not support home testing and know a lot about Feline Diabetes.

You have come to the right place for help and support.[/QUOTE

I will continue to test for ketones and If she is anything except negative I will up her to .5
Otherwise I will give it another day or two.
When I do get some sleep.. all I see in my dreams are blood glucose numbers......
Thanks again for the support.
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Here’s what I’m going to do:
if her ketones remain negative I will given her another day or two at .25
If she shows any evidence of ketones I will increase her dose to .5 despite her vets
protests/recommendations.
Sound reasonable?
:smuggrin:
 
JanetMR said:
A cycle is a dose.. correct?
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A cycle is one twelve hour period, so each day has 2 cycles, the AM and the PM.
JanetMR said:
I know that Bella is different than she was two weeks ago. She’s more active, has more muscle tone, has put on weight... and she has negative ketones!!!!!This would not have happened without being on insulin.
Click to expand...
Truth.
JanetMR said:
This is the vet that wanted me to “ just let her be a cat” (in other words no insulin and no home testing)
Click to expand...
That makes no sense. How does wanting to do all possible to find the path that helps your sick cat become a healthy cat interfere with her being a cat?
JanetMR said:
She’s concerned about the bouncing.
Click to expand...
Bouncing is not hazardous to a kittys health. Ketones on the other hand can rapidly reach life threatening levels.
JanetMR said:
I have another vet that I use as a back up. She does home visits and is very easy to work with
( no ego)
Click to expand...
That's who I would be calling.

You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of folks around here that didn't have difficulties with vets.
I had a heck of a time with vets. I really liked the 3rd one, but my methods freaked her out to the point where she refused to renew BKs Lantus Rx insisting I switch him to Prozinc. Fortunately I got around that and carried on. Also fortunate was that not long after her ultimatum BKs IAA (an idiopathic condition of extreme insulin resistance that self resolves in about 1 year) started to break it's hold and the wild ride down in dose began. No further problems renewing BKs Lantus Rx; from that point forward she and I worked together well.

JanetMR said:
Here’s what I’m going to do:
if her ketones remain negative I will given her another day or two at .25
If she shows any evidence of ketones I will increase her dose to .5 despite her vets
protests/recommendations.
Click to expand...
And if, a day or two on .25u passes and ketones are still negative?

I recommend you read about glucose toxicity and take it also into consideration in making your dosing decisions.
(I know, one more thing to add to the bombardment of info)

JanetMR said:
Her urine ketones remain negative. Just tested.
Click to expand...
Keep it going Bella...:cool:
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
A cycle is one twelve hour period, so each day has 2 cycles, the AM and the PM.
Truth.

That makes no sense. How does wanting to do all possible to find the path that helps your sick cat become a healthy cat interfere with her being a cat?

Bouncing is not hazardous to a kittys health. Ketones on the other hand can rapidly reach life threatening levels.
That's who I would be calling.

You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of folks around here that didn't have difficulties with vets.
I had a heck of a time with vets. I really liked the 3rd one, but my methods freaked her out to the point where she refused to renew BKs Lantus Rx insisting I switch him to Prozinc. Fortunately I got around that and carried on. Also fortunate was that not long after her ultimatum BKs IAA (an idiopathic condition of extreme insulin resistance that self resolves in about 1 year) started to break it's hold and the wild ride down in dose began. No further problems renewing BKs Lantus Rx; from that point forward she and I worked together well.


And if, a day or two on .25u passes and ketones are still negative?

I recommend you read about glucose toxicity and take it also into consideration in making your dosing decisions.
(I know, one more thing to add to the bombardment of info)


Keep it going Bella...:cool:
Click to expand...

I’m up at 4am worrying about what to do...
Bella was 211 at +5 last evening and 295 at + 10 this morning.
I know you can’t tell me what to do... if she were your cat would you give her .25 or .5 this morning?
 
I third that, if you can monitor increase her insulin. You have been very hands on and if you see her going to low, you feed a little bit of food and post for help.
 
JanetMR said:
She was AMPS of 319 + 2. 225
Should I give her high carb food or wait?
Click to expand...

How does she react to high carb? Does it give her a great bump and slow her down a good bit? If yes, it might be too heavy handed. It really depends on the cat. It was a decent drop, I would slow her up a tad, but what food does that is something you need to figure out, maybe low carb or even medium carb would do it? Whatever you decide to try, note it for future reference so you can establish which foods do what for her.

Good call with the increase, it looks like she needed a little nudge in the right direction. Bella is doing really great, I hope she’s feeling a lot better too! :cat:
 
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