2/5 Sandy AMPS 163, 120@+2, 47@+4

Liza do you think you could put what food you feed into the remarks column of the SS if it isn’t too much trouble?
For example for the PMPS you would write “PMPS FF13% more than 2 oz.” then add what you feed at +1 +2 etc.
That way we can look at the BGs and the food intake and carbs and that tells us a lot.
If it’s only written in the thread it gets lost over time. Thank you:)
 
Hi Liza, I'm glad to see that Sandy stayed flat after I left you. Bron and Gill gave you excellent feedback. Sometimes seeing what % carbs works or doesn't work gives you information for next time. Just getting some things organized for my crew this morning, then I'll pop back to see how you are going.

ETA that also includes coffee for me, since I've had to come back to correct about 5 spelling mistakes.
 
Hi am back, I was just sorting lunch out

Liza Morales said:
But since he’s eating better, if he drops again with this cycle do you think I should just give a drop per day?
Click to expand...
We will have to see.
What would ideally would happen is that he stay in normal numbers for a week and then all being well he could start a trial.

I see with the +1 he is slightly lower, so no spike in BG after his Breakfast, more flat than drop.
Do you think you could give him some MC now for a snack, (12%-15% I believe you have) or HC
scan him after 30min. See what he is doing, incase we need to stall him with something a bit higher in carbs.
 
How is he acting?
will he eat some of the kibble?
Try raising the bowl, on some books perhaps, if he is feeling a bit nauseous that can help. putting their heads down can make them feel sick
 
Gill & George said:
How is he acting?
will he eat some of the kibble?
Try raising the bowl, on some books perhaps, if he is feeling a bit nauseous that can help. putting their heads down can make them feel sick
Click to expand...
He’s acting sluggish but I fed again and he ate some this time. About 2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy. Now he’s laying in a sunny spot
 
When he drops below 40 especially when he is early in the cycle, and especially Sandy.
13% is not enough carbs.
As that is the only thing that he will eat you need to bump the carbs up by adding some syrup to the food. mixing it in.

From your response above he had a bit of syrup in the gums but none in the food?

I would scan him again about 15min after the last scan and snack so +2.45 (in about 5 min by my reckoning)
 
Gill & George said:
When he drops below 40 especially when he is early in the cycle, and especially Sandy.
13% is not enough carbs.
As that is the only thing that he will eat you need to bump the carbs up by adding some syrup to the food. mixing it in.

From your response above he had a bit of syrup in the gums but none in the food?

I would scan him again about 15min after the last scan and snack so +2.45 (in about 5 min by my reckoning)
Click to expand...
Just scanned him right now he just hit the +3 mark, he came up to 52.
And yes syrup on his gums not on food.
I put it in his food yesterday when this happens and he wouldn’t eat it. I opened another can of food for him to eat at the point.
So this time I just put it on his gums. Not sure if that what made him come up or the food he ate. Going to scan him every 1/2 hour.
I just gave him some dry snacks and he ate them.
 
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
Ok if he will eat another teaspoon or two of the 13% with a drop of honey I would give that to him now.
If he refuses that perhaps try a couple of teaspoons of kibble.
It's early in the cycle and we just want to give him a good bump of carbs
 
Liza Morales said:
I put it in his food yesterday when this happens and he wouldn’t eat it. I
Click to expand...
if it is corn syrup it can make them feel icky if you use too much. I used to use honey, and add it to 24% carb food on days like this.
(George wasn't veery sensitive to carbs)

Liza Morales said:
So this time I just put it on his gums
Click to expand...
That usually gets absorbed quite quickly, but equally it can wear off quickly too.
Liza Morales said:
I just gave him some dry snacks and he ate them.
Click to expand...
Excellent
Liza Morales said:
Not sure if that what made him come up or the food he ate. Going to scan him every 1/2 hour.
Click to expand...
Could you scan him 15 minutes after +3 so at +3.25

  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 50 , had some kibble
 
Gill & George said:
I'm so happy he ate for you and aside from that drop to 47 he did have a decent cycle, he came up nicely, you were not having to fight as hard as on 2/4, so that is positive.

I know you have given some when he was low on 2/4 am cycle.
But when exactly did you stop regularly mixing the dry in with his food? (could you mark it and highlight it on the SS please when you get a mo)
If you have had to give dry or the temptations either to encourage him to eat or to keep his numbers up, please note that on the SS as well as what time he had them, it helps us to assess the SS to be able to see if you've had to take 'extreme measures', we can look at those numbers and see how they relate to the food he has had, ideally it would be good to see what you fed and when on the SS at a glance, to see what is working for him at what isn't.
(I'm sorry to ask you to do a little more admin, you have been working tirelessly for Sandy, I wouldn't ask but I think it will help us help you better)

To give you an example of what I mean.
For instance I know you fed a teaspoon of +1 from reading through the posts, but I don't know what carb's it was.... maybe a higher carb than whatever you fed, might have slowed him down a bit more....???
What did you feed with the 47? I have to look through the thread, posts 142 through to 154 to figure out you gave 12% with a drop of syrup. Then look at the SS trying to remember that info, and relate that to the numbers we are seeing, which is fine I can do that, but what happens in a day or two, if I, or someone else, want to see what worked for Sandy? or didn't work for sandy?
It becomes very difficult and it will delay the advice.:)

I'm really impressed with all your tireless work you are a very dedicated sugar mom, and all without a word of complaint:bighug:
Click to expand...
Sorry I must of missed this message. Sorry I haven’t put it on the SS sheet these past couple of days. It’s been really stressful and I haven’t gotten much sleep. These drops have been going on for few days now and because of it I’m up monitoring him for hours on end and just trying to get food into him to raise his numbers.
I had been mixing the kibble because I was trying to keep his numbers above 200 so that he wouldn’t drop down into the 40’s. It was only a small amount I was mixing in wet to get him to start eating. After I was told to stop doing it I stoped. The last day was feb first. I can see on the SS that after that his numbers came lower. Which is great but now his drops are lower.
It’s like I’m caught between two walls.
He needs to stay on insulin because of the recent DKA, but the only way I was managing that was to keep him above the 200.
His body doesn’t seem to be needing the insulin but he needs to stay on it I understand but then these drops.
I can’t win
 
Liza Morales said:
Sorry I must of missed this message. Sorry I haven’t put it on the SS sheet these past couple of days
Click to expand...
No problem, I know it's been incredibly tiring for you.
That's why I was just recapping them in the post, so everyone can follow, and it doesn't add to your workload, you can add it to the SS later.
Liza Morales said:
The last day was feb first. I can see on the SS that after that his numbers came lower. Which is great but now his drops are lower.
Click to expand...
That is what I was wondering. I think it has changed his insulin needs, and why we have seen this shift. We have seen a members kitty go from 5u to no insulin in just 24hrs (he was only stealing a few bits of kibble of the civies)
It is better that he is not having kibble regularly. (use it if you have to like today).

He is very recently diagnosed, did he just get sick? or did he have steroids just before or some infection that triggered the diabetes, and then DKA? (am I right in thinking pancreatitis has been mentioned?)
Liza Morales said:
It’s like I’m caught between two walls.
Click to expand...
rock and a hard place:confused:
Liza Morales said:
His body doesn’t seem to be needing the insulin but he needs to stay on it I understand but then these drops.
Click to expand...
He may have started producing his own insulin.

One other question, When was he fitted with the Libre??
 
Ok
Gill & George said:
No problem, I know it's been incredibly tiring for you.
That's why I was just recapping them in the post, so everyone can follow, and it doesn't add to your workload, you can add it to the SS later.

That is what I was wondering. I think it has changed his insulin needs, and why we have seen this shift. We have seen a members kitty go from 5u to no insulin in just 24hrs (he was only stealing a few bits of kibble of the civies)
It is better that he is not having kibble regularly. (use it if you have to like today).

He is very recently diagnosed, did he just get sick? or did he have steroids just before or some infection that triggered the diabetes, and then DKA? (am I right in thinking pancreatitis has been mentioned?)

rock and a hard place:confused:

He may have started producing his own insulin.

One other question, When was he fitted with the Libre??
Click to expand...
jan 8th I took him for a sick visit he was stuffy and had mucus. I was told he had a kitty cold. I voiced my concern that his gums looked pale, see looked dehydrated to me. He wasn’t eating or drinking much, just sitting over the bowls. Vet told me they need their smell to eat, sent me home with antibiotics. This only made him extremely dry, his nose was so dried up, no more mucus, and he was breathing through his mouth. I called again and was told keep giving him the antibiotics.antibiotics only made him more dehydrated. Vet told me at that point his glucose was 480 so he was probably a diabetic made another appointment to confirm.
It never dawned on him, glucose 480, he has an infection this could be bad.....I never knew this until after the fact as I know nothing about diabetes.
4 days in and I was rushing him to to ER, diagnosed with DKA. Spent 5 days with 24/7 care. He was so bad 2nd day I made decision to put to sleep. That night his blood improved slightly so I kept trying. Now here we are.
 
Liza Morales said:
Ok

jan 8th I took him for a sick visit he was stuffy and had mucus. I was told he had a kitty cold. I voiced my concern that his gums looked pale, see looked dehydrated to me. He wasn’t eating or drinking much, just sitting over the bowls. Vet told me they need their smell to eat, sent me home with antibiotics. This only made him extremely dry, his nose was so dried up, no more mucus, and he was breathing through his mouth. I called again and was told keep giving him the antibiotics.antibiotics only made him more dehydrated. Vet told me at that point his glucose was 480 so he was probably a diabetic made another appointment to confirm.
It never dawned on him, glucose 480, he has an infection this could be bad.....I never knew this until after the fact as I know nothing about diabetes.
4 days in and I was rushing him to to ER, diagnosed with DKA. Spent 5 days with 24/7 care. He was so bad 2nd day I made decision to put to sleep. That night his blood improved slightly so I kept trying. Now here we are.
Click to expand...
thanks for the background.
Poor Chap, and poor you!
So he's doing better, and you have had a very very steep learning curve with DKA and Diabetes.


What is he at his +3.5 scan?
 
Just saw the update on the SS
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 some syrup or honey on gums and some food (maybe the 13% if he'll have it if not give him a little kibble)
 
Gill & George said:
thanks for the background.
Poor Chap, and poor you!
So he's doing better, and you have had a very very steep learning curve with DKA and Diabetes.


What is he at his +3.5 scan?
Click to expand...
Was 49. I also added in the food on SS.
Now is is sleeping so I’m going to get him to eat at moment, but he looks ok. His +4 is coming up in 7 minutes I will post it in SS
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Liza, you are doing an amazing job, I'm sorry to read some of the history, what a tough journey for both of you so far :bighug:

Hoping you can get a test shortly.
Click to expand...
Thank you I’m trying but I have fallen asleep couple times when I shouldn’t because I’m so tired and I know something bad will happen if this continues this way. I’m falling asleep just about anywhere right now it’s ridiculous ☹️.
 
Liza Morales said:
Was 49. I also added in the food on SS.
Click to expand...
brilliant thanks
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble.
    Liza Morales said:
    Tested for ketones as well, negative
    Click to expand...
YAY!!!:woot::woot: thats what we like to see

Liza Morales said:
I’m falling asleep just about anywhere right now it’s ridiculous ☹️.
Click to expand...
What time is it there?
You must feel like you are in the twilight zone after the few days you have had.
 
Gill & George said:
brilliant thanks
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble.
YAY!!!:woot::woot: thats what we like to see


What time is it there?
You must feel like you are in the twilight zone after the few days you have had.
Click to expand...
Yes I sure do. It’s 10:50am. I know the cycle he’s in says pm, but it’s because his am got bumped to pm because of the delays I had to do.
 
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble.
  • +4 40 ???
rub some syrup on gums and some more kibble.

How much is having?
 
At this point I think his body just doesn’t want the insulin. I was told ff pate. Numbers drop
use 8% carbs . Numbers drop
Med carbs. Numbers drop.
I don’t think this is a good idea to keep giving him insulin if his body is not agreeing to it.
Seems the only thing keeps his numbers up is dry and even at that his numbers were dropping to 60 at some points.
can I just try ff pate and gravy and see how his numbers are with no more insulin?
I know it’s dangerous but isn’t this dangerous also?
 
Liza Morales said:
I don’t think this is a good idea to keep giving him insulin if his body is not agreeing to it.
Click to expand...
I am thinking he is trying to tell us this.
Liza Morales said:
can I just try ff pate and gravy and see how his numbers are with no more insulin?
I know it’s dangerous but isn’t this dangerous also?
Click to expand...
He needs insulin, but it doesn't matter if the insulin is the one his body is producing, or that being injected.
He is very newly diagnosed, and possibly after he has got over his acute infection his pancreas has recovered enough to go solo, especially now you have reduced the carb load. Yes both things are risky.
Liza Morales said:
Again and it bumped him up to 48
Click to expand...
The kibble will take a little longer to get into his system. so that's possibly the syrup, scan him in 15min.

How is he feeling
 
Gill & George said:
I am thinking he is trying to tell us this.

He needs insulin, but it doesn't matter if the insulin is the one his body is producing, or that being injected.
He is very newly diagnosed, and possibly after he has got over his acute infection his pancreas has recovered enough to go solo, especially now you have reduced the carb load. Yes both things are risky.

The kibble will take a little longer to get into his system. so that's possibly the syrup, scan him in 15min.

How is he feeling
Click to expand...
He looks like he’s sleeping but he’s not his eyes are open. Just looks sluggish. He only had about 1 teaspoon of kibble. I think this was my last try. I can’t keep doing this to him. He’s been dropping in low numbers after **** consistently. So now I know it’s not insulin from previous cycle staying in his body.
 
He is definitely doing things his own way, it is often hard to know how the kitty will respond to such a small amount of insulin. As Gill said, there may be some things kicking in now, and we can see that he is having a hard time staying up above 50 even with the carb intervention.
 
Gill & George said:
I am thinking he is trying to tell us this.

He needs insulin, but it doesn't matter if the insulin is the one his body is producing, or that being injected.
He is very newly diagnosed, and possibly after he has got over his acute infection his pancreas has recovered enough to go solo, especially now you have reduced the carb load. Yes both things are risky.

The kibble will take a little longer to get into his system. so that's possibly the syrup, scan him in 15min.

How is he feeling
Click to expand...
Yes I understand just this extra insulin he doesn’t need. When I skipped the dose he didn’t drop. So I’m just not going to give this to him anymore. I feel like I’m hurting him more than helping
 
Christie & Maverick said:
He is definitely doing things his own way, it is often hard to know how the kitty will respond to such a small amount of insulin. As Gill said, there may be some things kicking in now, and we can see that he is having a hard time staying up above 50 even with the carb intervention.
Click to expand...
Yes and when I skipped a dose yesterday he was fine on his own. I know it’s too soon because of the DKA but this just isn’t working. I e gotten the food I’ve been told, have followed directions and Sandy is just doing it in his own. I m not going to give him next dose. I can’t keep doing this to him. If the ketones creep I’ll deal with that and getting fluids into him if I have to. These low numbers are too much too often. I can’t deal with this every cycle and I know he can’t either because he’s getting down and I’m shoving syrups in his mouth.
I feel like I’m doing to things that will just cancel themselves out if I stop both.
Giving insulin drops his number
Giving syrup to raise his number
 
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble. teaspoon
  • +4 40 syrup/
  • +4.25 lo syrup / 5-10min later 48
Liza Morales said:
He only had about 1 teaspoon of kibble.
Click to expand...
do you think you could offer him another teaspoon of kibble, if it was almost an hour ago that he had some.

I see +4.5 60!

Liza Morales said:
When I skipped the dose he didn’t drop. So I’m just not going to give this to him anymore. I feel like I’m hurting him more than helping
Click to expand...
I understand how you feel, when you skipped he didn't drop but he wasn't in a normal numbers range. It may just have taken him a time to get the dry out of his system again.
I don't think you are hurting him, the added insulin support to the pancreas will be helping it heal. Though perhaps he's fed up of his bean helicoptering.
With the way this cycle has gone I think that you have to try and see if he is done with insulin. Keeping an eye on his food intake, BG and more importantly ketones. and see if he will go OTJ and stay there.

thats a long way of saying I think you should try a skip, next dose and lets perhaps take the next step and try an OTJ trial.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with Gill, sometimes when they are done with insulin, they make an emphatic point about it. Most kitties go through a gradual progression or reduced doses, but Sandy seems to have other plans.
 
Gill & George said:
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble. teaspoon
  • +4 40 syrup/
  • +4.25 lo syrup / 5-10min later 48
do you think you could offer him another teaspoon of kibble, if it was almost an hour ago that he had some.

I see +4.5 60!


I understand how you feel, when you skipped he didn't drop but he wasn't in a normal numbers range. It may just have taken him a time to get the dry out of his system again.
I don't think you are hurting him, the added insulin support to the pancreas will be helping it heal. Though perhaps he's fed up of his bean helicoptering.
With the way this cycle has gone I think that you have to try and see if he is done with insulin. Keeping an eye on his food intake, BG and more importantly ketones. and see if he will go OTJ and stay there.
Click to expand...
I know he was checked throughly and I even asked them to do a scan. He has no issues with his pancreas that I was told of. I asked for bloodwork to check everything. I’m not sure how all these organs work, but I can’t physically stay up monitoring 24/7 like I have been for too much longer. He’s going to have a drop and I’m just going to sleep through one of them at some point. He’s going to be on the ff pate and I’ll see how his numbers are. Probably will not be in normal range but what dose can I give under a drop? I really don’t want to keep injecting him if this is what keeps happening
 
Gill & George said:
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble. teaspoon
  • +4 40 syrup/
  • +4.25 lo syrup / 5-10min later 48
do you think you could offer him another teaspoon of kibble, if it was almost an hour ago that he had some.

I see +4.5 60!


I understand how you feel, when you skipped he didn't drop but he wasn't in a normal numbers range. It may just have taken him a time to get the dry out of his system again.
I don't think you are hurting him, the added insulin support to the pancreas will be helping it heal. Though perhaps he's fed up of his bean helicoptering.
With the way this cycle has gone I think that you have to try and see if he is done with insulin. Keeping an eye on his food intake, BG and more importantly ketones. and see if he will go OTJ and stay there.

thats a long way of saying I think you should try a skip, next dose and lets perhaps take the next step and try an OTJ trial.
Click to expand...
I gave him some honey which is why I thing he got that boost. I’m trying to feed him now but he’s not interested. He’s had good meals so far. His +5 is coming up in 15 minutes I just scanned again and he’s at 55
 
Gill & George said:
  • pmps almost a whole can (13% carbs).
  • +1 97 snack??? 13% carbs
  • +2 47 syrup on gums
  • +2.5 40 ???2 table spoons of ff turkey in gravy 13%
  • +3 52 , had some kibble
  • +3.5 49 kibble. teaspoon
  • +4 40 syrup/
  • +4.25 lo syrup / 5-10min later 48
do you think you could offer him another teaspoon of kibble, if it was almost an hour ago that he had some.

I see +4.5 60!


I understand how you feel, when you skipped he didn't drop but he wasn't in a normal numbers range. It may just have taken him a time to get the dry out of his system again.
I don't think you are hurting him, the added insulin support to the pancreas will be helping it heal. Though perhaps he's fed up of his bean helicoptering.
With the way this cycle has gone I think that you have to try and see if he is done with insulin. Keeping an eye on his food intake, BG and more importantly ketones. and see if he will go OTJ and stay there.

thats a long way of saying I think you should try a skip, next dose and lets perhaps take the next step and try an OTJ trial.
Click to expand...
Yes I’m skipping next dose, he had some kibble this cycle so that may stay in his system again now. So I’m going to push to the next cycle to skip as well, I’ll keep checking for ketones as well, I’ll do another later on today.
 
Liza Morales said:
He has no issues with his pancreas that I was told of
Click to expand...
Well the pancreas is the prime organ responsible for the production of insulin, more particularly the Beta Cells. The high glucose was and indication of this. He may have been prediabetic and the infection triggered the diabetes, which as the infection clears, then they can returns to normal on their own or with a little help from insulin injections. The problem was is that he wasn't eating and got dehydrated as well... perfect DKA storm.
Liza Morales said:
I gave him some honey which is why I thing he got that boost. I’m trying to feed him now but he’s not interested. He’s had good meals so far. His +5 is coming up in 15 minutes I just scanned again and he’s at 55
Click to expand...
That's good he's eaten. keep offering the food.

I have to nip out to walk my dogs now.
Christie is here with you. I'll see you in an hour or two when I've finished the walk and feeding the dogs, chickens and cats.:rolleyes:
Liza Morales said:
he had some kibble this cycle so that may stay in his system again now.
Click to expand...

It might, but we can keep that in mind.
 
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