2/26 Munchie +6 246 +9 521- bounce question

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ewest

ewest

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Bouncing again...is this a weird bounce - she had a bounce from the blue yesterday with her PMPS of 400 (which for her was a less harsh bounce- just in the 400's). Then she got in the yellows earlier today so seemed like might be clearing up, but then shot up after +6.

Do folks know of things that help reduce the bouncing? I've read some talk about using carbs to try to counter this- for her I'm not sure if that would work as she's really not getting that low and she's still bouncing (she's currently on no-carb diet for pancreatitis and kidney condition). Are there other things that can help with the bounces that folks know of?

Trying to figure out if there's a way to help her bounce less- she has managed to have less intense bounces in the past (late December and January were better for her)...and also when I should increase her as it's hard to know when her bounces "clear"...though my fear with increasing is she may just bounce even harder if she gets greens???
 
bouncing is caused by 2 things - either they went too fast down with their BG - like dropped 200 points in an hour, or from hitting a range that's lower than their body is accustomed too.

yes, there are several people who try to use carbs to steer the numbers. for cats that are fast divers they might give higher carbs mini-meals at preshot, +1, +2, +3 - that kind of thing. for cats that are bouncing from hitting a lower range than they are used to, you can give either more low carb food or some higher carb food to try to stop them from going any lower.

i've been playing with that and haven't gotten it figured out yet with punkin. yesterday he got an extra :oops: 9 oz of low carb food as i was trying to slow him down, but he bounced anyway. perhaps at the next opportunity i'll try giving some high carbs at 200 (as counter-intuitive as that may sound) instead of just giving more volume of the low carb.

i'm sure others with more experience with food-steering than i have will be along to give you some ideas. this is one of those things that you'll have to experiment with to see what works for munchie.
 
Hi Elizabeth:

Julie is correct....you can frontload the cycle in two ways as she stated. You can divide up her normal portion of food into minimeals and feed over a few hours. Some people have luck with PS, +1, +2, +3 and others have different feeding schedules like PS, +2, +3, +4. And still others find that dividing up the kitty's portion into two large meals early in the cycle helps .....all of this is designed to help diving kitties.

For kitties who go low, you can do another type of food loading. If, for instance, Munchie likes to go low at +4, then you could feed a higher carb portion of food right before the +4....perhaps at +3....in order to flatten the cycle a little more.

However, it is a fact that many cats who have had high numbers for a while will bounce any time at all you get into numbers the liver has come to perceive as "unsafe". That's what I see happening with Munchie....when she gets into blue...which her liver obviously doesn't like right now....it releases counterregulatory hormones and a form of glycogen to counteract those "scary" numbers.

I've seen it said many times in LL that a kitty will bounce until it doesn't. We can use food to help but kitty may still bounce; take a look at some of the SSs where food management is being done and kitty is still bouncing: Gracie, Mannie, Tess, Gabby......hopefully one day they will all stop and just see lovely blues and greens :-D
 
Elizabeth.....quick question, please. Just trying to determine if you are doing SLGS or TR protocol so we can talk about dosing. Thank you!!!
 
i apologize - i was focused on your question alone and didn't even look at munchie's spreadsheet. you haven't seen a green number in a month, and although you've increased the dose, elizabeth, i think you gotta keep marching along upward a little more often. even with bouncing, just following the protocol may help get some better numbers for munchie.


ah - i see marje has posted asking about what kind of protocol you're following. i was assuming the Rand/Roomp.
 
I'm not sure that Munchie is a stage where food is going to address the issue. Usually, it's not so much food that helps to manage bouncing, it's usually insulin that helps. I think Munchie needs more insulin. You just need to wait until she clears the bounce.

I'm not sure I understand why you are on a no carb diet for either pancreatitis or kidney issues. The more recent research has not supported dietary intervention for pancreatitis and the older research didn't consider carbs to be an issue. With renal diets, phosphorus is more the issue.

While some cats are very carb sensitive, other cats can do better if there are some carbs in their diet or it may make no difference. For example, I was feeding Gabby a raw diet. It was very close to zero carbs. When I switched her to Wellness (4% carb), there was no appreciable change in her numbers.
 
Re: 2/26 Munchie PMPS 565- bounce question

Thanks all. So, yes, I was thinking she needs more insulin too and was hoping that would help with her bounces. Actually, on the 1.75 her pre-shots have been less bouncy which is good.

In terms of what I'm following, I'm trying to follow the tight regulation protocol but have done a slower approach at times when conferring with my vet (and I was confused with understanding the protocol in terms of when to stop increasing so had made some mistakes there I think). Am trying to do my best understanding all the points of view, but have been trying to go with tight regulation protocol. Feeling kinda bad it's taking this long to help her get in better numbers which is probably due in part to me not understanding increasing/decreasing...trying not to blame self... (and getting odd information from vets who told me to stop testing and that her numbers looked good to them - goodness).

In terms of the recent increases starting on the 16th, I was trying to follow the protocol of waiting 6 cycles and then increase unless there's a bounce. On the most recent dose I didn't increase after 6 because of the bounce and am trying to tell when it's cleared so that I can increase. I do get confused in terms of when to tell that she's stopped bouncing. I tend to prefer to increase her on a cycle when I'm home...so that would be a PM cycle for this week...but could try an AM as well I just wouldn't be able to monitor well (might be able to get home for a +6). If anyone has feedback on when to tell she's cleared, let me know. PMPS tonight still shows the bounce- 565 (wah).

Also just to add, because her PMPS is so high, she's may get into 300's tonight or even 200's and that drop may cause another bounce--- so this leaves me in a place of feeling like I may need to increase during a bounce because she may just keep bouncing. Thoughts???

Thanks so much for the help!
 
oh i hear ya! it can be really hard to figure out when to increase when you've got a lot of bouncing. my best suggestion is when you see the next test that you think has cleared the bounce, post in the subject line "should i increase now?" and someone can look at her ss and tell you if it's a good time. the other day i saw someone's advice was "the next time you have a preshot that's blue, increase." so perhaps there is something like that.

see what others suggest about that. it's complicated, isn't it?!
 
Elizabeth:

I'd like to get some input on increasing her dose. I understand your concern and I'm concerned, like Sienne, that she is at these high numbers. She could be bouncing from that 186 but even so it looks like she has
some room to increase and I'm worried about her being DKA prone.

I'll get back to you shortly. Thanks for your patience.
 
I think Julie's suggestion is a good one....as soon as you see numbers start to come down into low yellos or blues..ask for dose help.

The other thing that we always recommend for lantus kitties is that you get a +2 test as. Often as you possibly can. If its not close to the preshot number, then you should be on alert that she might have an active cycle and drop.
 
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